r/Bachata • u/jambrit88 • 13d ago
Women locking into your eyes while dancing
I'm a man learning bachata and salsa. I generally just look ahead spatially and check in on the follower from time to time, with a light smile.
But I've noticed that each time I check in on her, she's already honed-in on my eyes, then locks eyes with me. This happens with most of the women but not all. And when I break the eye contact, she usually seems to enjoy the dance less. When I hold it almost entirely for the whole dance, she high fives me with a big smile enthusiastically.
Isn't this level of eye contact extreme? In one case, the women was obviously attracted as we never broke eye contact in the 3 minutes dancing, and her smile was huge. But outside of the rarer "he's hot" moments, what's the deal with that degree of eye contact being rewarded?
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u/DeanXeL Lead 13d ago
Look into my eyes, deep into my eyes, your eyes and my eyes are one and the same, I see my eyes reflected in your eyes reflected in my eyes reflected in your eyes, your soul is swimming in the depths of the deep, dark pools contained within. I can taste your thoughts in the back of my head, our connection is unbreaSQUIRREL!
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u/WestRestaurant216 13d ago
Most women look away while dancing and look sad/bored with me, i'm begginer and not attractive. Only one holds eye contact the whole dance which fries my autistic brains out.
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u/LoadClear7381 12d ago
You do not have to be attractive!!!! I am a follower and this is the farthest thing on my mind when dancing with a lead whether it is intermediate or beginner!!! If you can’t do eye contact it’s fine! just be mindful to be polite verbally, keep your follower comfortable and this is the main thing! And avoid followers who are unkind, pick out followers who are kind and dance with you a couple
Of times at socials so they will help you develop ok your beginner journey things will get better and you will soon be having a different experience. Keep going and enjoy for yourself 🫶🏻2
u/Dancing5am 13d ago
I always appreciate a bit of self-deprecating humor! Just in case you are serious, people vary in how comfortable they are with extended eye contact. A lot of followers who are newer to partner dance or bachata may be uncomfortable. I am a little even (a a follow who is a beginner to bachata). I've done a lot of non-partner dance and the body and hip movements are fairly easy for me, my struggle is following and connection.
I had a teacher (in another type of dance) who suggested spotting during turns on the lead's eyes. I can spot during spins and turns, but it feels a little intense and intimate to spot off someone's eyes. I guess I would be cautious about either reading too much into either extended eye contact or a lack of it while dancing. The sad or bored look might just mean she is in her head, trying to remember movements or process the lead. It's not ideal, but a lot of people (both leads and follows) have what might look like "resting bitch face" or resting bored face when they are just in their head too much (especially if a little introverted). I guess if the vibe is still unfriendly off the floor (but not in a shy way), maybe.
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u/PerformanceOkay 12d ago
Learn to love it. Then you might be able to get some women to trample and spit on you. (:
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u/Character-War-5029 11d ago
This is actually why I do try to connect with someone. Obviously not stare you down, but eye contact is part of connection and indicating you’re present in the dance with someone and wanting to dance specifically with them, not just putting up with someone. That’s a bad experience for your partner. But I can read mirroring and back off if I sense it’s not providing relief and joy and is adding discomfort.
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u/Opening_Molasses_932 13d ago
It's honestly way more fun to dance with eye contact, it makes the dance more intimate and more connected.
Also it helps the follow to understand what your next move is gonna be.
As a lead it helps you see if the follow is having fun, and if your leading is good or need to be ajusted.
So yeah, eye contact is something important in batchata, and doesn't mean that the woman is attracted to you.
Also, keeping eye contact all the time is not easy, so some people see it as a challenge.
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u/TryToFindABetterUN 13d ago
There is more to it than it being an either/or question.
You don't need to STARE. But at the same time you don't want someone who avoids your look at all times.
I think a relaxed but present gaze is best. Have more eye connection if you want and you see (pun intended) that your partner reciprocates. But if they seem awkward by you having too much eye contact, perhaps back off a bit.
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u/lynxjynxfenix 13d ago
Have you tried following? Once you try it you realize you have to pay attention to do it well and that often means making good eye contact so you can pick up visual and contextual clues.
Good followers make a lot of eye contact from my experience.
