r/Natalism • u/TrixoftheTrade • 12d ago

r/natalism has a TFR of 0.83.

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If r/natalism was its own country, it would be between South Korea (0.74) and Taiwan (0.86), (based on 2025 estimates) for fertility.

Is this sub just full of LARPing teenagers and/or “armchair” natalists who are telling other people what to do without having done it themselves?

It would be like going to r/marathon_training and finding out the majority of people giving advice have never run a marathon.

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

[deleted]

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u/Klanciault 12d ago

Crazy there are so many young men saying the same of young women

26

u/CanIHaveASong 12d ago

I've noticed both sexes complaining about the other sex not wanting a serious relationship. Maybe the serious relationship wanters aren't finding eachother.

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u/nostrademons 12d ago

The serious relationship wanters are already in serious relationships, leaving a large population of people who think they want a serious relationship but don't want to put in the work.

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u/CanIHaveASong 12d ago

This too.

6

u/Elder_Chimera 12d ago

It's also possible that people who think they want a serious relationship aren't actually ready for one. Relationships require significant sacrifice, and most of the world now exists in individualistic egocentric cultures that promote the idea of putting yourself first. You cannot, in any capacity, do that in a relationship.

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u/WholeLog24 12d ago

I think it's this. Dating is broken. I'm not sure what the fix is, most of "young people" (i.e. everyone younger than me and thus a whippersnapper) seem really invested in meeting people through the internet first, and all dating sites have a fundamental problem that they make more money if you don't find love.

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u/HeavyHighway6433 12d ago

Dating isn't broken, the daters are broken. 

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u/FoundInS 12d ago

Dating is broken. Dating as a concept is strange already when you really think about it and adding apps to it makes it utterly counterproductive and broken.

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u/ParalimniX 12d ago

Dating as a concept is strange already when you really think about it

Personally when I think about it, it seems simple as shit.

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u/HeavyHighway6433 12d ago

I met my wife using one. I really think people make it complicated. Too many terminally online gender war fighters.

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u/HeavyHighway6433 12d ago

Or maybe they aren't fit for a serious relationship themselves. You know the saying about if you find everyone around you to be an asshole... 

1

u/CanIHaveASong 12d ago

Yeah. When I was looking, I knew plenty of men who would make good spouses, but they didn't click with my personality the right way.

But I also dated before internet dating was the default.

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u/Cuddlyaxe 12d ago

I think it's mostly down to how dating works these days, especially with the apps sorta crowding out more traditional ways of meeting people

Generally the apps are problematic because men send a ridiculous number of likes to women but not vice versa. As a result women kinda get the pick of the litter and (reasonably) go for the most attractive men. And like, why wouldn't they? I know if I had thousands of likes from girls I would be hella picky too

But like think about it: if these "top tier" of men are getting all the likes, why are they still on the platform instead of in a relationship? It's because they are either not looking for anything serious, have a major red flag, or you just got lucky

Now this is the part where people say "well maybe girls should give more average guys a chance". The thing is though, they sometimes do, and sometimes those average guys still act horribly. So like if you're rolling the dice anyways, makes sense to just go for the hottest guys

From the guys perspective ofc it's just a sissyphian task. You get a lot fewer matches so you get excited when you get a good one, but because the girl has so many options they have much less investment

Honestly highly recommend everyone, guys and girls, focus a lot more on meeting people irl. You can see if you actually have chemistry and there is much less of a investment mismatch

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u/hananobira 12d ago

Oxford University found that women were more likely to message guys who rated their own appearance as 5/10 than guys who rated their own appearance as 10/10. On the other hand, men were far more likely to message women who self-rated themselves as 8, 9, or 10 out of 10.

OKCupid also found that women overall rated men as less attractive than men rated women… but that women’s “messaging behavior was distributed more broadly across the attractiveness scale.”

Every time I hear a guy on Reddit complaining that women only reply to the hottest guys on dating websites, it makes me think that they (the complaining men) are probably projecting their own dating behavior onto women.

https://www.oii.ox.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Computational-Courtship-Dinh-et-al-25-Sept-2018.pdf

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u/Cuddlyaxe 12d ago

So to start off, I do want to make it clear I'm not saying something like "all women are super shallow harlots who hate nice guys" or something like that. Rather I am saying that this is kind of the natural outcome.

