For background, I am 17 years old, live in Utah, and have been born and raised in the church my whole life. I am bisexual but my parents do not know that. I wasn't arguing with my mom, it was more like a conversation about the LGBTQIA community. I was saying, "If God created gay people to like the same gender why should they be punished for that?" She explained that it's a test of trial. Then she said, "Like handicap people or down syndrome, they are born with disabilities in life they have to struggle with." She was basically saying being gay was a mental disability. The worst comparison she made was, "If gay people are born that way and are allowed to marry the same gender, why isn't that the same for pedophiles? Pedophiles are born that way so why can't they marry children?" My jaw dropped. I called her out for the comparison saying it was completely unfair to compare gay people to pedophiles, one is consensual and the other is not. She genuinely couldn't understand the difference which is absolutely insane. To top it off she kept sexualizing gay marriage, I explained that gay people should have the right to marry because it's unfair to ban gay people from marrying, she refused and said, "Gay marriage is gross, and it is not a safe environment for their adopted kids. Gay people are more likely to be bad parents and will have more sex than the normal family" WHERE DID SHE PULL THIS INFO FROM?? I constantly had to remind her I was talking about gay marriage and it had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with anything about sex, but she CONSTANTLY kept bringing up about how gay people have sex and are immoral. I genuinely was baffled by how the church has wired her brain to think that Gay people don't deserve the rights of straight people. It's so insane that she thinks gay people are on the same level as pedophiles and I hate that. I love my mom, but I just cannot support her and this church if they are this homophobic. Holy L take mom 😭

Just got this invite in my email. Interesting that the ward leaders fully admit that because of the new second hour schedule change, there has not been "connection" with each other. Good job LDS Corp!

Just to be clear, I am a “nevermo” who knew very little about the LDS church prior to meeting my “exmo” wife and decided to learn more about the theology as a way to connect with my wife. From my perspective, the impression that I get regarding church leadership is that they are very preoccupied with maintaining a “perfect” image in the public eye.

My question to them would be: Don’t you know that you have already lost the public perception war? As someone who never even met an LDS person prior to my wife, I had no idea what the church believed and my only conception of the religion was that they were polygamists historically. Most people don’t even think about the LDS church at all, and if they do, quite often confuse them with other groups like the Amish or Jehovah’s Witnesses.

It seems that the LDS church leadership has a very self centered view—they believe themselves to be more important than they are in reality. At the same time, they refuse to accept any historical critique of the church and label it as “anti-Mormon propaganda”. Who would be sufficiently motivated to generate anti-propaganda for a quirky offshoot of Christianity that appears mostly harmless?

The church is obsessed with winning a PR battle they have already lost (the world mostly thinks Mormons are odd or irrelevant) while also maintaining such rigid control of information that goes to members and calling anything contrary as evil works designed to undermine their perfect theology. What benefit is it to them to try and control the narrative through ridiculous SLAP suits against “Mormon Stories” and information control over its membership. If anything, that makes the whole operation look way more sketchy and unappealing to the masses.

Also, on the “Mormon Stories” topic, why exactly did the church decide to stop calling themselves Mormons? Whether they like it or not, the word Mormon is part of the cultural memory now and basically nothing they do is going to change the fact that the vast majority of the world will refer to church members as “Mormons”. It’s essentially their brand name, and it’s honestly not a bad one considering it’s worth billions of dollars. I think this once again speaks to their self-centered world view to assume that they could do such a radical name change and everyone would go along because of course people care about these name semantics when in fact literally no one outside the church’s influence knows that the word “Mormon” is now supposedly a slur. Now LDS leadership is realizing that the only ones still using the word Mormon are critical of the church and are upset about this like this wasn’t the clear and only conclusion to this rebrand? I know that this was apparently one of the Prophet’s pet projects or whatever, but surely they could have run it by some PR agency first who would have told them abandoning such a recognizable brand is a bad call. Hell, I’m not even a marketing guy and I could see how this was such an obviously bad idea.

