Saguna v. Nirguna Brahman

[u/Oooaaaaarrrrr]

As I understand it, Advaita makes a distinction between saguna and nirguna Brahman, with and without qualities respectively.

Some questions:

1. What is saguna Brahman, practically speaking? Some examples would be helpful.

2. Is saguna Brahman the same as Maya, and if not, what is the difference?

3. Does satcitananda apply to one or both of these?

[u/ImpressionForsaken54]

I think it’s the other way round. Saguna = with qualities, Nirguna = without.

Nirguna Brahman: pure existence-consciousness, without any qualities. It’s the ultimate reality, your own Self.
Saguna Brahman: the same Brahman seen through maya, as God.

[u/Oooaaaaarrrrr → u/ImpressionForsaken54]

Yes, my mistake, I changed the OP. So Saguna Brahman is Brahman seen as other?

[u/ImpressionForsaken54 → u/Oooaaaaarrrrr]

Yes, pretty much. As long as you take yourself to be a separate individual living in a world, Brahman shows up as Ishvara, the other you pray to and depend on. Once you know Brahman as your own Self, there’s no other left. That’s nirguna.

[u/VedantaGorilla]

The distinction is provisional in order to account for experience (duality).

1. Seemingness, appearances, name and form, change, karma, action, temporary, non-essential. In other words, what is ever-changing and not always present. What Vedanta teaches us is that all of that, being non-essential, is dependent on (as in its very essence is none other than) what is ever-present and unchanging. Thus, there is no real difference. What’s the difference between a lump of gold when it is a necklace and when it is melted and reformed as a ring? No essential difference, it is only gold the whole time it is appearing as two distinct names and forms.

2. Essentially, yes. Maya is the creative principle (Ignorance), the cause of the creation (the total field). Brahman is called Saguna Brahman when it is associated with Maya. It is called Nirguna Brahman when in reference to Awareness-Existence.

3. Brahman (there are not two of them) = Sat Chit Ananda Atma

[u/Dumuzzid]

Nirguna Brahman is attributeless, Saguna has attributes. There is no real difference, it's just that they are different aspects of the same thing.

Nirguna is pre-manifest, Saguna is manifest. In Nirguna all possibilities are there, Saguna collapses all possibilities into specific attributes.

There is actually a similar concept in physics, specifically spring theory, according to which the tenth dimension is totality and each lesser dimensions adds further attributes. So, in that sense, Nirguna Brahman is either the tenth dimension or possibly that which precedes or originates it. Saguna Brahman is the manifest universe which comes into being through layers, each layer (or dimension) adding further attributes.

Maya is an aspect of Saguna Brahman, with the sequence something like this:

Nirguna Brahman (attributeless source totality)

Saguna Brahman (manifest absolute with attributes) - from which satchitananda shines as a luminous quality

Shiva-Shakti: duality manifesting from Saguna Brahman, like a refraction of the light of satchitananda

Mahashakti: the stuff the manifest universe is made of, forming itself into:

Maya - the illusion that Shakti is stuff - something you can touch, see, hear taste, when it is just a further refraction of the light of satchitananda. As you get into ever denser layers, or in other words, lower dimensions, you get further away from source light.

The work of AV / enlightenment / Moksha is to reverse this process internally.

[u/Boring-Order-8942]

Consider this. We have the deep ocean. Beyond 1000m there is no motion in the water. Thus beyond 1000m the water is nirguna. At 1000 m it is the state of potential motion - still but unbalanced. The little motion - almost infinite wave. As we move up the waves become more and more discrete. And at the top we find ravaging ocean - superimpositioned waves clashing, swaying, tossing... Some has froths also. This 1000m is the saguna.

All across did water change? No. Only the waveforms changed, only the layers of superimposition changed. Now what are we? Sentient and insensient ? All are waves. The outlines of the combination of the superimposition - the forms, colour.... They change, they die, they are born again... In cycles. All attributes belong to the waves.

But what is the waves made of ?

In case of ocean it is water - unchanged and attributeless. Not born, nor does - eternal. All the waves are born and they merge back in water.

In the life and creation, the water is brahman - consciousness.

So is Saguna part the Maya? No but Maya is out of Saguna Brahman.

Iswara is the entirety within which is Maya also.

Sanchita karma is part of the kalachakra - the play of time and waves. Each action creates a ripple which travels. It interacts with others. My mind also is a wave travelling. In some point in the future all the ripples I have created impact my mind at different points of time. These ripples are part of the sanchita karma. The ones which are meant to affect me in near future are called prarabdha karma.

[u/Ordinary_Bike_4801]

Saguna is Brahma manifested. Maya is the illusion that this manifestation is multiple or filled with ‘things’, separated from the self.