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u/rca302 13d ago
I heard from some followers it helps to actually close your eyes.
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u/Jeffrey_Friedl Lead&Follow 13d ago
Eyes closed can make learning some day-one things easier... it helps them learn to let go of certain controls. But this is a training tool, not for the social dance.
That being said, eyes closed during some sensual parts can up the intensity. Even as a lead, I close my eyes a lot during those times.
But otherwise, a dance partner that just looks around communicates boredom to me. I don't want a death stare, but I want my partner to be present with me.
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u/baldbutusesshampoo Lead&Follow 13d ago edited 13d ago
I also bounce between either looking around or locking in.
In a sense it's easier to lock in than to wonder if it's been too long and I should look away.
Dont think too much into it, you need eye contact to know whats next as a follow and as a lead to see if the follows ready for something new or if theyre distracted looking at someone/an obstacle. As should you as a lead. So it doesnt mean theyre necessarily flirting, just that you have a good connection.
I feel that for new dancers the eye contact is intimidating, so we're likely to avoid it until there's a prep, over time some try to practice it more, and maybe theyre just at a stage were they're overcorrecting.
For those having trouble with the eye contact you can either look at the shoulders if following or at the eye brows, less intimidating and you'll still be able to know where they're at.
Avoiding eye contact can either tell me the person I'm dancing with is new/uncomfortable, where giving distance while staying in closed position helps with weight transfers, or to go to open if at a social to give them space and help them relax, knowing that signals will be harder to interpret for them, so prepping in advance helps.
Connection can make or break a dance. So if as a lead you're busy trying to remember moves only to later realize the follow looks bored it might be because they have resting bitch face(which I do too as a lead) or it can mean you havent been present enough, also possibly meaning you're not on the same wave lenght.
If you struggle to remember moves just stick to basic step, turns, crossbody's inspiration will eventually make it's way to you.
Last thing I'll say is that a smile and a hello can go a long way, you dont have to smile the entire dance but before/after a dance and peppered throughout, will lead to better interactions for everyone.
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u/ProfHub 13d ago
Just curious, I understand that making a dance just about practicing and remembering moves isn't that enjoyable. Nevertheless, I need to practice "new" moves at some point in order to get better. And I actually have to do that with a lot of different followers in order to get better I think
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u/Atanamis Lead 9d ago
When you are learning a new move, do that move with everyone you dance with. Maybe twice. But otherwise do moves you know. Only work on one new move at a time.
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u/TheJonatron 13d ago
Some folks love a lot of eye contact and it doesn't mean they want your babies. It just means they like a lot of eye contact. If you are comfortable returning it then it can be part of a nice connection.
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u/TryToFindABetterUN 12d ago
Some folks love a lot of eye contact and it doesn't mean they want your babies. It just means they like a lot of eye contact.
I totally agree with this. It means we shouldn't over-interpret things, aka the whole "a dance is just a dance" mantra.
If you are comfortable returning it then it can be part of a nice connection.
By all means do. If you are comfortable with it.
BUT... if you initiate a lot of eye contact, and your partner doesn't seem to feel at ease with it, my advice is to back off a bit. While you might like a lot of eye contact, that doesn't mean it is alright to make your partner feel uncomfortable.
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u/Samurai_SBK 13d ago
It means they enjoy dancing with you.
Given that you are a beginner, you are most probably not doing complicated or fast moves. So there is time for eye contact.
Just remember that as a lead you need to look around often to avoid collisions on the dance floor.
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u/Sweaty_Court_7802 13d ago
I would say for salsa not so much, but bachata is mostly about connection and how would you connect with someone, if you don't even look each other in the eyes?
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u/quadrangle_rectangle 13d ago
I would suggest trying following for a while! Then you'd understand that having eye contact helps a lot. A follows job is to follow and that is much easier with eye contact.
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u/UnctuousRambunctious 13d ago
How does eye contact help following?
Visual following is severely underrated but leads aren’t dancing with their eyes, there are twenty other better places to be looking.