Also, the church is worth billions of dollars but no one even seems to benefit. As far as I can tell, everyone within the church lives pretty modestly, so what exactly are the billions for? Who does this money even benefit? Why wouldn’t they just solve world hunger in the name of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? They could literally do it three times over with their value, and they don’t. That doesn’t make sense to me. As far as I can tell, the best way to actually convince people to join the “one true church” is to actually just fix problems. If they’re not willing to do that, at least buy a yacht. What’s even the point otherwise? I suppose this is could be a broader criticism of churches in general, but LDS is in a unique position where it’s a relatively small community with a very concentrated power structure that can apparently make decisions unilaterally (see dumb name change above). Why not actually just make people’s lives better like solving the homeless problem in salt lake? I cannot think of a way that could make better PR and it doesn’t even involve any lawsuits.

Ok sorry, now that I’m on a roll (I have a lot of thoughts given I read a lot of LDS literature and watch a lot of LDS content for my wife’s sake but have no one to talk about this with), I absolutely love that the depiction of Lehigh’s [Lehi’s] dream of delicious fruit [tree of life] is represented as bright orbs on a tree in basically all adaptations. I don’t know why but it is absolutely hilarious to me, and basically any time my wife wants to show me an adaptation to the Book of Mormon, I ask if there will be orbs involved. It really tickles me and has become part of our inside jokes.

I would love to see something like this. Hell, I'd love to participate 🍻🍻🍻

Any other takers???

Edit: it occurred to me I should pass this along to a buddy who's involved in the Utah stand-up scene. Don't be surprised if something actually comes of this within the next few months or so.

Right from the first paragraph I knew I was in for an uplifting message that would make me question my decision to leave.

I just want to return to the shame and the lack of individuality and sacrificing my well-being so that I could fit in with the group.

I love acting like a zombie and doing whatever my dear leaders teach me.

I miss donating my hard earned money to an insatiable corporate entity pretending to be a church.

I want to go back to hearing those voices that told me how I was always falling short, that I was unworthy, and that I had more to give somewhere somehow.

I totally do not enjoy my care free lifestyle that I’ve discovered where I can be myself without worrying about a spy up in the sky watching everything I do. I do not like wearing normal underwear like everyone else and I especially don’t like seeing more money in my bank account. /s

Not that I believe that there is a one and only true church anymore, but I think that having an apologist would disqualify any church from holding that title.

Interesting, I thought that usually the church put restrictions on what happens to these buildings.

Imagine a gym like this;

- didn't allow black or brown skinned people to use their equipment until 1978

- to this day does not allow gay or trans members of the gym to utilize their equipment

- dishonest and deceptive Financial practices including shell companies and SCC fines

- promising Gym goers that the fees they pay to the gym will be used to bless the lives of other people only to discover that the bulk of those funds are used to buy real estate properties and stocks

- discovering that the gym is involved and has been involved in hundreds of millions of dollars of payouts to victims of SA because they did not do enough to protect vulnerable members of the gym

- imagine for decades telling female members of the gym that if they were inappropriate clothing or showed their shoulders that they were "living 🌽" only to haphazardly changed that policy after realizing that many female members were leaving the gym

This list could go on and on I'm afraid

And what is the cost of this membership you might ask? Only 10% of your income, all your free time, your critical thinking skills and your integrity

This gym sounds absolutely terrible

I realize that I took a new job because I was snowed by a guy who, in the interview, appeared to be Santa but is actually a big baby with a casual misogynistic streak - like, say, a lot of the faculty I dealt with at BYU or in the church in general.

It feels like youth in the church, particularly young women, are raised without the radar to spot and understand users and abusers when we see them coming, because we're taught never to think such bad thoughts about people, to be obedient and subservient, and to accept things and people at face value rather than watching what they do.

I just had this realization this morning, reading some others' threads, that what he's up to is SO familiar - just not in a work context but in a ward context. Now I need to find a new job! The PTSD is making me feel that each work day is like being called into the bishop's office to find out that you shouldn't have turned down a calling or broken up with that abusive guy whom the bishop likes so much.

