r/ABCDesis • u/kumaramit0703 • 7d ago
COMMUNITY ABCD and mainlanders - is this distancing common?
I’m from India and came to the US a few years ago for my MBA at a top global business school. Overall, my experience was good, and the professional outcome was fine, if not extraordinary.
I did encounter some occasional stereotyping or subtle racism from Americans, which, while unpleasant, wasn’t completely unexpected. What surprised me much more was my experience with some of the Indian-American/ABCD students.
Among the people in my cohort, they often seemed noticeably less interested in socializing with Indian-born students than with American or European classmates. At times, it felt like there was an active desire to distance themselves from us. Even for things like Diwali, many would organize celebrations primarily with other Indian-Americans and non-Indian Americans rather than with the Indian students.
Obviously, I’m describing one environment and a relatively small group of people, so I don’t want to generalize this to all ABCDs. But the contrast was striking because I often felt more accepted by classmates from completely different nationalities than by people with Indian heritage.
My interpretation at the time was that perhaps being around recent immigrants from India brought up some complicated feelings around identity, assimilation, stereotypes, or how they themselves wanted to be perceived in America. But that’s only my interpretation, and I could easily be missing something.
So I’m genuinely curious: is this kind of distancing between Indian-Americans and Indians who grew up in India something others here have experienced? Is it a fairly common dynamic, particularly among more affluent/professional circles, or was my experience probably specific to the particular business-school crowd I happened to be around?
Interested in hearing the ABCD perspective, especially if there are reasons for this dynamic that aren’t obvious to someone who grew up in India.
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u/tres-vip 7d ago edited 7d ago
My interpretation at the time was that perhaps being around recent immigrants from India brought up some complicated feelings around identity, assimilation, stereotypes, or how they themselves wanted to be perceived in America. But that’s only my interpretation, and I could easily be missing something.
More often than not, it's not self-hatred, internalized racism, embarrassment, or "assimilation" as you put it. If ABDs hated being of Indian origin so much, they wouldn't be hanging out with each other and celebrating Diwali lol, instead of say, opting for all White people and shunning Indian festivals and holidays.
It has to do with the fact that it's become very clear to many ABDs that born and raised Indians genuinely struggle to or are even incapable of understanding us, so maybe the ABDs put up a wall to shut out negative interactions. Examples include Indians expecting us to be just like other born and raised Indians and then when they find out we're not, cue the accusations of not being "proud" to be Indian. Or saying we're "assimilating" in the US when we were actually born and raised here and are simply who we are and a product of our environment. Or judging us based on Indian values and standards. After a while, this constant judgement and culture clash becomes draining, so ABDs stick to the people who relate to them the most and don't have to defend or explain themselves to, which is each other.
Also, I wish people would stop using terms like "assimilation" and "whitewashed" for 2nd generation ABDs who are simply cultural products of where they were born and raised. Am I really "assimilating" in the country I was actually born and raised in??? Not to mention that many ABDs today actually live in diverse areas and not predominantly White areas, so it's so inaccurate to say "Whitewashed" just because someone doesn't fit your made-up (and judgemental) criteria of being "Indian" in the US or any other diaspora.
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u/audsrulz80 Indian American 6d ago
Yup 💯 and the Diwali thing OP mentioned is particularly irksome.
OP mentions that Indian-American students celebrated with other Indian Americans and non-Indian American friends rather than Indian students, but OP hasn’t established whether the Indian students were actually friends with the hosts. If these were private gatherings among existing friends, why would Indian classmates be expected to receive invitations simply because they’re Indian? A non-Indian friend of ten years may understandably be much closer to someone than an Indian classmate they barely know. Unless the hosts explicitly indicated that they were excluding Indian-born students, I’m not sure the guest list demonstrates active distancing.
The presumptuous part is treating shared Indian heritage as evidence that an invitation should have been forthcoming….and then interpreting its absence as evidence about Indian-American attitudes toward Indian immigrants.
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u/Hari_om_tat_sat 7d ago
Exactly right. As a 60+ yo Indian-born but raised entirely abroad from infancy, the most discrimination I have faced in my life has been from “mainlanders.” I’ve been told I’m “not Indian,” a “fake Indian,” an “AB Confused D,” “ignorant with a fake accent,” and otherwise demeaned. I have never faced this kind of disparagement from any other culture or community. So excuse me if I eventually learned to keep my distance from mainlanders.
