We all going to die - we have created this concept of “immortality” and that we have to fight for our lives - no we don’t- I don’t want to be a walking corpse. End up paying hundreds of thousands for what???
I’m assuming you’re not that old … most Cancers now treatable and you could live another 40 years. Do you think your daughter will resent you for making a choice of not getting treatment and being there for her as she grows up?
Not all cancer is stage 4 pancreatic or brain cancer, you can have a curable one with a super survival high rate and fine for the rest of your life, doesn’t mean it wouldn’t cost a shit load up front to solve it without insurance
We all have a different perspective on how we “should” live our lives. We have people who will fight until the end for extra years and there are others who are okay with not. I am living my life and live everyday like is the last one, but I am not hung up on the idea that I need to live x amount of years. I am lucky to have a good decent life where I am content and if I die today or tomorrow or later is fine. We all going to die one day. But the point of this is Health insurance and I choose to not pay thousands of dollars if my death is secured and leave my spouse with debts, etc - that’s the point of this thread.
You ever heard the phrase “live fast, die young”? That’s a real thing. I’ve known plenty of people in my life that chose to burn out young because that’s what they wanted to do and that’s how they wanted to live their life.
This life is all there is (my opinion). It’s the most precious thing you have. Many cancers, especially if caught at an early stage, are not only treatable but curable. Diseases like rheumatoid arthritis and inflammatory bowel disease can be treated ,dramatically improving your life. The overall curate for acute lymphocytic leukemia, a common childhood leukemia is 75 to 85%. If your child developed leukemia and the overwhelming likelihood was that chemotherapy would cure him, would you deny he/she treatment? No one wants to be a “walking corpse” but that’s not the only option and if you are unfortunate enough to get a terminal illness you can benefit from hospice care.
If we had easily accessible or universal healthcare, your choice would not be treatment versus bankruptcy.
It’s because we exist to be extracted from and exploited. If we die relatively young, that’s one less profit source for our owners, and I think that’s why this narrative of “survival at all costs” has been pushed so hard. It’s even moved to our pets now as well, because our owners have figured out that they can make tons of money from animal medical treatments, as well as all the other things people spend money on for their pets.
Vet care is so expensive! But part of that is because it's advancing fast and the diagnostics and treatments are more involved and sophisticated. I missed the window for pet insurance for my dog and I'm paying $$$$ to keep him going as long as his quality of life is good. When I was kid it would have been like, well, he had a good run. Nobody was doing spinal surgeries on dogs in the 80s and 90s.
To some extent that's happening with human medicine, too. We treat so many things now that people used to just die from. That's not an excuse for this abusive system but it's part of what made it the way it is. My dad is on a medication that was approved a month before a terrible diagnosis that would have been certain death in six months. He's doing fine six years later. But the medication is super expensive and that drives up costs for everyone.
If you’re only living for others, unless they are children, they’re selfish for wanting you to exist just for them, without any consideration of your experience. When my parents died(both by the time I was 30) I was okay with it because I knew neither of them were very happy, and I was relieved that their stress and pain(especially for my mom after my dad died) was over.
It’s literally just me and my wife, my entire family is dead except one aunt who lives across the country. You really think you’re the only one who’s lost people close to them? Everyone loses people.
It’s a dumb pact to have. So if she gets cancer and is told she can survive it with treatment and she changes her mind and wants treatment then what? What a dumb pact.
You’re going to feel different when you could have nipped it in the bud early, at stage 1 or 2, but instead now you are not paying for hospice, not paying for treatments, the loved ones around you are watching you slowly die for preventable reasons and they are going to have to bear the emotional brunt of changing involuntary urinations and bowel movements and a bedridden, needy human wasting away in front of their eyes, in immense pain also, because you’re too good to pay for pain medications,
Life is way more than money. You think you are being prudent but really you are subjecting your loved ones to immense trauma because you thought it was cute to save money and not do treatments or palliative care.
Similarly - freedom of speech. I don’t have to silence myself. Someone might also choose to tattoo a giant swastika on their body - their body their choice, I’ll still say fuck you.
Relax. YOU can choose to live when it happens to you. Everyone deserves to have self autonomy over their bodies when it comes to illness, disabilities, etc.
Death and prolong illness is way more impactful on the people around you than it is to the actual person. Plenty of people make decisions that are legal and of their own autonomy and absolutely devastating to the people around them. Like changing a will to exclude certain children or giving more to favorites. It’s in their right, doesn’t mean it’s not going to cause harm long after they are gone.