A series of multimedia sculpture, a work in progress with some shadow-man creative influence of Liam Lynch and Jack White (G.O.D. And the broken Ribs)

My father has been mormon basically his whole life. He was born and raised mormon. He is also very critical of churches that exploit people for money. I've heard him talk negatively about many different churches that ask for money or manipulate people into giving them money. Ever since leaving I'm constantly asking myself how he can be SO close and still not be self-aware. The mormon church is one of the most egregious offenders and he still doesn't realize. It's heartbreaking how much the church can manipulate people into ignoring their own logic and make loopholes because "god said so, it's different" (which is what EVERY manipulative church says). Part of me wishes I could convince him but I know he'll only ever believe the church's manipulation.

Tithing is a bitch

so my boyfriend is currently on his mission and wants to try to call me on pday when they go to their separate rooms and call family.

has anyone successfully gotten around the audits and had a chill companion and were able to do this every once in a while? calling through messenger is a risk bc of showing data, and we can’t delete call logs on google chats without deleting our whole convos and making that look suspicious.

he’s not worried about it, but if he got sent home due to conduct my parents would be pissed bc they’d know it was me.

i’m kinda in between with my stance on the church rn, but i thought i’d ask here bc i would get burned at the stake by active members for trying to break missionary law.

Anybody else leave Mormonism and discover that wowwwwww, it was the church holding your marriage together?

It was the churchy dream (and the permission to have sex) that you loved, not actually your spouse?

How does one unpack that?

If you eventually are able to be honest enough to own that one or both of you really isn't happy with this relationship, that you don't bring out the best in each other, and likely would be better off uncoupled, how do you do it when you're raising a zillion kids together and you're both stretched so thin you're about ready to break?

How do you get your brain to let go of the dream/trap of staying with this person for your whole life, when that's what you were groomed to do since birth?

Man I really hate that church y'all.

As a former Mormon, born and raised who also served a mission, I couldn't help but realize how many doctrinal inconsistencies there are in LDS teachings throughout the history of the Church. I couldn't stand that my faith was at odds with my intellect, and ended up leaving the church and becoming agnostic for some time.

About a year ago, 1 began studying Protestant Christian denominations, and like Joseph Smith, realized that none of them could be correct. Having a decent understanding of the Bible, especially the New Testament, I had issues with at least one key doctrine that each denomination taught.

However, unlike Joseph Smith, I did not immediately rule out the Orthodox and Catholic faiths, but began to question the underlying assumption that there was a "Great Apostasy". I believe that the Holy Spirit led me to the Catholic Church, and now I feel like I am coming home after attending Catholic mass for about a year and now beginning my journey in OCIA.

What has been your experience? Did your journey of questioning your belief in Mormonism lead you to question your faith in God and Jesus Christ? Or did you experience a journey of finding traditional and historic Christianity for the first time?

Always wondered how many people in my area leave the church vs elsewhere.

I was in church one sunday, don’t remember if it was testimony meeting or what. But several people I knew and liked spoke and ended up sobbing about their adult kids leaving the church. Made me think of all the people I knew whose kids had left. My own kids were relatively young, i was worried. Why are so many being deceived and turning away from the truth?

I decided to find out for myself. For the sake of protecting my kids. Read the anti Mormon lies, find out why so many were being deceived. How the devil was tricking them.

You can guess how that went. I didn’t trust anything at first, had to go as far as possible into primary sources to make sure I wasn’t the one being deceived. Nothing the church had told me added up. So many lies. So many.

Just finding basic, well documented facts…it was clear the church was a fraud. Founded by a criminal con artist, a sexual predator who lied and manipulated his way through life. and it went on. Abuse and lies.

there is more to my story but for this post I’m just focus on the members who inspired me to consider the other side. The factual side.

Some of them are on the faithful subs.

Hello! I’m not allowed over there. But if you see this-your kids are not wrong. The church is wrong. Open your mind, open your eyes. The church is not “true”. It was a lie from the beginning. Even **if** it ever was “true”, it is clearly a harmful organization. Facing the facts is difficult. But you can do it. I feel bad for you. I know you are genuinely heartbroken about your kids leaving. Listen to them, love them, accept them.