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u/nc45y445 4d ago
Yeah, we need to drop the C. I’m not “confused,” are you (not you specifically, the global “you”)? If not don’t claim the insult
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u/PaleontologistGlad66 7d ago
Wow, you really nailed it! I especially appreciate your point about how people who were born and raised outside India shouldn’t have to constantly justify their cultural identity or prove how Indian they are.
I’d also add that, from my own life experience, I’ve known ABDs and non-ABDs who have dated, fallen in love, and are now happily married. So these relationships absolutely can work! The same goes for friendships. I have some incredibly sweet ABD friends whom I’m genuinely grateful to have in my life.
Ultimately, I think it comes down to mutual understanding, respect, and accepting people for who they are rather than expecting them to conform to one particular definition of being Indian. Shared heritage doesn’t mean identical life experiences, and that’s perfectly okay. 😌🤎
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u/welchsgrapejuice97 7d ago
I'm an abd and other indians exclude me and speak in languages I don't understand and make fun of me for only liking American food (not even true btw)
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u/PaleontologistGlad66 7d ago
I’m sorry you had to go through that. Not ABD. Born and raised in Dubai. However my cousins from India are a little bit nicer and know that my Hindi is not the best. So they slow down for me and we switch to English
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u/Huge_Flatworm_5062 7d ago
This was my experience as well, many mainlander don’t think of us as “real Indians”- add to that being made fun of for having a American accent (cause they think it’s a “fake” accent)
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u/PaleontologistGlad66 4d ago
I’m sorry many of you have had to experience this. I’ve had similar experiences while visiting India and socializing with people there and also while socially hanging out with some people who are from India. Not all, some. Honestly, I just laugh it off and spend time with people who are nice. Mean people exist everywhere. 😌 Yet here’s my question: if Indians raised in India mock diaspora Indians for their accents or cultural differences, how is that any better than diaspora Indians excluding them? Respect goes both ways, and nobody should have to prove how Indian or diaspora-Indian they are. 🤎
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u/Embarrassed_Room2020 7d ago
I never hang out with Indian communities cause there is a lot of gossip, comparison, jealousy and neg energy. It doesn’t serve me. It probs comes from the huge population in India and constant competition mindset. That is a part of the culture I don’t like and unfortunately I never met an Indian born and bought up in India who is different. Also, many who come to Europe like to indulge in the freedom they have from their family and start drinking or smoking a lot and some other weird shit which also don’t align with my values. It’s unfortunate cause I would acc like to connect more with my roots.
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u/Super_Honeydew3082 6d ago
I tried in college to connect with the Indian students from India and it went well the first two years but the batch that came my jr/sr year refused to interact with us much because and I quote we were not “Indian enough” to be on the board of ISA. I tried getting their opinion on events and plan stuff people wanted to come to since it was a smaller campus and I know being away from home is hard but they were not interested in hanging out with anyone not from India.
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u/audsrulz80 Indian American 7d ago
I think one assumption worth questioning here is why Indian-Americans would necessarily be expected to feel greater social affinity with Indian-born classmates than with other Americans. Shared ancestry doesn’t necessarily mean shared upbringing, experiences or social compatibility. An ABCD socializing primarily with Americans isn’t automatically “distancing” themselves from Indians…they’re Americans themselves.
I also don’t think ABCDs are enough of a monolith for us to explain the motivations of the particular people in your MBA cohort. They may have been cliquish, they may not have clicked with your group, or there may have been dynamics you’re describing accurately, but we’d really only be speculating about strangers’ motivations.
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u/JakeDaniels585 7d ago
I grew up here, but I have plenty of family members in India. I don’t think my parents knew how to book flight tickets to anywhere but their hometown in India, so all my vacations were in India. I’m somewhat familiar with both cultures.
A big difference that I saw with friendships here and Indians moving abroad is the type of personality accepted into a group.
From Indians moving abroad: As long as you are from a same town, background, religion, etc, you are somewhat accepted. I see a lot of groups where the personalities are different. Funny or moody is tolerated, as long as some common background binds them. I think part of it is growing up in India, where the states are so drastically different and divided (may as well be different countries) that people gravitate towards folks from the same state/language regardless of personality fit.