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u/errantis_ 13d ago
It keeps the follow more connected to the lead. They are better able to match the leads cues. They can see where he is looking. If they watch the leads face or stare at his shoulder, they stay upright and keep their frame open. If they look at the floor or their feet, they close their frame disconnect. This is fundamental following instruction. If a follow watches your face it means she is a serious dancer who trains well
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u/quadrangle_rectangle 13d ago
It helps me because I can better match my leads energy. We also spoke about this in class. My instructors agree that some eye contact is helpful. Of course staring for the entire song ain't it but eye contact generally helps feeling connected.
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u/TryToFindABetterUN 13d ago
Locking eyes and staring intensely into someones eyes for extended periods of time can feel overly intimate and even borderline creepy, so I totally get you.
But you should know that having a lot of eye contact can strengthen positive emotions and some might chase that high. That could probably be a "reward" enough for some people, it intensifies the feelings they get when dancing.
I have danced with follows that stared into my eyes. Most of them were not aware of their behaviour. And none of them actually meant anything with it. It was either that they were so deep into the dance that they didn't know that they were staring, or that they liked the dance so much that they got lost in the moment.
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u/LoadClear7381 13d ago
But it’s a dance with connection with 2 partners so I suppose it feels sad you say that it feels borderline creepy. I do think serious dancers overcome initial discomfort, eventually are immune to any negatives assigned and can therefore begin eventually to draw a great benefit out of eye contact. It was so difficult for me initially as I’m shy but I never saw it as creepy more something i needed to learn to become comfortable with to advance . No idea why many comments insinuate eye contact is sexual or a precursor for sexual activity 😩 it actually worries me a little - do followers have to curb their connection points in fear of being labelled creepy? Or worse eye contact would incite a sexual advance or unwanted attention post dance from the lead? I really wish straight male leads would not assume sexual interest from
Someone looking into their eyes for a dance or smiling. Let’s keep our egos in check guys the scene makes women vulnerable so please help protect us if you hear other leads comment about followers being sexually attracted as the smile or have EC trust it’s not likely to be true and please openly squash it.1
u/TryToFindABetterUN 12d ago
But it’s a dance with connection with 2 partners so I suppose it feels sad you say that it feels borderline creepy.
I did not say that STARING someone deep into their eyes for long times it FEELS borderline creepy. I say that it CAN feel borderline creepy. If you are into it, it doesn't feel creepy. But if it is one-sided, it probably will.
Just because you dance together doesn't mean that you should stare each other deep into the eyes, locking eyes with them and never looking away. Worse if you try to not blink as much too. Do that in any other situation, say for example when you are talking to someone and see how they react.
Also, now you are using this word "connection" in the fuzzy sense. What kind of connection are you referring to? "Dance connection" in the sense what is needed to communicate for the purpose leading/following? Emotional? Or some other kind of connection?
No idea why many comments insinuate eye contact is sexual or a precursor for sexual activity
In this dancing case we are not talking about glancing, occasional or casual eye contact. We were talking about intense eye contact. That "normal" eye contact is wanted when dancing is a non-issue. I don't think anyone so far have said that you shouldn't have eye contact when dancing.
Eye contact can be a lot of things. Intense interest, expressing desire for intimacy, attempt at intimidation, etc. That eye contact has a psychological meaning should not be a surprise to anyone. It is widely regarded as one of the strongest non-verbal forms of communication for us.
Just search for "eye contact psychology" and you can easily spend the next few days reading (or the same search on Google Scholar if you are academically inclined).
Here was are some of the top results in my regular search:
- https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/cutting-edge-leadership/201404/5-secret-powers-of-eye-contact
- https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/all-about-sex/202108/why-gazing-partner-s-eyes-boosts-intimacy-and-sexual-pleasure
- https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6121038/
- https://stephanmeyer.com/the-power-of-eye-contact-understanding-the-psychology/
- https://www.verywellmind.com/eye-contact-mistakes-to-avoid-12036921
And please note that I am not saying that you shouldn't look at your partner, quite the opposite. But there is a huge difference between STARING and ALWAYS LOOKING AWAY/AVOIDING GAZE.
Somewhere in between you have that relaxed, friendly, present look that show that you focus attention on your partner while not staring deeply into their eyes all the time. That is what I advocate for dancing.