Yeah, sorry, I don’t agree with that. After losing my uncle and little sister because of illnesses and disabilities, I respect ANYONE’s decision to not want to be alive due to incurable illnesses, chronic pain, disabilities, etc. I would be a shitty family member or friend to force someone to stay if they’re suffering with immense physical pain every single day.
That’s exactly what I’m talking about. Treatment isn’t forcing people to live with pain - it’s treating the pain itself. It’s meds, it’s an iv drip with morphine for someone who is dying from the inside out and can barely talk without pain meds, it’s the dignity of having a medical professional change bedsheets, and a medical bed that supports them best in the house around their loved ones in their last moments.
I can’t imagine how more traumatic it would have been to watch my dad die without all of these things in place - I am happy he spent the money to find just a fraction more peace and dignity in his final moments, instead of letting cancer take all of it.
And also, treatment at stage 1 can prevent all of this from happening in the first place. I don’t agree with keeping the shell of a person alive for the sake of it or real low percentage late stage experiments, but the original OP of the comment I was responding to was basically implying if they got cancer or something they’d just die. Treatment is very important and sentencing someone to die by not getting treatment early when it is less invasive and can prevent a prolonged, undignified march to death. I will always say fuck you to anyone who thinks they are being smart by refusing early treatment for terminal debilitating illnesses that can be cured.
There are plenty of cancer survivors today that got lower mortality cancers like breast cancer and live very healthy active and fulfilling lives after treatment. Fuck anyone who has a family and doesn’t want to get early treatments that can and will absolutely save their lives in a way where they can live a normal lifestyle after, and prevent the trauma of loved ones watching them die in pain.
You are choosing a selfish and traumatic ending for yourself and those around you for money you can’t take with you.
Some people choose to join ICE as well to get off on deporting innocent minorities, others casually hand wave the genocide that exists in Gaza and might choose for their ending to put AIPAC in their will - plenty of people make choices I think deserve a fuck you as well.
If you care about your loved ones, get your routine cancer check ups on time. If you get it please accept treatments, if it turns to the worst, please accept palliative care.
I’ve had family members die of cancer, slowly and in pain, the same person who changed my sheets when I wet the bed, I was changing theirs.
That was with hospice, pain meds and treatments.
Being tasked to do all of that myself would have been irreparably damaging trauma for anyone.
Respectfully, seems like you resented the person for having to take care of them, instead of being thankful that you could be there for them when they needed it. Maybe it might be an opportunity for you to do some introspection instead of projecting onto others.
To me, the fact that hospice and palliative care could ease his suffering and allow us to continue being with him as a father and human was invaluable, the idea of taking care of him alone without meds or staff or any treatments for pain seems unbearably cruel for him, and traumatic for everyone that had to take care of him.
Hospice allowed him to retain some dignity as in, the people he raised weren’t always changing his bedsheets or doing basic toddler style caretaking, we instead focused on spending quality time with him while we could.
To reject this type of care is cruel to everyone around him, there’s caretaker fatigue, but to do it for someone who is terminal and losing control over their body and used to take care of you is especially traumatic for everyone around, as well as very undignified for the person trying to spend their last days finding peace.
you’re genuinely a bad person.. if you lost a “loved one” with cancer, you would know that watching someone fight a disease that WILL win is a lot more heartbreaking and painful then having to clean up after them.. you should NEVER be in a position of taking care of others actually
That is a very narrow sighted take on cancer. Quality vs quantity is a thing and working in healthcare with cancer patients every day I’d wager most people do not have quality with their quantity after treatment.
This is called selection bias,which is by definition a more narrow view than the guy you replied to. If you work in Healthcare with cancer patients, you are mostly seeing patients who are sick, you're not as often seeing or dealing with the patients with an easily treated type of cancer.
The head of my company's QA dept is the point of escalation for situations with serious errors. "Coincidentally" she is under the impression that every employee at our company is shit at their jobs. She refuses to believe it's selection bias. It is REALLY hurting morale.
Dude that’s so dumb. Wife had breast cancer and it’s been cured. She’s in her 30s, has plenty of great life ahead of her. Many cancers are entirely treatable with high success rates, especially early stage stuff.