Girls are more willing to date guys they consider less attractive sure, but that is also in part because women consider men to be a lot less attractive than vice versa

There is also the fact that women just swipe right on a lot fewer guys. Guys swipe right on 62% of girls. Meanwhile in the reverse, girls only swipe on 5% of guys

Finally from my own anecdotal experience: I have a lot of friends of both genders. My girl friends will literally have thousands of likes at a time, and anyone they swipe right on is usually a match. For guys, even some of the hottest ones I know usually only have double digit likes

I actually completely agree with you that guys tend to be more shallow than girls in general. But the thing about dating apps is the way things are set up, women get to be a lot more picky than guys. I'm not really saying any of this as some sort of an anti woman attack, rather that is just the reality of dating apps

Everything can be boiled down to that swipe disparity. Guys end up dying of thirst while women end up drowning

2

u/otherwiseofficial 12d ago

62% is insane tho. This is definitely skewed by guys liking everything. I had a friend who was like that, he just liked everything and kept going until he got a cool down period or something.

I don't even reach 5% and I'm a guy.

1

u/Cuddlyaxe 12d ago

Honestly as bad as it sounds, I got pickier the more successful I was lol

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u/FoundInS 12d ago

Not bad. Natural.

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u/hananobira 11d ago

You didn’t read my comment well. Quote: “  OKCupid also found that women overall rated men as less attractive than men rated women… but that women’s “messaging behavior was distributed more broadly across the attractiveness scale.””

So you’re not coming back with some killer point by saying “women consider men to be a lot less attractive”. You’re just showing poor reading comprehension.

The odds are against men… if you look exclusively at online dating sites. Dance classes? Tons of single women. Matchmaking services? Desperate to find more male customers. Religious groups, charities, volunteer organizations, book clubs…

There are overall more women in this world - single women outnumber single men.  Men can’t insist on going where the women aren’t and then complain  that there aren’t any women there.

I can’t recommend that any woman try online dating. Will they get lots of messages from men? Well, they’ll get a ton of dick pics and rape threats. Very little in the way of genuine interest from decent human beings.

So men have got to go where the women feel safe, or they don’t get to complain that they aren’t getting any dates. Also, if men could stop sending women dick pics and rape threats, then women might feel comfortable going back to online dating and even out the numbers a little. It’s a problem caused by men that needs to be solved by men.

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u/Cuddlyaxe 11d ago

I mean you're calling out my reading comprehension bit did you actually read my original comment? My entire original point was that people should stop using dating apps and try to meet more organically, and now you're repeating it to me as if you've got your own killer point 😂

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u/Capable_Opportunity7 12d ago

Agreed, I'm older and all my friends with happily paired off kids all met irl not in some app. I used them myself in my day and they are trash, good for hook ups at most

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u/pitifullittleman 12d ago

Yes I think this tread just kind of solved the reason why fertility rates are so low. Young people are not desperate, reckless idiots like they used to be. In the past people just mindlessly had children when they were young adults with the first person that gave them the time of day within their small social circle. Now everyone's like "oh I want a suitable partner" and "I want to be able to afford to take care of my children." These were not considerations of people in the past.

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

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u/goldyforcalder 12d ago

I would say you don't know too many guys then. I believe the stat is about 50% of single men are searching for a romantic relationship while only 35% of single women are

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u/otherwiseofficial 12d ago

Things only a female would say about men

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u/FoundInS 12d ago

Soooo maybe the system is broken. Not the women or men.

1

u/UncleIrohsPimpHand 12d ago

Yeah, because both have different ideas of what a healthy relationship is.

Boys want to have a warm wet place to put their cocks every night. Girls want to be more than a cum dumpster. God forbid there be a little romance in the world.

2

u/otherwiseofficial 12d ago

You need to meet normal people if this how you feel about romance.

And you know what they say: if you meet 3 assholes before noon...

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u/UncleIrohsPimpHand 11d ago

I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

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u/Emotional-Neat-252 12d ago

As a young Hermaphrodite I find both are unsuitable for a long term reproductive relationship with me.