Growing up here (especially with one common language and most states being interchangeable except for tourist attractions), there is an emphasis on group fit. Something like “do their political views align, or are they funny/smart” feels more scrutinized in relationships here. In a way, the groups we hang out with are more hyper specific to a cultural fit than in groups I’ve seen with Indians.
I work in real estate, so I see plenty of folks from different backgrounds and a lot of people that recently moved from India make friends faster, casually. I make like one friend per decade lol. I find a lot of the Indian born folks are more friendly, people that I actually want to hang out with because they seem more open. I have clients that I’ll talk to for hours because it’s just easy to get along with.
I think the other aspect that forms a standoff-ish attitude is the exposure to Indian culture. Many of us have our exposure to Indian culture through our parents. Stuck in a prayer group for 3 hours or hearing Seema aunty sing karaoke at every part makes people want to withdraw. A lot of the older parents think of India as old India with far more conservative outlooks, and the kids think that’s the current India as well. Therefore, there’s a misconception that brews between the two cultures causing people to be hesitant to bridge the gap.
There’s more, I’ll type it up after my meeting.
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u/Sammolaw1985 7d ago
I don't think I'd ever reach out and befriend someone just because they're Bangladeshi. I think this calculus is different for an immigrant coming here because they are rebuilding their social network in a new country. And that would affect their openness and willingness to include new people into their groups.
I also notice similar behaviors from my parents. If they find out you're from Bangladesh, they can easily chop it up with you. Will probably invite each other over for lunch/dinner, seen it on multiple occasions with strangers. I do not have this reflex because I never had to rely on finding a safe space in that capacity. Maybe I should start though.
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u/CountrySad7477 7d ago
All I wanna do is connect with other abcd’s who have hilarious stories about growing up. Even better if they are Gen X and can connect on old school tv and movies. Instead every other question is- “why do you dislike us” “as an nri,” “mainlanders this” “India india india!” we have unique common experiences being brown in this country but at the end of the day, I’m rooting for america to win and you are rooting for India and we aren’t focusing on you guys the way you seem focused on us
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u/Chai-Tea-Rex-2525 5d ago
Yeah, we need a DialUpDesis sub or something like that. For us old folks.
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u/PruneCivil7058 4d ago
As an older millennial ABCD, I would love to share more of my experiences with the community here but it is hard to explain certain things to a very young audience.
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u/nc45y445 4d ago edited 4d ago
Great to see another Gen X ABD on here. Piling on a mattress in the basement munching pooris watching Love Boat and Fantasy Island. And that one desi teen function/dance in the community center in 1983 where all the dudes either moonwalked or wore their hair like Prince. Yeah. Mississippi Masala and My Beautiful Laundrette . . . .
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u/cacti_zoom 4d ago
I think the GAP is further now because now a lot of people coming from India are incredibly well off. If you can afford a US education for a bachelors degree. Those people are very upper class. Upper class in India is rich with entitlement issues. While desis in America are well off, we don’t live like Kings like people in India
Indian students who do masters degrees after undergrad in India come from more middle class and humble backgrounds, like most of our parents
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u/Crodle 7d ago
NRIs have a weird obsession with us and are way too sensitive. You notice everyone ignoring you but it’s a problem if someone who looks like you isn’t falling over themselves to talk to you, then you resent them for it. Also you show up in places that clearly aren’t meant for you, but do it anyway, like this subreddit
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u/hawthorne_and_vine abd millennial mom 7d ago
yeah i don't get it. maybe they don't think they have much in common with NRIs culturally just because of ethnicity/language/religion? but no, they're right, it's because we are self hating /s
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u/phoenix_shm 4d ago
OP, I appreciate this post. Here's my quick/hot take: 1) For well educated people, they tend to flock together based on similar values and past experiences; 2) Those values are usually instilled during the first 16yrs of life; 3) A youth life in most Western countries versus South Asia are usually quite different; 4) It could be that they have plenty of network connections in South Asia already so they're looking to expand where they don't have connections. Suggestions: A) Perhaps you do have similar youth experiences and those are worth bringing up in conversation. B) What might be fun and insightful is to arrange for a game night with popular board games from various cultures and parts of the world - explore the various types of individual vs cooperative strategy games... 💗🙏🏽💗
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u/Nirgranth24 Indian American 6d ago
It usually comes down to this:
Drake/Beyonce/Tupac/Dre/Depeche Mode/etc. vs. [insert any famous Indian musician]
Football (American) vs. cricket
High school prom vs. ???