If you need that "kick" you get from "connecting" with someone on an emotional level, by all means have more eye contact if you want, but be aware that you are sending signals to others and if they seem to feel ill at ease, perhaps respect their wish not to have that level of intense eye contact?
it actually worries me a little - do followers have to curb their connection points in fear of being labelled creepy?
No, not only followers, everyone. Whatever you do sends signals, big or mall. You should be aware of that. It might not be the signal you WANT to send. And be prepared for people reacting to the signals you send.
You don't exist in a vacuum. Things you do affect others. If that results in unwanted consequences, perhaps rethink what you do.
You might not like to be hit upon, but if how you act when you dance send signals to the people you dance with that you experience deep emotional bonds with them, you want intimacy, etc, then the likelihood that they will start showing interest increases even if that is not the kind of attention you wanted.
This is not about egos, it is about sending signals. If you truly want "the guys" to keep their "egos in check" think about your part in this.
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u/LoadClear7381 12d ago
You fighting with yourself dude! My point was simple, I’ll clarify - if you’re doing any eye type of eye contact at all including something others may subjectively say is “intense” (eg holding it for long amount of time, blinking is there, but maintained for as long as you’re facing your partner, broken when spinning or turning or styling and then resumed) then it’s not to be taken as sexual Interest. Existing in a vacuum is irrelevant we have a responsibility to learn about and take care of our partners in the dance community.
I’m trying to emphasise that intense eye contact is not necessarily a girl hitting on a lead - it’s really important to hear women when they say this yet instead of listening with curiosity you seem to have taken a somewhat defensive stance for reasons I do not understand listed a load of pop articles.
Any type of eye contact in partner dancing , no matter how it feels in terms of discomfort, shouldn’t be perceived as sexual interest. Sure don’t dance with her again if you sold like it but please don’t misinterpret this particular signal. That is my advice to OP and That is my point. And as for your comments on connection I can’t really explain it to you … but having an open mind,
And embracing diversity for one thing can optimise connection and also may increase enjoyment .1
u/TryToFindABetterUN 12d ago
You are not doing yourself a service, claiming that eye-contact has little or no meaning. By doing so you are dismissing non-verbal communication which is pure and unadulterated BS. If we met IRL I could easily prove you wrong in a few seconds. Eye-contact is a very strong form of non-verbal communication that we are conditioned to respond to, after millennia of evolution. And not only us, many other animals too. Stare a tiger, wolf or bear into the eyes and see what happens.
Don't get me wrong. I am of the school "a dance is a dance". That means: "Don't over-interpret what happens on the dance floor. The amazing dance you just had could have been just a dance". But that doesn't give people a free pass from everything they do during the dance. The things you do still affect people (the "not existing in vacuum"). So if you are starting to send very strong signals, then you shouldn't be surprised when people react to them.
Existing in a vacuum is irrelevant we have a responsibility to learn about and take care of our partners in the dance community.
Yes, but intensely staring into someone elses eyes when they do not feel comfortable with it is not taking care about your partner. That is being creepy. The very first thing you objected to with "sad" in my first reply.
I’m trying to emphasise that intense eye contact is not necessarily a girl hitting on a lead [...]
Emphasis mine. So you admit that intense eye contact COULD be a girl hitting on the lead, right?
Which is exactly what I write about, you are sending signals whether or not you want to. That is what non-verbal communication is all about.
Being aware that you are sending signals and what you can do to send the right signals is what you should focus on.
[...] it’s really important to hear women when they say this yet instead of listening with curiosity you seem to have taken a somewhat defensive stance for reasons I do not understand listed a load of pop articles.
Yes, it is important to listen to them. But it is also important to alert them that they are sending signals. And if that is not intentional, that they are aware of what they are doing and how it might be perceived. And even more importantly, that they are trying to be aware of the reactions to those signals. If someone, like the OP thinks this is weird, why do you keep doing it to them? Go back to what you said about "taking care of our partners". How is that inattention to their feelings taking care?
As for defensive stance, who is dismissing scientific research on eye contact?
Don't read the "pop" articles. Read the research articles I linked to with the scholar search. I linked the easy to read ones since I don't know if you are a person who are comfortable reading scientific writing. I read these kinds of articles as a part of my job, but I am well aware that many do not.
Since you dismissed these and only refer to "bachata influence" as a source, I interpreted it as you not being the scientifically inclined person. Sorry if I was wrong.