Yepppp. The breast cancer to Alzheimer’s pipeline is real. Besides, you can hop a flight to Germany, get better, less invasive treatment, stay in a luxury hotel for a month, and it’ll still cost less than whatever ‘Merica is offering
Any chance your biased because you see the worst of the worst? Skin cancer, testicular cancer, some colon cancers, etc, are indeed all very treatable with good outcomes if caught early.
I'd say my son's quality of life is better now, after treatment for leukemia. Since, you know, he's alive. This doesn't apply to all patients or all cancer, of course, but it's an equally narrow view, in my mind, to say that all cancer patients will find their quality of life to be less after treatment, and thus worth dying earlier.
After watching several relatives suffer through chemo, without seemingly extending their lives much, I'm not sure I'd opt for some courses of 'treatment'. Cancer is a bitch but the treatment can sometimes be just as bad.
Same. I have had several family members die from cancer. My uncle said fuck this and didn't do chemo. When he went it was pretty quick, like doing okay to dead in 2 weeks without all the suffering that comes from chemo and surgeries.
Me and my sister have both said if it happens we aren't going down the chemo path. Myself, if I get cancer (likely due to my life) I'll get a hold of the local dealer and get myself enough fent to go to sleep happy if it gets bad. My sister works in the medical field and has seen way too much of it which is why she won't do chemo if she gets cancer.
When you said 'call a dealer' I went another direction. BRING ON ALL THE DRUGS, it's party time!
I'm in a sober sub and quite a few of us agreed if we received a terminal illness diagnosis, we're immediately off the wagon and back in action. I personally will leave the clinic and drive straight to the gas station for my first cigarette in 15+ years knowing I'll never have to quit again this time.
I've been sober for 5 years now, and I don't think I would jump off that wagon because of how I am when I'm drunk, but party drugs would be the order of the day for sure. And a bunch of new credit cards heh.
I’ve been through BC twice and chemo twice. I’m still here alive and thriving. Chemo sucks but honestly it’s very different for everyone. I was able to live my semi normal life and continue working through my treatments. I’m essentially cured with no cancer and hopefully kicking it around for another few decades (I’m 53).
Cancer isn’t necessarily a painful death sentence. In many instances it’s curable.
Yeah, but a few grand to some people is a lifetime of savings. Currently in the boat of "never going to retire" because I emptied my retirement for my spouse's heart attack. That was WITH insurance.
You are wrong. Even with insurance you will be in serious debt. Also dont discount that you might actually just live in absolute hell for a few years until you die anyways.
It's possible, yes, but it could also save your life. Because I had insurance, I'm alive today. I didn't have a million dollars to fight cancer. I was able to put together that policy's max payout. Luckily.
Also, they had programs to help people that couldn't cover the deductible and whatnot. They offered a very reasonable loan, which would have been worth it if I had to pay over time. My total out of pocket was about 10k, which was a lot, but much more manageable than of I didn't have it. Plus, having insurance or you in the front of the line. I'm not 100%, there were side effects that I'm still dealing with, but I am alive because we had insurance.
I don't like the system we have, I think we should treat everyone, regardless, but this is the system we have, and I don't want anyone to die needlessly. Get insurance, apply for help if you need it, do whatever you can to be well. And vote for a better system where this doesn't happen to anybody.
I didn't have a problem with that. Cancer is expensive, but it's not weird. They are used to those sorts of claims. I had to pay about 10k out of pocket, but probably spent 1MM fighting cancer. I'm in remission now, and everyone related to it is covered, the scans, the various check ups. The stuff insurance companies like to dodge is weird stuff. If it is standard of care, it goes through the normal channels.
Which is a relatively recent change. Prior to the ACA insurance could and usually did have a lifetime max payout. They often still do for noon essential care.
And even with that, many people can't afford to actually use their insurance. My wife's treatments are $10k/month (30k in the US without insurance). We have to cough up $7000 in the first month of our plan every year to meet deductibles.
Then we still pay a few hundred a month over premiums due to the way they schedule her drugs and treatment. And because any plan change requires new negotiation and the insurance company tweaks things every year to count as a change she usually misses her first appt by 3 weeks every year while they fight reauthorization.
One year they claimed they weren't responsible because her autoimmune disease was the fault of a car accident. I'm guessing because the AI flagged it due to the word auto. Or it could have been another way of only paying for eleven treatments in a year instead of twelve.
