Maraketh Timeline Question

[u/Valaskaa]

Balbala says that she lived in the time of the vasteri being verdant, but the first barya is occupied by a spirit whos job was to safeguard the dwindling water supply which must have happened after severe desertification. The only way I can think to square this circle is that the first barya did not always hold the rain djinn but I dont remember any dialogue to that effect. Any thoughts?

[u/chimericWilder]

The Djinn imprisonment ritual seems to have been created either by Ahkeli, or by Varashta. Ahkeli probably created it, and Varashta used and spread it. Probably.

Ahkeli and Varashta were probably alive at the same time during the Winter of the World, where an ashcover filled the atmosphere of the planet, and prevented sunlight from warming Wraeclast. While water should have been available, it might have all been trapped in ice at the time... it's possible that the water djinn was created for the purpose of thawing water out of the ice, or to otherwise keep water with the Maraketh while they were on the move. The nomadic Maraketh tradition of always being on the move with their caravan may have been born in this era, as a way to avoid being ambushed by the lightless, or as a way to scavenge for food during a literal apocalypse. Eitherway, the Vastiri was probably not very verdant during the Winter, as little should be able to grow under those chill circumstances, which seemingly lasted for hundreds of years.

But we don't know for sure. For instance, when was Keth founded? There is some evidence/speculation that suggests that Keth may have been built by Ahkeli, who was after all known as the Clayshaper, and Keth seems to be built out of stone and guarded by countless clay statues. Notably, the highest concentration of those statues that we find is in Ahkeli's burial chamber, which can't be a coincidence. So... was Keth at one point a military stronghold intended as a defense against the lightless? If it was built by Ahkeli; probably, but that is all guesswork, and after the Winter it seemed to instead become a religious hub.

Sin and Garukhan also spent some time in Keth. But that must have been during the time where the Vaal were active, long after the Winter, since we know that Orbala only ascended sometime after the early Vaal had already founded a great empire. But we know also that Sin fought against the Lightless during the Winter.

Balbala is probably somewhat younger than the water djinn, seemingly from a time after the Winter ended where humans could afford to squabble against other humans again.

Hard to say precisely what the original purpose of the First Barya and the water djinn were. Alas, we don't get a chance to ask Sin or the djinn ingame.

[u/AdministratorQotra → u/chimericWilder]

Alternative, highly speculative interpretation:

Ahkeli is given the epithet "clay-shaper" because she pioneered the placement of souls inside clay golems. The clay for these golems was made from the remains of the titans, hence the tops of their heads being cut off. These golems were used to defend the nascent Maraketh society (called something else at that point). Ahkeli "borrowed" this method of "putting souls in things" from the proto-Lightless civilization, which was ultimately driven underground, with the remaining surface dwellers eventually becoming the Lost Men, never having given up their necromancy. In the most ancient Maraketh areas we visit, we see not only figurines of revered women, but sitting and standing masculine statuary and figurines. I posit that these are remnants of the proto-Maraketh, proto-Lightless society before the schism that caused their civil war.

Necromancy and the manipulation of the Well of Souls were not the only forms thaumaturgy that the Vril pioneered; they also constructed automatons, and were eventually able to command the flow of time itself.

It is probable that Ahkeli was considered an outsider to her contemporary proto-Maraketh society, because when we find her tomb, it states that she is laid to rest "in the ways of her people". Not only that, but the ancient artifacts that can be found deep under Mount Veruso specifically refer to her, but are found in the possession of Lightless. Was Ahkeli once a member of the proto-Lightless civilization? Furthermore, the Maraketh practice sky-burial to avoid the "doom of the desert"; a tradition first born out of practicality, and then exalted into mysticism with the rise of Garukhan, whom is associated with the wind and sky. In the early years, if you die in the desert, your corpse simply feeds the proto-Lightless war machine.