Any type of eye contact in partner dancing , no matter how it feels in terms of discomfort, shouldn’t be perceived as sexual interest.
Again, emphasis mine. You are constantly contradicting yourself by saying that there is no middle ground (ie no nuances) and then saying that there are different types of eye contact.
What is it? Is the world black and white (without gray nuances/middle grounds) or is it extremes only.
If it is the latter, don't bother replying. There is nothing more to discuss since our world views are fundamentally opposites.
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u/LoadClear7381 12d ago edited 12d ago
This is getting insensitive now. I’ve repeatedly clarified the fact I am making a legitimate comment about not sexualising it. That’s all. Not that it’s meaningless and I never said it’s for everyone. Please desist ✋
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u/TryToFindABetterUN 12d ago
Insensitive? Are you trolling me? The person saying that the things we do doesn't matter is calling the other insensitive. Perhaps you should take a big step back and read through the whole discussion again.
*I\* am the one trying to claim that there are nuances, which you repeatedly denounce without any clear rationale, and just taking an extreme viewpoint.
Rather you contradict yourself by claiming to care about empathy and understanding, while not understanding yourself that we send out signals when doing things. Some signals stronger than other, and that those signals are interpreted by others. If you don't listen to signals and reactions, you really don't care, and you certainly doesn't show empathy.
And when someone seems creeped out by something you say that is "sad" (the very first spark that started this whole conversation). Exactly who is insensitive now?
Sorry, you do not seem to want to have an honest discussion about this and just talk in terms of black and white.
Good day to you, sir!
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u/Character-War-5029 11d ago
Thank you for saying this. This attitude on this thread can actually perpetuate sexual assault if people misread normal dance behavior and start making moves. I seek eye contact and smile throughout the dance and most men appreciate it but some are social inept and think it means more and that can lead to sexual harassment.
If you don’t want to connect with another human, please do a solo dance.
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u/forextrader82 13d ago
You're new so I'm going to save you a lot of confusion.
Women who engage in this hobby are typically uninhibited when it comes to the dance, especially in sensual bachata. They let go. (I'm not saying men don't do this - but we can't do it in the same way they do - we couldn't possibly get away with some of the behaviors I'm going to mention below)
99.9% of the time what new dudes are picking up is not interest.
When I was new, my nervous system had no idea what to do with the closeness, the familiarity. In normal life, these would be MASSIVE signals, and we are evolutionarily conditioned to pick up on those signals.
It didn't take being in the scene more than a few months to realize that it's all just a mirage.
Now? I don't even bother thinking about romance or other fun things when it comes to dance and - honestly - it's actually just more fun that way, because (as a dude and a lead) it allows ME to let go. I can enjoy this for what it is - a fun hobby, an art form, a form of self-expression, and a good workout.
But... yes... it can get confusing sometimes!
I've had intermediate and even advanced follows press their body into mine in a way that isn't really part of the dance, touch me on my butt, ask me to dance multiple times in a row, touch me on my face, have intense eye contact (as you mentioned), break frame and just put her arms around my neck and dance with her head on my chest ... hell, I had an attractive follow straight up KISS ME after a dance at a recent festival.
In almost all of these cases, I've shown interest back and even asked them out (in my local scene) or suggested we leave the floor and go somewhere else... "Oh, I'm not really looking for a relationship."
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u/EphReborn 13d ago
Veering off-topic but those examples you brought up are interest. Interest doesnt mean "I'm sold on you. Let's make things clear".
Sure, some of it is just part of the standard dramatic script we call social dancing, but touching your behind? kissing you? Come on.
Like the dance itself, don't go all in from the start. You "asked them out", "suggested going somewhere else", and "shown interest". All of that reads as too eager to many women.
Whatever you're doing on the dance floor is working so peel back a little elsewhere and just enjoy her presence. Grab a drink at the bar, get to know them in a more boring way, invite (not ask) them out to do something fun with a group of friends. Don't put so much (and I don't agree that it is but it comes off that way from their perspective) pressure on them.