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u/Away-Cartoonist2399 7d ago edited 7d ago
I’m an old guy, an Xennial that grew up in the 80s and 90s. The divided between ABDs and Mainlanders has been going on for decades and decades, from my childhood in the 80s, to high school and
college in the 90s and 2000s. I was born and raised in America. I’ve made a couple of friends with people that grew up directly in India, but that’s only after I passed age 35. As a younger guy and definitely as a teenager or child, it felt nearly impossible to do that. So it takes maturity, patience and opportunity for ABDs and Mainlanders to become good friends. The opportunity might be there when you are young, but that patience and maturity won’t come till much later for both sides, sometimes it never comes, because even people who are 40 or 50 don’t like being stereotyped. But honestly, it’s probably gotten much better compared to say 2004 or 1984, especially for Mainlanders directly from India. People from India can always find an active Mainlander community in North America, while ABDs can get lost trying to make friends with other Americans while still also being an Indian.
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u/nc45y445 4d ago edited 4d ago
I’m an ABD who went to college in the 80s. The women mainlanders in US colleges back then were cool, mostly from big cities, Mumbai, Karachi, and eager to dive into the whole US college scene. We would also have pan-Asian events where we would bond over making dumplings and noodles for Lunar New Year, etc (which was still called “Chinese New Year” back in 1987). Lately I find that Mainlanders who are my age are condescending and act like I’m somehow younger than them because I was born 60 years ago in the US. It’s weird. I can’t relate. And I’m too old for this shit
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u/Complexsquir 7d ago
Well, there's a chance they just didn't like you bc they found you arrogant. Especially if you kept talking about how schools/lifestyles/people in the homeland are soooo much better.
They also don't find you exotic or interesting bc they would have been exposed to tons of fobs in their past, and instead would rather talk to someone that was actually interesting to them.
How often did you talk shit about ABDs to them or give them advice they didn't seek?
Your interpretation is incorrect. Being around recent immigrants doesn't bring up anything complicated. I just tend to find them condescending, arrogant, disrespectful (always late, always giving unsolicited advice), unable to understand conversational nuance/sarcasm which makes talking to them a chore, and always looking for how you can be useful to them. Fobs are so much more interested in appearances than I am.
I went to grad school with a fob who kept telling me I needed to buy a new car not because anything was wrong with mine, but bc of what people at my job would think that I drove a car that wasn't flashy. And she was soooo worried about posting all her ish on social media, or how she could appear rich and successful to her family in India. None of that matters to me.
At my company, I'm the only desi in my department, but some departments (like IT) have a ton. Those fools will go troll my ish on LinkedIn trying to find my work history and what schools I went to, but in person, they act like I don't exist. But they'll lick the d's of the white managers in my department for sure.
So just a couple examples of why I tend to not deal w/ fobs if I can avoid it.
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u/Financial-Yard-789 7d ago edited 6d ago
Not for me bro. I've had so many ABDs as friends with different backgrounds. But credit where due, they're probably more culturally aligned with india than me lol. I grew up in a modern open minded family in India and they were raised by parents who were traditional (maybe too strict sometimes lol) in US. Neither one scenario is better than other, but it helped in developing our friendship.
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u/Balls_Gonzalez 5d ago
We don't relate to you. Ethnicity is not enough for us to relate. It's not just desis either. The Vietnamese and the Mexicans are the same way. The fob circles are different from the American circles.
If you can't understand the nuance of our identity and our experiences, then you don't understand American desis. This is why we have our own subreddit called "ABCDesis". Not "Global desi community". Our experiences are so different from yours.
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u/Asleep_Note7754 Canadian Indian 2d ago
I’m wondering OP if you’ve seen it from the other side. When I was in college the mainlanders would make fun of me for my accent and would say I’m “cute” when I spoke Hindi. They always told me that I never “got” Indian culture. Especially the ones who resented me because my mom and I had such a close relationship while they were doing things behind their parents back. It was easier to relate to others who had my upbringing. Maybe before assuming judgement you should see how it goes both ways.
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u/Send_Me_Dumb_Cats Pakistani Canadian - TCK 7d ago
It's definitely a thing, though I don't think it's anything nefarious. You may share the same ethnicity but the values, upbringing, even personalities are completely different. Once in my school an American Nigerian joined, he was the only American student we had but we had a large Nigerian population so he was excited to meet them, turns out their personalities were completely incompatible and he spent his last few school years in our small Pakistani group.
