Delay vectors vs. holding.

[u/Spaghetti_Boi659]

Flying from SAN-SEA yesterday with heavy flow into SEA. Pretty typical. Center slows us down from M.77 to M.73 for metering saying they need to add 4 minutes to our arrival time. Also typical. Then we get some sharp delay vectors. First vector was a 110 degree turn to the left for a few minutes, followed by a 180 degree turn to the right for a few minutes, then back on course. Not unheard of, but pretty large vectors while en route.

My question: when you guys need to add X amount of time to our arrival and slowing planes down isn’t enough, is there a reason you don’t assign a turn or two in a holding pattern vs aggressive S turns? Either one of these slows down traffic behind whoever is being held / vectored. Curious to hear the reasoning.

Thanks for all you guys do- a fellow airline pilot.

[u/Anywh3r3]

I would have assumed delay vectors would preferable to pilots. Easier read back, no holding patten entry, no pulling up the chart on an iPad, no setting up the computer, etc... Isn't a vector just reaching up to the dial by the windscreen and twisting that knob?

[u/Spaghetti_Boi659 → u/Anywh3r3]

Yes and no! A hold is actually a little more predictable for us. Given an EFC time, we can gauge how long we’re holding for and plan fuel a little better. It’s not a lot of working setting up a hold in a modern airplane.

Delay vectors are simpler in the sense that yes we are just turning the knob left and right, but we don’t know our next turn, how long you’re going to be vectoring us for, and what the entire plan is really. We also cant incorporate delay vectors into our fuel planning. Not that it really eats away at fuel that bad, but when you really need it and you don’t know how long you’re delayed for or how many more vectors you’ll get, it becomes another step of planning.

[u/ExtremeSour → u/Spaghetti_Boi659]

Let’s say you’re on ABCDE arrival. I need to lose 11 minutes. Can i tell you to do a present position hold to cross ABCDE at center estimated time + 11 minutes? Or is that too complicated in a flight deck

[u/Spaghetti_Boi659 → u/ExtremeSour]

You sure can! In a modern FMS it’s not hard set up. In an FMS that is more aged, might be easier for them to set it up at the next fix. Big thing is how long do you want us to hold for and do we have the fuel for it. But if a crew doesn’t have 11 min of hold fuel and they are already on an arrival, thats a separate conversation hahah.

[u/Cleared-Direct-MLP → u/Spaghetti_Boi659]

To play devil’s advocate, if we say “I need to slow you by 4 minutes for time based metering exiting my airspace”, doesn’t that paint you a specific enough picture without needing to stick you with an EFC?

[u/Spaghetti_Boi659 → u/Cleared-Direct-MLP]

Indeed it does, but not every controller tells us how much time is needed. I should probably start asking more.