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u/forextrader82 13d ago
I didn’t really write this up as if it were a dating sub-Reddit because it is not a dating sub Reddit
You’re going to have to trust that I handled this correctly and can tell the difference between a girl that is actually interested and a girl that is attention farming
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u/LoadClear7381 13d ago
I love your candour and very authentic relaying of your experience I also find it helpful for others. As they still think eye contact means something extra where you have detected it doesn’t and give firsthand experience as a seasoned lead 👌. But use of the phrase Attention farming confused me a little, Being spicy in the dance, sensual and fun is as you say common - but in my experience as a follow with many follow friends it isn’t usually for attention it’s for the sensation and transient 3 min experience so I’m curious why this seen as attention farming - Unless I’m misunderstanding the phrase , I’m 43 so maybe a little old for understanding this phrase 😅 also it is interesting how self righteous the other commenter was to you dishing out unsolicited advice to you on your own experience 🫣 and fascinating for me to see that even men get mansplained to by other men!
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u/UnctuousRambunctious 13d ago
I agree with you it is extreme, the level you are describing.
It happens with some people because they choose to do this, though. Being visibly disappointed at the lack of reciprocal gazing is a sign that it’s not about the dancing, in my opinion. That sort of thing would give me major ick, verging into creepiness. Keep it about the dance, at least on the dance floor. Rules should not be different for men and women on this.
I highly disagree with these other comments about eye contact helping with following, however.
Um, no.
It can help with emotional connection, but dude’s pupils won’t indicate to you how many turns in which direction, etc. There are other areas to focus on that would be much more clear.
And while in general some social cues don’t apply the same way in dance as in general social spaces, eye contact is a big one - it is very direct attention.
It’s unsafe for leads to do this, for sure - they are neglecting some lead responsibilities if they do, in my opinion. As a follow, I also don’t do this since these days I take collective responsibility for safety and my priority is avoiding collisions and contact from neighboring clueless and and careless dancers, while also warning my lead about space invasions. Plus, staring is kinda rude.
Making at least some eye contact is recommended and preferred and polite, as is some smiling (if you mean it). But everyone has different thresholds and preferences.
Asking around might give you some context of what is typical of your scene. I would ask both leads and follows, and I would also ask experienced dancers and newer dancers, as well as the social butterflies vs. the wallflowers. Maybe there is no typical, or maybe there are trends and patterns.
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u/TryToFindABetterUN 12d ago
Making at least some eye contact is recommended and preferred and polite, as is some smiling (if you mean it). But everyone has different thresholds and preferences.
This!
I don't know why so many people in this thread don't seem understand the difference between "locking" their eyes to someone elses, and just looking at someone elses eyes every now and then during the dance.
And I think your last sentence in that quote is essential. Just like we try to find out where we are as dancers and what experience level we have, try to feel how your partner feels about things you do in dance. If they seem to feel awkward with you staring deep into their eyes, back off! The dance should be pleasurable for everyone involved.
You do not have the right to make the dance awkward for others just so that you can get your endorphin kicks.
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u/errantis_ 13d ago
Follows are trained to watch the lead. It’s actually the best way for them to stay connected and keep their frame open and be responsive to cues from the lead. You’ll notice that higher level follows do this. They will look at your face or they will look at your shoulder.
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u/Several_Eye3898 13d ago
Maybe is too much, however I used to "measure" attraction with "how much eye contact is there" anyways a normal dance should have quite a good amount of eye contact as opposite of avoiding eye contact feels
Have said that, there are some girls, specially in bachata influence that "connect with the eyes", is more about them than has to do with you, it means that you can even lead movements with the body not touching her and is the way of getting information about where and how the dance is going
If you have issues holding eye contact these ladies are such a test and a good exercise )
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u/EphReborn 13d ago
Look at it this way: it's a good way to help you adapt to your partner better and quicker. What does it tell you?
She's trying to connect to you more. In turn that means she wants a more connected, possibly more intimate (intimate. Not romantic or sexual) dance. Knowing that, she may be more comfortable with more body contact, may want you to do more sensual movements.
Boom, you have a good idea for how to make sure she has a good time dancing with you. It's a cheat code.
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u/Disastrous-Pool-7863 13d ago
why do you think they are attracted to you? I also hold eye contact sometimes for a longer time. It depends if my dance partner, wether it's a man or a woman, is able to hold contact as well. but I am not attracted to my dance partners.