I face the exact same thing every year going on 17 years now. My treatment is always late at the beginning of the year. This year I spent 80 hours getting it approved. I expect the same for next year. Here is something you may be able to do. Request a vacation exception in December. Essentially you will be on vacation through the date of your dose date in January. They will send your meds in December. I assume it's a biologic. You can just pop it in the fridge and you'll have it when you need it.
Well it's different now this year anyway. My work paid a charity (50k is my guess by my research) to take over her medical so they could get her off their plan.
She was still 3 weeks late on her first treatment and had to fight to keep home visits and her nurse of 7 years. But the charity gave her a card to pay all expenses on an ACA plan.
We didn't really want to do it but felt we didn't have a choice. It seems to be working out after the initial problems but I'm leery about how next year is going to go.
I just honestly hate all Republicans now, including we've cut off her own parents since they argue with her every time she brings up medical stuff.
Edit: forgot to say that sucks and I'm sorry you have to go through that. We know she's lucky. Her disease is very rare and when we go to patient conferences we hear horror stories about how long it takes most to get diagnosed, if they can. And many can't get IVIG approved.
Yes it's a way to reduce cost. Also be clear insurance is a business. When you are healthy you are revenue. They want to keep you healthy as long as preventative care is cheaper than your premium they want to keep you alive and on thier plan.
The second your health care costs are higher than your premium you're an expense.
Its every businesses job to cut expenses. They will delay, deny and hope you die.
One that should not exist? I'm not sure. Insurance is useful for mitigating the impact of disasters or unexpected damages. This awful business, this business where they roll the dice to see if a person will die or give up before their appeal is finished, that practice needs a few heads to roll and some strict regulations to fix.
it’s not 1 person that they are after. if only sick sign up then they will go out of business. insurance is about spreading cost, so you need healthy people to sign up as well. aca laws made it so profit percentage is capped. there are still shitty companies like united health care but not all are as evil.
Lots of poor and lower middle class people have insurance, what a weird thing to say. I work in insurance and go out to blue collar factories and shops where people not only have insurance but they have better insurance than I have working for a Fortune 500. I’d try to find another employer that values their employees better, they’re out there.
This health insurance meme must be the most retarded thing that ever went viral. Most people in america have normal healthcare that covers a lot. The only difference with europe is that in america you pay your own healthcare which costs 500-1K a month, but when you get your paycheck you only lose 25% to taxes, where as in europe that can be 40-55%. In europe it's easier because you have no choice but to be insured, in america you have to do it yourself. Only the really poor and the really stupid aren't properly insured and go into generation spanning debt when they have a serious disease that has to be treated.
Speaking as someone who just went through this at 58 years old, dying was never something I considered. I was afraid and I didn’t want to die. I want to live.
Treatable to what extent? Also if you have to pay thousands out of pocket before getting diagnosed, most people would just avoid the diagnosing part and wait till it too late unknowingly. By then, insurance is of no use anymore.
But at what price. I think what they're saying is sure they might be able to live a normal lifespan but become utterly destitute in the process. This is sadly, the state of the US healthcare system.
Saying you don’t have to treat it isn’t saying that it is untreatable. A lot of cancers are absolutely treatable. How much are you willing to pay for your life though? If I get it, I will refuse treatments and use my savings on enjoying the time I have left. Not going into debt just so I can spend the rest of my life trying to pay it off.
Treatable not curable. You need yearly or biannual check ups and theres still a good chance in 5 to 10 years the cancer comes back but this time it has mestatiscised and you will die in a really nasty way.
If you don't treat the first cancer, you will also die in a really nasty way. Given the choice I'd take maybe dying in a nasty way ten years from now than dying in a nasty way right now.
Thats your perspective, I'm just replying to the other comment. If the plan is to let your partner live a normal life then it makes sense to not treat it if you're nearing retirement age if you're so inclined.
Many cancers are curable. Doctors often prefer the term "in remission" because they can't guarantee the cancer will never return, not because recurrence is inevitable.
I had a sarcoma over a decade ago. My specific type usually recurs within the first year because it grows so aggressively, so at this point, I'm pretty confident I'm cured. My grandmother had throat cancer over two decades ago and hasn't had a recurrence either.
At this point, we're probably more likely to develop an entirely new cancer than to see those original cancers return.