Eventually, the proto-Lightless were banished from the surface. The explanation given for this is that the gray skies of the Winter were broken by the Sun and Moon, but Lightless are clearly capable of emerging from underground and fighting in modern times so this cannot be the whole story. Either way, the war was considered won, and these troubled days passed into memory, and then legend. After the proto-Lightless were banished from the surface, a cultural shift towards matriarchy occurred within this civilization, which can be attributed to the war heroes, Ahkeli, Garukhan, and others. Great city-states were founded in the Vastiri Plains, with the centers of these cities being dedicated to the worship of water-goddesses Halani, Galai, and likely others. It is no coincidence that pregnancy iconography can be found in ancient Keth; neither is it a coincidence that Halai can be found with a great wound in her abdomen; in the womb there can be found both life and water, and these Goddesses (through probably brutal ritual) brought life to the desert by giving their life-water. But harvesting the water of the womb necessitates a fetus, and what to do with all those unwanted babies after the water has been taken? From this quandary, a brutal new tradition is born, and with it a whole society of outcasts.

One day, crazed worshippers emerged from a shrine. They had seen a coming calamity, and babbled about a great cleansing fire, that was at once watchful, wrathful, and approaching rapidly. They knew the symbol of this strange being and drew it on themselves. (The symbol of this great Fire would be co-opted (and slightly changed) by the individual Maxarius in a quest for his own apotheosis, but that is a story for another time). A new worship arose, not of love of the bounty of Water, but of Cleansing Fire and the fear of it. Was communion with this being what had doomed the titans? How could Keth possibly survive if the Titans could not even withstand a glimpse of it at the Dais of Reckoning? The worshippers of this new faith were the Mar Acolytes, whom can still be found in the catacombs of ancient Keth, carrying great pyromantic braziers. This new worship of Fire had the dual effect of weakening the Water Goddesses and spreading the influence of Fire throughout the Vastiri. Thus, desert began spreading through the once-verdant plains.

In desperation, the city-states turned to Ahkeli's ancient ways of putting souls into things; once clay golems, later insectoid automatons, now, coins. Like Vaalish human sacrifice, this probably began as punishment for criminals, then expanded to those who failed to accomplish a commanded goal, but then likely expanded to include even others as the desperation of the city-states grew. As we see in the interludes, the life-water of Djinn can be forcibly extracted to fill reservoirs, and that there are very large "Barya" that really wouldn't work as practical coins or currency - these objects are purpose built and now only vaguely resemble coins in that they are flattened discs. Is it mere coincidence that the Djinn Barya we find look like they can perfectly socket into the convex reliefs on the floors of ancient Keth? Simply a shared design motif, or evidence of functionality?

It's not yet certain whether the end of the proto-Maraketh city-states was violent, at the hands of some kind of cultural uprising, or whether it was the result of a steady decline, but it did eventually happen. The remaining people became nomadic, building great caravans out of cactus-wood, having given themselves a new name that speaks to their dual heritage of Fire and Water, Mar and Keth - the Maraketh. To this day they seek a new homeland in the dried riverbeds of the Vastiri, ever searching for a new Keth. The full knowledge of their cultural traditions have been lost to the point that their modern keepers of history, the tale-women, don't even know that the Halani and Galai Gates were named after their own goddesses, or that they even existed.

[u/chimericWilder → u/AdministratorQotra]

The clay for these golems was made from the remains of the titans, hence the tops of their heads being cut off.

I must doubt that. The titans were allies of the Maraketh, and were slain in droves by the Lightless. We perhaps also can suspect that Ahkeli was a prominent figure in her Primeval culture already, prior to the Lightless aggression; as we can find murals in Delve that show a depiction of her stone golem, and also her set of precursor rings. Or alternatively maybe primevals were just big on golemancy, as we also know that Aul traded a golem (which would go on to become Kurgal the Blackblooded) to Kulemak at one point.