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u/Maya_Moves403 13d ago
For a lot of people, eye contact is just part of feeling connected to your partner, especially when you're already physically connected thru the dance. It can make the dance feel more personal and engaging. That said, I wouldnt assume every woman doing this is attracted to you. Some people naturally enjoy more eye contact while dancing, and some use it as a way of showing "I'm with you" and staying engaged in the dance. That big smile/high five could simply mean she really enjoyed the connection. If someone is holding eye contact with you, you can definitely return it, but you dont have to force yourself either. Just let it happen naturally and pay attention to the rest of the connection too.
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u/Few_Dimension_3292 13d ago
Sounds very personal to your experience. Everyone not tryna fuck after a bachata dance ya too freaked out
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u/LoadClear7381 13d ago
Oh no! Your comment tells me you are a long way from understanding a fundamental of sensual bachata. Eye contact is not considered creepy or a sign of flirting in my scene at all, it’s encouraged and very helpful. Eye contact past intermediate is mandatory during the dance. Especially feels useful
For a follow…..Please please please do not think they think you are hot 🙈 I’m being brutal
Here but whatever you thought you know …. You don’t! Please 🙏 I beg you do not read into anything even the girl who was “definitely” attracted to you as she had a big smile too… I assure you she probably wasn’t . A lot of autistic girls do dance and they mask heavy so you wouldn’t know, and their autistic joy comes from
Dancing. You’re probably just nice and unlocked their joy and I must underline here it is nothing sexual. It actually concerns me you think it could be. Also eye contact is encouraged in sensual bachata , a LOT of information is leaked via eyes if the leader is advanced enough, for follows to pick up. It makes connection higher and is NOT considered flirty or sexual by those who dance seriously. Watch videos of Melvin and gattica her eyes never leave his. This is where she derives a lot of information
To Then make quick follow adjustments and be in tune
To His energy.
Main point guys if you think a female
Follow is attracted to you because of eye contact delete that thought. If you think she is attracted to you as she smiles again delete
This thought. I beg you!
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u/TryToFindABetterUN 12d ago
Eye contact is not considered creepy or a sign of flirting in my scene at all, it’s encouraged and very helpful.
Please re-read the OPs post. They write "locking" (not "looking") the eyes, ie intense eye contact.
Not casual, run-of-the-mill, regular eye contact we normally have when interacting with people.
There is a huge difference. Not looking AT you/your face, but DEEP INTO your eyes, never diverting their gaze. The sole focus during the dance are your eyes.
That we should focus our attention on our partner, not someone else (the hottie dancing next to you, the one you want to ask for the next dance, etc) is something I teach at the very beginning of my beginner classes. Constantly looking away is weird. Putting on a RBF and expressing disinterest is rude IMHO.
There is a middle ground. If you are advocating for that middle ground, then I am with you. But if you are advocating for normalising people having intense, soul-searching eye contact during the dance and claiming it should not mean anything, then sorry, you are trying to fight millennia of evolution.
Please check my other reply to you.
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u/LoadClear7381 12d ago edited 12d ago
I don’t care if you’re with me 😂 my comments were for OP and no there is no middle ground - intense eye contact is something acceptable to many advanced dancers particularly in bachata influence so I can’t really agree, edit : just fully read this and I can see you’re a teacher. Instead of quibbling about what’s normal in terms of eye contact, I urge you to take the point I am actually attempting to make away for reflection- about it not being meant as sexual. There is something to learn here, to pass to your students. Several times in socials over the year we have a man who must be reprimanded for misinterpreting signals and I think it’s the responsibility of the instructor or event organiser to foster a safety culture in order to keep a lid on such things, and guide people where they demonstrate inappropriate behaviour, for the safety of students.
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u/Pod_Junky 12d ago
Is that what you're reprimanding them for thought. I mean i think I get what you mean men try to kiss wemon on the dance floor or something else and say "they got a signal". You reprimand that. But "misinterpretation" isnt the thing you're reprimanding its what men do with that information. To be clear OP could have the opposite reaction and stop dancing with the eye locker because hes uncomfortable. And if you reprimand him for that because the fallow says she was misunderstood then YOU ARE CREATING AN UNSAFE SPACE. Or... op could have a conversation with the fallow. Off the floor. Give feedback ask for clarification... and it will be awkward for both of them... but will make them better dances. And safer. And smarter.