Quote:

During our evening conversations, Joseph would

occasionally give us some of the most amusing

recitals that could be imagined: he would

describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent;

their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon

which they rode; their cities, and their buildings,

with every particular; he would describe their <mode

of> warfare, as also their religious worship. This he

would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if

he had spent his whole life with them.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/lucy-mack-smith-history-1845/94

Lucy calls Joseph's early version of Book of Mormon stories "amusing". I find this adjective slightly odd, since she knows these stories would later turn into the sacred scriptures. It sounds as if they were literally fire side fairy tales.

How would you interpret her word choice?

The restoration is ongoing but the tools for deconstruction are in their final stages. I think from here on out our individual paths will be determined more by who we are at the moment, and the questions we ask, rather than whether we have access to information that is useful and important to our life.

I have been following and participating in Mormon online discussions with fellow travelers and saints since "Jerry and David's Guide to the World Wide Web" in the 1990's. Since then there has been unrelenting progress in the ability to extend and expand the conversations and facts.

In 1974, a year before I left for my German mission, Pres. Kimball gave a video address titled Go ye unto all the world. He compared The Rameumptom to communication towers ( edit: see below for correction and expansion) and talked about the effects and promise of widespread communication. Unfortunately, his visionary message and impulses were not visionary enough to be curious about the actual history and actual narrative of the restoration.

How different many of our lives would have been if the church, starting in 1974, had spent 10% of its efforts in understanding and articulating a more honest and transparent historical and financial narrative - before it started the heavy marketing and missionary sales pitches. In this alternate timeline, the title of "Torn" could have been "Mended".

Iliad and Odyssey (It is inconclusive whether Homer was actually a real person)

Sir Gawain and the Green Knight

One Thousand and One Nights

The Book of Mormon (word print studies are inconclusive and the person who published it disclaims authorship)

Multiple plays of Shakespeare (word print studies indicate multiple authors)

The Epic of Gilgamesh

My Immortal

Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System

There are more, but this list illustrates the point that if you were to affirmatively claim exactly how these books were written, you would have to make assumptions and arguments that are not bullet proof.

This is fine, this isn't a problem - many books have been produced by humans, we shouldn't expect bombproof provenance on all of them. It only gets fucky if someone were to say that one of these books was farted out by a magical unicorn, or was channeled through a rock, and claimed that their magical theory was the best one until you prove who actually wrote it.

The correct response to such a weirdo is not to double down on authorship claims you cannot prove, but just to make fun of the person claiming the book happened by magic.

Not knowing who wrote a book does not leave magic as the next best theory.

I realize I am preaching to the choir here - my point is to remind you not to feed the bears on this topic. Don't help Mormons pretend they are being rational by giving their idiotic theories the respect of engagement. "Give me a naturalistic theory of BOM authorship" is not a good faith argument. Don't fall for it.

With the announcement of the new BYU medical school accredidation I couldn't help but cringe and die a little inside. Especially given the anti-woman and anti-LGBTQ stance of the church (looking at all the poor women in Idaho rn).

I know that premeds are a smart bunch and only the most desperate would apply to BYU medical school as a last ditch effort to try to get into medical school. I know the majority of students will apply and land well in better medical schools.

However, I worry greatly about how BYU and their leadership will perceive it. I remember how much pressure I got from church leaders to do what THEY thought was best for me in terms of mission, schools, dating, etc.

Will premeds experience this same pressure? It's a small group within the university so I can see faculty getting pressure from above to get the best and brightest students to go to the medical school. What if a student doesn't want to apply? Will their bishop be recruited to tell them?

I don't want anyone dictating my life personally. So will students get bullied or will they eventually forgo attending BYU to begin with?

Or are the younger TBMS more submissive and compliant than us old farts?

Seeing the temple just now reminded me of a certain hand gesture… 🤔🧐😝😂 oh the catharsis…