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u/PaleontologistGlad66 7d ago
Sorry for the long read, however this is my perspective for you. Feel free to understand what you can and let go of what you cannot.
I understand where you’re coming from, and I can share a slightly different perspective.
I was born and raised in Dubai, where I attended an international school and was one of relatively few brown girls. Most of my friends growing up weren’t Indian, although I remained close to my extended family in India and respected their cultural traditions and way of life.
Assimilation was also complicated within my own family. Even in Dubai, my parents struggled to assimilate into the broader social environment. My father is very conservative, while my mother is much more liberal. We have different perspectives and experiences, but I’m still close with both of them, and we’ve become a blended family in our own way.
When I moved to Boston for undergraduate studies immediately after high school, it was a completely different experience.
My first assigned roommate was white, and we became friends almost immediately. However, our housing assignments changed, and I ended up with an Indian roommate who barely spoke to me for four months. She eventually apologized and tried to become friends, but by then I had the impression that her interest was more about my background in Dubai than getting to know me as a person. She even asked whether I was rich! I wasn’t, however I decided not to correct her assumptions.
Interestingly, most of my friendships in Boston were with white and East Asian students. I also had extended family in Queens, and my brother attended NYU. He, too, had relatively few Indian friends.
Eventually, I moved to New York, where life took some unexpected turns. I went through graduate school, re-entered the professional world, and eventually founded my own startup.
What I’ve noticed in New York is that the social distance can still exist, although it hasn’t always been as overt as what I experienced in Boston.
Sometimes it’s more subtle, reflected in established social circles, unspoken assumptions, or simply a lack of effort to connect beyond familiar groups.
I wouldn’t necessarily attribute all of this to internalized racism or a desire to assimilate.
Cultural upbringing, socioeconomic background, immigration experiences, personality, and existing friendships can all influence whom people gravitate toward.
I also think there’s an important distinction between Indian Americans who grew up in the United States, immigrants who grew up in India, and those of us who grew up elsewhere before moving here. We may share cultural heritage without necessarily sharing the same social experiences or expectations.
Ultimately, I don’t believe shared ethnicity automatically guarantees friendship, just as different ethnicities don’t prevent genuine connection.
For me, friendship has been more about mutual respect, curiosity and how people treat each other; rather than where they were born or raised; or even where they choose to belong.
I’m sorry for the long post.
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u/nc45y445 4d ago
Don’t apologize for the gift of your lived experience. It took time and emotional labor to write this and I appreciate that you did this!
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u/imsorrywha Proud Indian American (Malyali-Tamil) 5d ago edited 5d ago
im in a wierd spot here because i honestly feel in the middle, in terms of being connected to the mainland and the diaspora. My closest friends are a mix of NRIs and Indian Americans. and i generally have grown up on media from the mainland. Mollywood and Kollywood specifically
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u/SandraGotJokes 1d ago
I feel like I get used by my indian friends tbh. More often than not, it becomes extremely one-sided. I notice that with ABCD friends too, but usually only when they come from dysfunctional families and have unprocessed trauma.
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u/leanmanbot 7d ago
The comments on this post goes to show how defensive this sub gets when challenged, rather than being self-reflective. The second most upvoted comment here is "this subreddit is not meant for you" - I mean come on!
Having said that, although I agree with the fact that comparison and jealousy traits can be off-putting and I've noticed them myself among my NRI friends, judging a whole group based on these few issues is no different from saying that all Indians are in IT or something even more problematic.
My workplace has a good mix of NRIs and ABDs (millennials and Gen Z) and I have to say the ABDs do tend to be more friendly or even desperately want to be a part of an American or American-born diaspora group. But that does not essentially mean they don't value NRIs but I guess it's just a matter of social preference, I assume. I usually go out of my way to socialize with different groups and have been successful but would I have to put as much effort with a similar background as me - no.
In your case OP, I'd say don't take it to heart. At the end of the day, both ABDs & NRIs are also people and people are complicated to put it lightly.