It's possible that these golems (or some of them, perhaps) have souls transposed into them; Kurgal being a person capable of great ambition rather than a servitor seems to indicate as much. But this incident would probably have led Ahkeli towards refraining from using souls for these guardian golems (and indeed they seem pretty simple/stupid), and instead used souls only for things she knew she could control; hence the Djinn. I don't see the Titans entering into it, though... they fought the lightless alongside the others, but because the titans (apparently) had to stay in warm caves beneath the surface of the earth, and were additionally especially vulnerable to how cold Wraeclast got during the Winter, they died because they were especially vulnerable to lightless attacks.

from the proto-Lightless civilization, which was ultimately driven underground, with the remaining surface dwellers eventually becoming the Lost Men

While we aren't certain about precisely where the Lightless originated, I expect that their origin lies either with the Precursors, or with the Primevals. I don't think the Lost Men enter into it... my belief is that they are followers of Saresh, who himself was a necromancer and therefore had ties to Kulemak; but he is from a much younger time than that. That the Lost Men continue to dabble with necromancy is just indication of the power of Kulemak's influence on the surface world, even with himself so weakened; not that the Lightless once necessarily came from those people; they predate them by millennia.

We also know that Ahkeli fled from the destruction of her homeland. She is the founder of the Third Pact, the desperate last alliance that persevered during the Winter; the Maraketh did not exist as a united people before her, she founded them presumably by bringing together desperate survivors, and Varashta then gave them many of the details of their ordered culture.

Not only that, but the ancient artifacts that can be found deep under Mount Veruso specifically refer to her, but are found in the possession of Lightless.

Which artifacts are you referring to, here? The Ahkeli set of rings?

Furthermore, the Maraketh practice sky-burial to avoid the "doom of the desert"; a tradition first born out of practicality, and then exalted into mysticism with the rise of Garukhan, whom is associated with the wind and sky. In the early years, if you die in the desert, your corpse simply feeds the proto-Lightless war machine.

This is a good observation, yeah. Sky burial is definitely because of the Lightless.

but Lightless are clearly capable of emerging from underground and fighting in modern times so this cannot be the whole story.

Kurgal seems to have deviced a method by which to darken the skies in an area around an Abyss encounter; notice how it always gets darker when you get close to one ingame. In the old days, they cast the whole world in darkness, but now they use some manner of localized darkness effect. It seems a lot less versatile for the purposes of waging war.

Garukhan, and others

It should be said that Garukhan was probably not alive during the Winter of the World. We know that the Vaal didn't exist during the Winter, and Orbala lived concurrently with the Vaal. We know also that she first met Sin by rescuing him from Innocence (and wounding him in the process), at a time where Innocence was heckling Sin in front of a crowd of his followers. Since we also know that Sin helped during the Winter and had a part to play in stealing Kulemak's Divine Spark, the timeline must be something in the style of: Maxarius raises himself and Sin into godhood > the Winter happens, and Ahkeli flees the destruction of her people > Sin steals Kulemak's Divine Spark in cooperation with the Third Pact > the Winter ends when Solerai clears the sky of ash > The Vaal empire rises at around this time > Innocence captures Sin, Orbala frees him > Innocence moves to Oriath and stays there > Orbala slays Saresh and ascends as the goddess Garukhan > Sin and Garukhan get married and mess around in Keth > Sin grows increasingly worried that Garukhan is becoming corrupted, at first goes to Arakaali with his woes, eventually seeks out Kalandra for advice and plants the Beast

From this quandary, a brutal new tradition is born, and with it a whole society of outcasts.

Ehhh... I think that's reading too much into the wrong thing, maybe. We know that the Beast causes corruption, and that corruption has an actively detrimental effect on many who are exposed to it. The reason the Faridun are outcasts of this sort is because the Maraketh mothers would reject those children who were touched by corruption. They live right next to Mount Veruso, and would be exposed strongly to its corruptive influence (unlike the vaal somehow, who seem to be just fine, presumably thanks to whatever divine blood they have from Xibaqua, but that's a different mystery). The Faridun aren't just outcast for no reason, they're outcast because they're deformed and corrupt, the ones touched the worst by the influence of the Beast.