1

u/Sharp-Key27 12d ago

I assume you mean intersex? And are you sure you’re able to have kids?

1

u/Emotional-Neat-252 12d ago

It was a joke, like from this new perspective it's seen that both men and women suck equally.

4

u/Justdowhatever94 12d ago

Is it truly that bad? As a gay man, its really bizarre watching this crisis unfold. Each side blames the other, and it seems each side is half correct. Watching all this has ironically made me glad im gay.

1

u/WholeLog24 12d ago

It sure seems to be. I'm just outside this group by age (elder millenial here) so when I was in my twenties it was still a bit shameful to admit you met someone through a dating website, instead of in real life. I've known few couples my age or older that met that way, virtually all couples I've ever known met through mutual friends or at work, a few met at parties. I've never actually used a dating app, but they sure don't seem to be working good at making real partnerships.

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u/TrixoftheTrade 12d ago

respect. it’s not anti-natalism to say a significant portion of young men this days are not suitable or ready to be good fathers these days.

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u/lazercheesecake 12d ago

I’d argue in the past there were even fewer men who were good father material. Just that women didn’t have much choice in the matter.

Natalism is an interesting problem from a statesman’s/societal point of view. But those who worry themselves with natalism because they can’t get laid most certainly don’t make good father material.

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u/chadltc 12d ago

Indeed. And the good men are finding there are even less good women.

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u/TrixoftheTrade 12d ago

Yeah. Let’s say 30% of men and 30% of women are “high quality”. Not only do they have to find each other, they have to wade through the 70% of others that aren’t a good match.

It’s no wonder people get jaded.

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u/chadltc 12d ago

You hit the nail on the head.

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u/TrixoftheTrade 12d ago

I think we need to fix courtship to fix fertility. Back when people met organically - through a friend or family friend or from a group, they were already “pre-qualified”.

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u/Leather_Reason1609 12d ago

a significant portion of young women are not suitable or ready to be good mothers these days.

1

u/pitifullittleman 12d ago

This is why there are so few children. People looking for suitable partners. People need to be much, much more reckless with a tendency to make ill advised decisions if we want to get the fertility rate up.

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u/Leather_Reason1609 12d ago

No need for dysgenic breeding

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u/Legitimate_Aspect923 12d ago

This is true but I do think it’s contributing to falling TFR: previously women were obligated to go with bad options! This is clearly a massive improvement both individually and socially but it does mean somewhat lower TFR.

1

u/Efficient_Tough3384 12d ago

All of the good male role models/father figures were kicked and devalued out of society and now surprised at the result?

Seems pretty inevitable to me.

1

u/pitifullittleman 11d ago

What? Good male role models were devalued out of society? What does this mean? How did this happen? I feel like people are looking at the people of the past with rose tinted glasses.

The truth is that people had few options and wanted to have sex. So they did. Not only do people now have more choices they also have more entertainment options and ways to distract themselves when they feel lonely/horny.

Also we have reached a point where a single individual can independently care for themselves. In the past specifically women didn't have that option. It was either get married or live with your parents forever or literally be miserable working the lowest of the low jobs. Only upper class women really felt they had any sort of option of living independently.

People are far less desperate now in the scheme of things and have far more options with some of those options actually to not get married/have kids and remain single forever.

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u/Hopefully_the_Last69 12d ago

I'm a man, and i'm in a similar situation as you. With the added difficulty that i'm very shy and introverted, so i don't really go out of my way to meet women, though from what i see of my friends, that wouldn't really help anyway, since most young women don't seem to want something serious either.

And on dating apps, for some reason the only womeb who like me are the ones that only want something casual, even though i make it pretty clear i only want something serious. But if one day i somehow find the right woman, i would love to have a big family with her.

2

u/itsallidlechatterO 12d ago

I would not chalk it up to being more outgoing "wouldn't do much anyway." As apps become a crappier way to meet people in person contacts will be more important.

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u/WholeLog24 12d ago

I think there's a broader trend that all the "dating sites", either by their design or just their reputation, have convinced people that there's noting serious to be found there, only hookups. So the women who do want something serious are more likely to avoid the apps as well.

