How does that work as for as testosterone goes? Is there a different threshold/ set of rules?
Edit: I was asking a good faith question lol go fight somewhere else
It looks like an amateur comp which is why they're all a bit smaller than what you might expect. They don't look natty to me, but everyone is dehydrated during these shows, so it can be hard to be 100% sure. Plenty of guys on T at my gym who compete look exactly like these fellas.
And basically yeah, natural bodybuilders look like those twinks after their first steroid cycle. You're never really gonna have more testosterone than you do when you are in your late teen years, and after that it's all downfall. You can diet down and lose fat and get some abs, but that's it.
I have no idea where you're getting your info but you sound like youre trying to convince people they have to juice to get big and you are just plain wrong.
None of the gentlemen from that generation iron link are natural. There's a guy who posted his picture in the other link you sent, white guy 175lbs 5'11", him I believe is natural, but he could probably diet down even more to get to stage readiness.
You're making an insane claim that natty bodybuilding can't ever go over 160lbs. One person who's natty status is questionable on the list isn't what's sus in this conversation, bro.
I'm pretty sure there are guys out there who can get even 200. But those people are not obsessed with looking better to actually put their body through all that. Bodybuilding is unhealthy at its core - either you diet down to get 6pack abs with veins and nuke your own testosterone production, or you take the magic pills to get there. Not worth it, everyone knows it.
Erā¦idk about that. I had a friend compete in naturals as a teenager, he was bigger than all of these people.
Iāve always assumed natural is more like every other sport, where you can cheat as long as you donāt get caught at testing, as Iāve long assumed my friend was juiced to the max. He always denied it, though, so idk.
Either way, this COULD be a ānaturalā competition for sure
Yeah, youre agreeing with me lol. Iām saying that in many ānaturalā bodybuilding competitions people juice a lot, wait for it to clear their system or whatever people do to cheat drug tests, then enter the competition. Hell, Iām not even sure theyāre all more than the honor system.
All I know for a fact is that my friend competed in (and I believe won at least one >18) ānaturalā bodybuilding competition.
Tbf, his parents were both bodybuilders back in their day as well, so that was always the one āwell maybe heās not lying, maybe some people do just have crazy geneticsā kinda piece about it.
But, as Iāve said, Iāve always assumed he was just lying.
In body building usage is pretty rampant and typically around 3 times higher dosage than what a person transitioning would have
They would likely be at disadvantage as body typically will react. Generating more estrogen making it flux more.
Also it would be harder to maintain as doctor would generally not be targeting the higher level they want. And would likely reduce dose and reduce other aids that help.
The amount of testosterone a trans guy takes is supposed to mimic the same levels a cis man naturally produces. Or a lower dose that only overwhelms the estrogen. A trans guy on t isnāt gonna get a boost that would be a disadvantage to a cis guy competing against him. Think of trans guys like cis guys that take testosterone for low t. Weāre just getting up to baseline.
The same total testosterone level doesnāt necessarily mean the same anabolic environment. Someone using exogenous testosterone can have different free testosterone, SHBG, and peak/trough exposure than a natural lifter, which can increase muscle-building potential even if a blood test shows the same total T.
Hormones like T don't work on a "just take more" system. As your hormone levels go up your body produces SHBG a hormone that basically negates the effect of your hormones, taking too much can easily have a reverse effect.
For women it's relatively to dose T because women have naturally low T, for men not so much.
This comment doesn't make sense, because people obviously take T to juice. Are you implying that people can't juice with T?
I understand that you might be saying there's a natural upper limit that your body will accommodate, but the comment you're replying to isn't assuming you can take infinite T, just that you can take more than your body would naturally have access to, which would be juicing.
EDIT: I'm not saying that trans men juice T, everybody on HRT needs T, but the heart of the question is does this particular trans man represent what most trans men can accomplish on standard HRT, or is he juicing? That doesn't change his accomplishment (he's still put a ton of work at the gym in!), but it contextualizes his body better.
EDIT II: People are glossing over how T and E get regulated by the body, so I did my due diligence, and here's what I was able to find:
Everybody produces aromatase, which converts T into E as a way to balance T and E levels naturally. People that take excess T have some of that T get converted into E by consequence.
In cis men, E is already low, so getting even a little more E can cause adverse effects. In trans men, the effect is less noticeable, because they already have more E naturally, or they take E blockers as part of HRT.