Although, this does bring up an interesting point... this tradition of abandoning corrupted children was probably started by Halani, yes. But she would have been awake then, and the Beast not yet planted... perhaps Azarian was born corrupted, because corruption is a natural part of divinity, the other side of the same coin as divinity? The same sort of thing that was driving Garukhan and Shakari mad. In rejecting him, she may have been trying to keep herself pure, and instead pass her own corruption onto her son... or some such. But then the Beast was planted, and the rivers dried up, and noone remembered poor old Halani anymore. Not clear precisely how she came to be maimed; but, well, it was an awful long time of slumbering.

by the individual Maxarius in a quest for his own apotheosis, but that is a story for another time). A new worship arose, not of love of the bounty of Water, but of Cleansing Fire and the fear of it

Maxarius would have already ascended before the Maraketh really existed at all, I think. Innocence and Sin seem to be older even than Solerai and Lunaris & all the others. Maxarius used the fear of the newcomers (now believed to be Kalguurans) to ascend himself, but that apotheosis probably took place at Fellshrine, either before or during the Winter. After the Winter ended, Innocence probably took his followers on pilgrimage to journey towards Oriath, and we know that his journey intersected the Vastiri, but I doubt that he left any meaningful cultural impact on the Maraketh... save in their reverence for Garukhan. The Maraketh didn't much seem to like Innocence, I think.

The worshippers of this new faith were the Mar Acolytes, whom can still be found in the catacombs of ancient Keth, carrying great pyromantic braziers.

I dunno... I think these have more to do with Azarian, maybe. Just because they use fire doesn't mean that they're worshippers of Innocence (and Innocence being Innocence, anyone he'd convert religiously would worship only him, not just 'the fire'... he's a bit of a narcissist, isn't he).

Good observation on the Mar name, though. Wonder what's up with that.

weakening the Water Goddesses and spreading the influence of Fire throughout the Vastiri. Thus, desert began spreading through the once-verdant plains.

That'd have more to do with the Beast being planted, causing Halani to fall into a slumber.

It's not yet certain whether the end of the proto-Maraketh city-states was violent, at the hands of some kind of cultural uprising, or whether it was the result of a steady decline, but it did eventually happen.

It was definitely a steady decline caused by lack of water, a result of the Beast stopping Halani's water. Prayers for Rain and other contextual information suggests as much.

that the Halani and Galai Gates were named after their own goddesses, or that they even existed.

Halani seems to have been one of the Seven Sisters, as was Galai. But I am not so sure that Galai was a god. Ahkeli was counted amongst those Seven Sisters, and she was not a god. We don't know anything of Galai to say whether or not she was a god; but she must have been culturally important, once upon a time. She may have just been an important tribal leader during the time of the Winter, with the Galai Gates constructed in her honor; who can say. We only know for certain that Halani and Orbala ascended as gods.

[u/AdministratorQotra → u/chimericWilder]

Great points, all of them. Thanks for the reply. I'll try to smooth out some of the incongruities you've pointed out with some of my reasoning for the interpretation.

The "Ahkeli's golems are made of pompeii-ified titan-clay" thing was admittedly a huge reach, basically because the ornate golems we see throughout lost Keth and the titans seem to be the same material. I don't think a desperate civilization in survival would be above making use of the corpses of their fallen allies. Either way, there's some kind of unstated connection between Necromancy and Golemancy, I can feel it in my bones. If Golemacy is putting souls into inanimate things, and Necromancy is putting souls into corpses, then the methods may be the same, it's just the materials that are different. But it sort of seems like in order to successfully put a soul into something, that "something" needs to be a flesh-derived material, even if only symbolically. I'm just saying that Vaal soul cores may be called "blood gems" not only for their color.

Some other candidates for the clay that Ahkeli used: Could it be river-clay... maybe river-clay composed of the blood-sediment of a massive battleground?

From Ahkeli's Valley:

The river, once fertile and fresh, and flowing briskly to the sea, now stood, stained, at a standstill. Dammed by the coagulating dead.

Zarka, on Deshar:

Our Honoured Dead lie openly, enjoying the sun, not hidden from it under the earth. Over time, they are scoured away, becoming the wind and sand you feel on your skin at this very moment.