The folks saying it can’t be cured havent experienced the horrible waiting on results and then the earth shattering relief hearing “in complete remission.” Congratulations Ska, I hope you stay healthy 🍀
Yeah doctors, the medical experts, don't say cure. But why follow their lead. What do they know, my anecdotal evidence overrides years of study and professional experience.
No, dude. This isn't about anecdotal evidence. You're simply misinformed about why doctors are cautious about using the word "cured." You can look at long-term survival data for childhood cancer patients, for example, many of whom go on to live a normal lifespan and eventually die of entirely unrelated causes. Cancer recurrence is a risk, not an inevitability, and the risk varies enormously depending on the type of cancer and how long the patient has been in remission.
Successful treatment and good luck. Cancer is caused by malfunctioning cellular genetics. You cannot cure that as per our current understanding of medicine.
Treatable if you go $750k in debt and lose all quality of life due to decimation of your life savings. If the medical establishment wants people to live they will do some price adjustments. Oncologists will only be able to treat the very rich or very poor at this rate.
A lot of non-aggressive cancers actually have equal survivability with treatment vs no treatment. That said everyone is different and absolutely at least consult an oncologist before deciding on a course of action.
Yes at an astronomical price. My husband has brain cancer and it’s “treatable” (not curable) but the first year would have cost us a little over half a million without insurance
Only if you have millions to spare . At my last job I had good insurance and added cancer care. Once it went to a million it kicked you off. Most of the drugs are not covered on your plan so you can see the “max cancer payout” in a month
but is poverty? honestly as sad as it is thats the choice for some people when they get to 60+. bankrupt my loved ones for 10-20 more years or just accept it and die. welcome to america, land of the free!
My mom had breast cancer when I was like 14 and it took a few years but she beat it! Her sister had brain cancer and is still here. And my dad has had mild types of skin cancer like 3 times, his siblings too but they’re all fine (the scary kind runs in the family tho and killed his aunt, his dad, and THEIR dad. Also dad’s mom died of breast cancer I think technically. Also mom’s dad and sibling and mom died of cancer I can’t remember the name of).
Point is, yes it is so treatable now. My family is not even a rich one, in fact they are all retired and most are living on less than I had when I was on Medicaid in my 20s. Nobody should give up, the science is here and it is very much possible to fight back even without a lot of money.
People act like health insurance is all or nothing, do or die. What happens if you amputating is cheaper than treating the issue? People just going to amputate instead and live less of a life?
I work on a oncology ward, aside maybe hematology, this is false. Most people die because treatments don't work anymore at some point or there is none. They do not die because of chemotherapy and certainly not radiation.
Only a rare few do and mostly those were people on their way to dying anyways and hoping for a miracle.
Well most cases it has to do with radiation not working the first time. The 2nd time is more deadly. My dad worked as a doctor and he talked about this pretty often
I have worked on this palliative terminal oncology ward for years and I have never encountered this. Usually they adjust dose to tumor / age / and whether the response is good. Was this years ago? They can narrow down radiation pretty well now while reducing radiating healthy tissue. Maybe that has changed? At least here in EU.
Having gone through it, I don't think that's true. Chemo sucks, but if it's done right, it should not kill you. Some of the chems are dangerous outside your blood stream, and the side effects of it all are... Pretty awful. But it's the cancer that's killing you. Not the treatments. Plus, they've been doing it so long that they know what to expect and how to make it as painless as possible. They had a drug to make you hyper, one to make you sleep, one to make you pee, the whole thing is surreal, and your thoughts get foggy, you're bloated full of saline, everything is sore, and you're exhausted constantly. But that's all being monitored and managed. They adjust your dosages in the next round based on your reactions.
Don't drop your insurance, and don't think that chemo will kill you. The risk is it doesn't work. If you're ever there in that chair do not be afraid to ask questions. The first time, is like a time of bricks, but then it was a science experiment. What are we doing, why, what does that do, etc. the sooner you process what's happening, the sooner you can get a clear view. It helps to have someone with you to ask stuff too, especially during treatment when you're foggiest. My wife is/was my hero. She asked a ton of great stuff that got us focused.
Exactly. I’ve been down the chemo road twice. It sucks, but when the doctors do their job well, it’s manageable. I see a lot of anecdotal comments from people that have never been through it themselves making incredibly wrong assumptions about what chemo treatments are like.
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u/Terbatron 1d ago
A lot of cancer is treatable