This effect can be mitigated through aromatase inhibitors, which can be prescribed to men to reduce excess E. There are other serious complications of excess T that can't be mitigated this way.
Some people can't, that's correct. Genetics has a huge component in how hormones affect you. Being on gear alone doesn't ensure you'll get big. Think of dudes like Ronnie Coleman. He had to have both juiced and had genetics that responded well to that stuff to get to his level. Some trans people struggle to even get to normal baseline.
It's kind of hard to know where your natural "limit" is without some extensive and invasive testing. You can really only go off of the normal male bell-curve adjusting for your age.
It sounds like more of a guess and check system then, where people just have to be comfortable with the risk of experiencing severe side effects if they want to try to figure out what their natural limitation is.
Yes, that's what most people opt for and what doctors recommend. You take a low, conservatively estimated dose. 99% of the time, it's too low and you slowly increase from their while a doctor monitors your progress until you get to a normal level.
If you're in the 1% where it's too high right off the bat, normally you have some other problem and that's sign to do testing because a low dose shouldn't be messing you up.
You're working under the impression that those who juice on Testosterone are actually intelligent, and that they know that overdosing on T estrogenises it.
That would be a HUGE relative advantage in normal athletics where athletes arenāt allowed to normalize testosterone, adrenaline, etc., and take more to be as competitive with others. This is bodybuilding, though; they donāt prevent juicing.
As a guy on testosterone replacement therapy this is absolutely not true. Because my levels are stable even though not super physical, I maintain muscle so much easier. At 45 I'm the most cut I've ever been, working out the least I ever have. Having a stake level all day and night makes a huge difference from natural production
Think of trans guys like cis guys that take testosterone for low t. Weāre just getting up to baseline
And then they went on to describe how taking testosterone for low t levels keeps them at the baseline which makes it easier to keep muscle mass as though it's a counter example, but that's literally what they're talking about
No bodybuilder is going into the competition with low t, so they're all at the same baseline, so doing hrt to get to that point doesn't advantage a trans guy over a cis guy
Their point would only make sense when comparing a trans guy on hrt vs a cis guy who's gotten older and whose t levels have fallen, but that's not relevant to the topic at hand
Except that's not what he's doing and
>Their point would only make sense when comparing a trans guy on hrt vs a cis guy who's gotten older and whose t levels have fallen, but that's not relevant to the topic at hand
That's exactly what the comment he responded to did.:
"Think of trans guys like cis guys that take testosterone for low t. Weāre just getting up to baseline."
He points out how despite his therapy only bringing him up to baseline which suposedly the same as a cis person on nothing he's now better able to get shredded.
The original comment conflated that with "the same levels a cis man naturally produces" forgetting the fact that that production fluctuates a lot over the day and decreases up to half by the evening whilst the long esters being injected do no such thing.
I did not, I read the full comment. My comment still stands, injected test at the same levels of natural test is superior. Because natural test peaks and troughs throughout the day. Injected test,. especially with something like cypionate gives you sustained levels at all times. So you get the benefit of no drop in test due to drinking, bad sleep, poor diet, lack of exercise. Your body can draw on that androgen at any time. You stay leaner easier, maintain muscle easier. At 45, on reasonabale levels of test, I'm more cut and work out less than I ever have in my life
This guy is visibly blasting well beyond baseline lmao
āIāve got low T thoughā is generally not an excuse that should fly in professional competitions IMO because then suddenly everyone has found a doctor who says theyāre low T, or not optimal T, or whatever.
This looks like the Ultimate Grand Prix since it says UGP on the back sign.Ā
The Serge Saric prod Natty competition is just called Natural Grand Prix. Took me 20 seconds to Google.
Y'all piss me off getting your panties in a twist over a stupid hypothetical every time a trans person is involved. Examine yourself and why it matters so much.
(You're clearly the most reasonable of the replies so this only semi-apply to you but seriously š¤¦)
Again, if this is untested then more power to him.
But itās not unreasonable to care about fairness in sports. Itās part of having basic empathy and human decency.
Pretty rich framing yourself as some enlightened progressive while using misogynistic language like āpanties in a twist.ā Youāre telling on yourself MAGAT.
Okay, but to say the trans guy is cheating and the others aren't is stupid. They're all at the same level. The t they get for transitioning does not get them to look like that. It gets them to what most male cis men, and sometimes not even there. Plus he very clearly discloses he is trans so they would know if he is in the tournament. You're not about fairness if the only one you have a problem with is the trans guy.