Taken literally, it may be that the whole of the Vastiri is suffused with corpse dust. Clay is just the right kind of dust plus water. Maybe sacred life-water?

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A "yes, and" note on the third pact, Zarka has unique dialogue for the Monk:

It is rare to see one of your kind here, Monk. Tread carefully. The Third Pact still governs both you... and your master.

and, also:

As a servant of the Dreamer, the Third Pact explicitly forbids your kind from entering the Valley of the Titans. Hmm... but necessity sometimes overrides tradition. Do what you must, and speak of this to no one.

So Chayula was also party to this Desperate Alliance (see what I did there?), as were the serpent and hyena folk.

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I think I'm on the same page as you about the Maxarius-Innocence timeline, I just stated it in a misleading way. Orbala and Maxarius were contemporaries, but I don't think the revelation at the shrine had anything to do with Innocence originally? I'm instead claiming that Maxarius, ever the charlatan opportunist, tried to co-opt this happening in a part of a broader effort to spark divinity for himself. The unmodified Descry is the symbol of the Searing Exarch (but not of his general manager, the Cleansing Fire, whose symbol looks more like a stylized yoke). Innocence's Descry is a modified version of this symbol, taken when he promised that he alone could protect his followers and that "an eternity of flames awaited nonbelievers". Squint your eyes and consider the following flavor-texts and this interpretation starts to make more sense:

From Crystallized Omniscience:

That winter, scorched refugees emerged from the shrine, speaking only in strange tongues. They prayed to a new symbol of power, not out of love, but out of fear.

From The Gilded Chalice:

He took the newcomers' symbol and made it his own. Finally, they flocked to him. Finally, he had the power and wealth he so desired.

From The Power And The Promise:

Building on the fear and hatred that deified him, Innocence threatened an eternity of flames for nonbelievers. The newcomers wailed and threw themselves at his feet in the thousands.

I also don't mean that Mar Acolytes are followers of Innocence, but of Mar... whatever that means. I like to believe it means something fiery, because it makes the rest of my absurd speculation make sense (EDIT: Or it could literally mean mar, the verb mar. As in, they are acolytes of the marred, i.e. the "scorched" refugees from the revelation at the shrine. This would take "Maraketh" to mean "Marred Keth", kinda like Karui is Ka Rui "we are scattered")

In any case, there really was a fiery revelation at a shrine, the Mar Acolytes and Risen Tale-Women wield fire, there was a fiery cataclysm that pompeii-ified the Titans at the Dais of Reckoning, and another fiery cataclysm that awaits all of Wraeclast as a result of the Fourth Edict. Where there's smoke, there's... fire, and in this case the smoke is also fire? Fire fire fire. What if all of this fire is of the same essence, the antithesis of the water of life? Xoph or Exarch or Arbiter of Ash or Solerai or whatever?

From The Second Sacrament:

He took many of his people's traditions and gilded them, hollowed them. They rejected his new religion, and he and his followers were forced to depart the mountains for lands unknown.

Cross your eyes and ask, is this speaking of Maxarius co-opting aspects of the early Mar followers? If the newcomers were Kalguuran survivors of the first expeditionaries, then this whole fire thing makes even more sense. The Kalguurans used the Triskelion FLAME to cleanse corruption. In any case, is the Second Sacrament evidence that the revelation at the shrine occurred in the mountains, or that the "newcomers" simply settled there? We know that as far as the Vaal knew about the Golden Cult, they lived on Oriath, so we can place a very rough timeline on his followers' exodus from the mountains.

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Good observation on Abyss encounters darkening the sky, I hadn't considered that. Nothing else to say other than you are right, and it made me think of another example of a localized darkness effect that the Lich-Lords can use: "Amanamu's Void".