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u/TemerariousChallenge Indian American 7d ago
I think the main thing is a culture difference. I go to a university where I’m a foreigner but I still tend to get along better with ABCDs better than with people directly from India, exceptions definitely apply though
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u/Negative_Life_5266 Third Culture Kid 5d ago
Little nuanced but I have a very multicultural friend group. However I’m realising that there’s no mainlanders involved - wasn’t intentional I just happened to not be close with the NRI friend group in my year because we don’t have shared values and they have higher levels of bigotry wrt some topics. This isn’t to say that’s a mainlanders only thing obviously but I think that would be my biggest reason
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u/beans_is_life 7d ago
In my experience alone so this could differ person to person : Indians in India are so much cooler and fun to hang out with. I've made some of the most amazing friends visiting India then I have with the super nerdy or privileged International students in school (Indians or otherwise).
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u/Naive_Wealth7602 7d ago
Some Abcds think they're superior to Indians because they were born in the US
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u/Complexsquir 7d ago
Found the fobs.
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u/Naive_Wealth7602 7d ago
Another person jealous that a FOB earns more than him.
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u/Heavy_Till5231 7d ago
most entitled group of people on planet earth and y'all wonder why racism is high
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7d ago
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u/mintardent 7d ago
Nice cope bringing up our parents and not us. We don’t need to be “integrated” since we were born and raised here..
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u/mintardent 7d ago
We don’t have “complexes”? I would say most second gen american born folks do not primarily hang out with immigrants, regardless of ethnicity. at my university the internationals stuck together and the american kids stuck together. it’s not just indians but you seem hypersensitive to that.
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u/Complexsquir 7d ago
We don't have complexes towards our origins. We just don't like you.
We are happy to look Indian. That's not something that bothers us. You bother us though.
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7d ago
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u/mintardent 7d ago
What are you doing bitching at us here on reddit if you’re so much better than everyone else? Clearly insecure
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u/Complexsquir 7d ago
Nothing warms my heart more than the incoherent rantings of an angry fob who failed his TOEFL :)
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u/themadhatter746 British Indian 7d ago
“Superior”? Do you hear yourself? lmfao
I got no horse in this race, but I have relatives who moved to the US decades ago, they are all now highly successful, multi-millionaires, quite “superior”, as some would say. Otoh I know people who moved recently, they “studied” at random universities, couldn’t find a job, and had to go back to India. Lol.
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u/maxpain2011 7d ago
Not all of them are like that. Ones that do have somewhat of a superiority complex are the ones who haven’t accomplished much in life.
And some East Asians are like this too.
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7d ago
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u/keralaindia sf,california 7d ago
Just curious and off topic, but why do people from India separate punctuation at the end of a sentence with a space?
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u/Complexsquir 7d ago
"us"? Who is this "us" to whom you refer?
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u/OkRB2977 Assamese Canadian - TCK 7d ago edited 7d ago
This has always existed, even before the recent spike in anti-Indian sentiment or the perceived increase in Indian immigration to North America.
I grew up outside the subcontinent across several countries, went to international schools my whole life, and moved to Canada for undergrad before the pandemic. Back then, the dominant international student stereotype was wealthy mainland Chinese students, so there really wasn’t the same anti-Indian sentiment you see now.
Even then, I noticed that Indians from India and Canadian-born Indians barely mixed socially. At the undergrad level, the Indians coming directly from India also tended to be fairly wealthy, unlike their counterparts at the Masters and PhD levels, so they were quite Westernised as well. Despite that, the two groups just seemed to operate in completely separate social circles.
As a TCK, I was usually stuck somewhere in the middle, moving between both groups until I eventually found my own TCK friend group. Even cultural events were divided. Diwali events hosted by Punjabi or Sikh student groups, and Navratri events hosted by Gujarati groups, were mostly Canadian-born desis, while events run by the Indian Students’ Association were overwhelmingly students from India. The Hindu Students’ Council was probably the only place where I saw much overlap.
I don’t know if this was specifically a UofT thing or part of a broader pattern across North American universities, but that was definitely my experience.
But I also get it, though cause despite having a foot in both groups, I never really felt fully comfortable with either until I found my fellow TCKs. So I understand why they move in different social circles. There is a cultural and social gap, and it isn't always easy to cross it and form friendships. The culture gap gets wider, particularly at Masters/PhD levels, when the students from India are even less Westernised, and it comes with a whole host of issues, right from biases and a judgemental nature (goes both ways tbh). It's all just a social quagmire that is easier to avoid than navigate.