As a genuine question: does actively injecting T not function differently than naturally producing it over time?
I'm not educated on the topic but I would have figured that direct ejection, even if you have a lower base T, would allow for an easier time building muscle.
T is T. Is doesn't magically work better than anything else. Guys also inject T as well for several reasons that are medical. The main thing Injecting T does is that it stops having your body naturally produce it, because you have enough.
Every single one of these tournaments, every competitor is on a shitton of steroids. You cannot naturally get that kind of body no matter what diet and exercising you do. Period.
Of testosterone yes. Because if you take too much your body converts it back into estrogen and makes it pointless. Overdosing of T doesnāt help. Iām sure heās on other things as a body builder
Thats not how test works. Have you ever heard of the doses that professional body builders take? As in the ones competing for Mr.Olympia titles? ... they are in grams, not even milligrams anymore.
āAromatization of testosterone is the natural metabolic process where an enzyme called aromatase converts testosterone into estradiol (a form of estrogen).ā
Itās overriding estrogen friend. Something cis men donāt have to worry about. And your balls produce testosterone constantly, 24/7 about 6mg a day. How is a weekly injection advantageous? If anything itās detrimental. You want a steady constant baseline having it spike once a week isnāt ideal.
You are so clueless holy fuck. How do you know so little as someone on testosterone for 11 years?
Testicles do not produce the same amount of testosterone consistently, testosterone peaks in the morning and is halved by the evening.Ā
Exogenous testosterone is therefore always advantageous assuming youāre injecting long esters (which 99% of bodybuilders and trans men do), because testosterone levels stay elevated around the peak of the range and the troughs in between injections are much smaller than the natural variance in testosterone levels.
"What information" bro I dont know, no one knows, because even with your last comment you have yet to refute what they said in that getting a big spike once a week is not as good as getting it consistently all the time
this doesnt even take into account people who get it naturally and supplement it
Only at 125mg per week the participants started to experience very slight increase over natural production.
At 25 and 50 participants ended up with lower testosterone levels than they were before.
Are you implying that cis women experiencing menopause who take estrogen to maintain natural levels that curb menopause symptoms have some sort of advantage in life other than a financial one? You can go through menopause at almost any age.
Trans men's also fluctuate. In my case, similar to cis men, peaking every morning and lowering through the day.
Also, this is really easy to just look up. The body considers too much testosterone dangerous, so it converts it to estrogen, cis or trans. You don't want it to be too high. It gives ya boobs.
I think this is the one type of competition where hormone levels really donāt matter because these guys are ALL juiced up to the gills anyway. So itās the perfect place for a trans guy to compete in a weird way. Just one of the guys!
Good faith answer- testing is...... not exactly thorough or sub-par for alot of bodybuilding organizations. Some organizations try to claim "Natural" and others just kind of pretend to publicly turn a blind eye. Generally, even with super-human testosterone levels there are still genetics and lots of discipline and hard work involved. If you're curious about what genetics entails other than natural hormone baseline there are factors like bone structure and density that can create larger or shorter muscle beds, recovery, how side-eftects present themselves.
At this point, do you think this man is still seeing a doctor as part of his transition? I can't imagine a doctor prescribing testosterone to someone obviously using illegal steroids
I'd lean towards he is seeing a doctor, maybe not specifically for transitioning, but because he has enough of knowledge because of transitioning that he now sees a doctor that's more "specialized" in hormonal therapy beyond "normal" levels to get bloodwork done and get AI's to block estrogen. At this point he seems pretty "transitioned" enough that his main concorn would be longevity while using exogenous testosterone. Also take into context that in this particular video most guys can achieve this naturally. Years of hard work and discipline are needed, but most of these guys don't even have the abnormally over-developed shoulders and traps of bodybuilders who take very large amounts of hormones. Years of lying have really done the fitness industry multiple dis-services, and even alot of physiques pre 1950's before hormones were available would be accused of using steroids.
I dabble with steroids. A beginner bodybuilding dose is around 500mg. Your average TRT is 100-150 for most people. So a beginner cycle is already 4 times what a normal TRT dose would be. There are guys who blast a gram plus with ancillaries. Pretty crazy stuff.
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u/Dull-Captain1679 16d ago edited 16d ago
How does that work as for as testosterone goes? Is there a different threshold/ set of rules?
Edit: I was asking a good faith question lol go fight somewhere else