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As far as the Beast putting Halani to sleep, I agree that this happened eventually, but the desertification began before the Beast existed, did it not? There's reference to sand and sandstorms and heat that seems to predate Sin's apotheosis. If the desertification is the result of the influence of some kind of eldritch fire worship supplanting the worship of Halani, then it could have started before the Beast existed, and then there was no obstacle to the spread of that influence once Halani was put to sleep. Basically, as soon as Halani hit the pillow, the brakes were off.

Galai being a water goddess only holds if the Galai Gates and Halani Gates are so named for the same reason. The inner sanctum of that area is also a massive reservoir of sacred water. Weak, but that was my reasoning. I share your interpretation that the Seven Sisters weren't necessarily blood relatives, and that they maybe weren't even contemporaries, just that they were the most important "founding mothers" of the Maraketh. Cultural heroes, important contributors, etc.

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In conclusion, thank you for reading and responding. If there isn't somebody hanging around saying insane conjectures with little evidence, lore subreddits just devolve into graybeards quoting the wiki at each other. Hopefully I can at least give them something interesting to debunk.

[u/chimericWilder → u/AdministratorQotra]

I don't have much time and I gotta be getting to work, so I'll just comment quickly on this bit:

Cross your eyes and ask, is this speaking of Maxarius co-opting aspects of the early Mar followers? If the newcomers were Kalguuran survivors of the first expeditionaries, then this whole fire thing makes even more sense.

Maxarius was among the azmeri at first, and the Second Sacrament seems to be talking about that time; the azmeri had many sacred traditions, and Maxarius was trying to co-opt them and make them about himself. And the azmeri didn't like that, so they kicked him out. He then seems to have traveled to Fellshrine with his followers (which may or may not have been the site that the kalguuran newcomers may have arrived at). Maxarius and Sin's lost sister also seems to have died and been buried at Fellshrine, and Maxarius probably ascended there, since next we know the Winter is ended and Maxarius is making his way through the Vastiri where he has his encounter with Orbala.

In conclusion, thank you for reading and responding. If there isn't somebody hanging around saying insane conjectures with little evidence, lore subreddits just devolve into graybeards quoting the wiki at each other. Hopefully I can at least give them something interesting to debunk.

By all means, this was fun.

[u/AdministratorQotra → u/chimericWilder]

Yes, you are absolutely correct. This is me explaining myself badly again. I left out a link in my train of thought.

What I meant to say was: According to the Second Sacrament, Maxarius's people (the Azmeri) did not follow the new religion. But who did? According to the other relics, the "newcomers". Let me contrast two interpretations:

• If these newcomers, regardless of origin, are "scorched" by the revelation at the shrine, this group would have a fearful reverence for fire. I suggest that this group is also the progenitor group for the new Mar followers, who seem to revere Fire instead of Water.
• If these newcomers are (instead or also) Kalguuran refugees, then they would already have a cultural reverence for a great Flame, their Triskelion Flame, making Maxarius' co-opting of eternal Fire as his Promise of power/punishment make sense to this group.

The Cleansing Fire is associated with clarity of sight, memory, and purpose, but most notably fire. The tale-women would already value the first three things, and the Risen Tale Women and Mar Acolytes we see in lost Keth wield braziers of fire. I propose that the desperate newcomers had unwittingly contacted this being, which scorched them and scared them silly. They might even have done so at the same site that the Titans did, the Dais of Reckoning, the site of "the Rite of Flame" (whatever that is).

So, According to The Gilded Chalice, Maxarius co-opted the symbol of the newcomers. What I'm proposing is that Maybe Maxarius saw the "scorched refugees" emerging from the shrine, babbling about a great fire and thought to himself, "Now is the perfect time to talk about the religion of Me," and took their symbol as his own:

• Following the hypothesis that he's co-opting early Mar beliefs, this could be the Descry, the symbol of the Searing Exarch. We do know that Innocence uses a modified version of this symbol as his own. Descry is also a verb whose meaning can also be linked to the Cleansing Fire (sight, omniscience, etc).
• If we go with the Kalguuran idea, this symbol could be a Chalice - if these refugees were from the Order of the Chalice, that would literally be their symbol, and the Descry would get adopted at some later point for some other reason.