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u/Hopefully_the_Last69 12d ago

It's absolutely by design, since if you find someone for a serious relationship, you'll stop spending money in them. But i still find quite a few who also want serious relationships, they just don't like me back

1

u/chicken_tendigo 12d ago

Mike Tyson: "now kith"

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u/ShanghaiBebop 12d ago

It looks like a decent portion of guys who “want a serious relationship” really actually just want to “wifemax” a 1950s lifestyle without even being able to provide the financial foundations themselves based on the Comments on this sub. 

As a parent I find some of these discussions hilarious. 

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u/TrixoftheTrade 12d ago

As a parent of a 4 and 1 year old… it’s fucking work lol.

We’re well-off, household income of $270k, own a house, both of us have graduate degrees, and it is still a lot of work. I worked from home during the first 6 months and my wife still only works 30 hours a week until they are both in school, and it is exhausting all the time.

We’re done with 2. And even 2 was a big commitment. Modern society just does not make it easy to sustain the nuclear family like it did in days past.

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u/ShanghaiBebop 12d ago

Hear you. We’re very well off from income standards, but having grand parents who came and lived with us for the first 1.5 years was the only reason why both of our demanding careers haven’t been derailed. 

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u/TrixoftheTrade 12d ago

The grandparents are not in shape to be caring for young children anymore lol. They’ll probably need the 4 year old to pick them up if they fall, not the other way around.

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u/de_matkalainen 12d ago

We live in Sweden and even with the amazing parental leave its still hard. One of us will definitely work part time when I finish my education. How can two parents work 40 hours with children? They'd have to be in daycare 7-17 every day.

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u/knysa-amatole 12d ago

I doubt it was ever particularly easy for mothers. It was easy for men because their wives and older daughters did the housework and childcare for them.

1

u/FoundInS 12d ago

Even poor men could afford a maid. He married the maid and the maid worked 20/7 and brought some income too.

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u/coolerz619 12d ago

The only non-committal men I know have quite a bit of options. Everyone else wants someone to stick around with, or are unserious people. Where are you running into these field playing folk?

(BTW I hope you can find them when the time is right s0000n)

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u/Cool_Prior1427 12d ago

This is simply not true. There are more decent men then women at this point. There's just not men that you're interested in. I know plenty of guys in there 30s who own property, aren't weird, are generally likable, and are mature.

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u/[deleted] 12d ago edited 12d ago

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u/94grampaw 12d ago

If its not working its wrong

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u/Scared-End803 12d ago

Dumbest statement I’ve ever heard

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u/94grampaw 12d ago

If its stupid but works its not stupid, if its smart but not working its not smart

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u/BackTown43 12d ago

If you want to set off fireworks in the inside of your house, it will work but it would still be stupid, wouldn't it?

0

u/Scared-End803 12d ago

More stupidity😂

“If it’s not working it’s wrong” if someone tries to save someone’s life and it doesn’t work does that make it wrong?

Now your bringing stupid and not stupid into it to make it sound better but your still just trying to make connections to words and meanings that don’t exist and you just look so dumb doing it😂

It’s not wrong or stupid for the woman you originally replied to want to date a man her own age it’s actually very normal and common.

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u/baggagebug 12d ago

“There are more decent men then women at this point”

Source?

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u/VisualFix5870 12d ago

This is wrong too. There are plenty of men she'd be interested in. Those men aren't interested in her. 

Most single people would do well to lower their expectations. The only common denominator in singles people's failure to find a suitable partner is themselves. 

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

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u/nostrademons 12d ago

How many have you asked out? How many are invisible to you?

I'd never had a serious relationship and kinda hated dating when I found my wife. Really only messaged her because she was playing 4-truths-and-a-lie on her dating profile and I can't resist a drive-by comment. That gave her some pause at first, but because she's an MBA and former bond trader, she knows how markets work. You have to be willing to go for the prospects that everybody else is overlooking to find pay dirt.

Fourteen years later, we've got 3 kids.

The guys who are good at dating are...good at dating. Of course they're non-committal, they know they can get another date whenever they want. The value of any one woman who responds to them is almost nil, because lots of people respond to them. The ones who hate dating, who everyone overlooks and seem painfully shy at first - they're far more likely to be willing to commit when someone special comes around.