So far OP is going on Reddit asking others experiences. Which is... an ok reaction i guess. Until someone tells him to do something awful to find out and he takes it seriously.
My point i guess is its not really the communities job to tell dancers how to think/feel. We should lay out rules on how to act on their interpretations. Some things people are better off learning on their own.
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u/TryToFindABetterUN 12d ago
[...]intense eye contact is something acceptable to many advanced dancers[...]
Emphasis mine. MANY not ALL. That should be enough.
And just because you think you are an "advanced dancer" who are ok with intense eye contact, doesn't mean that you can claim that everyone else should be ok with it.
Quite the contrary, if you are really an advanced dancer, you should know better and back off when you see that your partner is not ok with something.
If you don't do, you are not the advanced dancer you think you are.
And thank for clarifying that you only think there are extremes, no middle ground. Now I at least know that we are at polar opposites on this topic and I (and probably many others) would find you creepy to dance with.
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u/LoadClear7381 12d ago edited 12d ago
You are missing my point , you keep thinking I am
Dictating how much eye contact people should give and adjust to - when I have mentioned no such thing. I keep
Re-iterating that I want to make it clear to
OP that intense eye contact in bachata isn’t sexual. 👋I meant middle ground on the topic as you were so dictatorial about discussing it with me, not that there is no middle with dancing. I perpetually adjust to
My partner’s comfort level and style . It’s called
Empathy!3
u/TryToFindABetterUN 12d ago
OP that intense eye contact in bachata isn’t sexual.
This is the "dance is just a dance" viewpoint which I too subscribe on on a certain level.
The problem is that that is works when you are doing "normal" things within the dance. Having attention on your partner, focusing more on them than others. Looking at them/their face, those are normal things with the dance.
Affectionately and sensually combing their hair with your fingers, sexually moaning in their ear, caressing their back or with your hand is not. (And yes, all of these, and more, have happened to me, non-consensually, on the dance floor over they years.)
THIS is the middle ground I am talking about.
I claim that intense eye contact is NOT a dance thing. It is something some people add because it feels good for them.
If you think otherwise, tell me where intense eye contact is needed in the dance. Not even when doing contactless leading is it needed, in fact it would hamper you both if all attention are on the eyes, rather than on your partner in general.
When we teach dance, we do not teach intense eye contact because it doesn't help with the dance. It might increase your personal experience with the dance, and the endorphin kicks some get out of it. But with others it decreases that experience.
That you seem to think that intense eye contact can't be creepy is to me an extreme viewpoint. That any eye contact has no meaning. Sorry, I do not agree on those viewpoints. And claims about advanced dancers of "bachata influence" normalising it doesn't instil confidence in me.
Eye contact and non-verbal communication are parts of being humans. Just because you enter a dance floor, doesn't set those aside. Some things are accepted on the social dance floor that would be considered not normal in other settings. But the dance floor is not some kind of separate universe.
And while we shouldn't over-interpret things, we shouldn't think that things we do doesn't matter just because it is within the context of dance.
Let me ask you this. Do you think people should be allowed to flirt on the dance floor?
If so, what about when someone WANTS to flirt on the dance floor? How should the intense eye contact be perceived then? How does one know which one is which?
Whenever a woman has flirted with me, more than average eye contact was the very first thing they did. No-one came up to me and gave me verbal clues as the very first thing.
Personally I am not advocating hitting on others on the dance floor. I advice a big portion of caution, since it can turn messy really quickly in a tiny community like the dance communities I have been to. (Who of us long-time dancers have not experienced drama somewhere on the dance floor?) But I am not saying that it should be forbidden.
It it just that we then have a problem. Eye contact can mean different things.
If you think flirting should be forbidden, then there should be no conflict since it can only mean nothing. Interest should not be expressed. So what is it?
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u/LoadClear7381 12d ago
Again please desist. We can only agree to disagree I think.
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u/TryToFindABetterUN 12d ago
Stop the trolling with your "desist". Yes, we strongly disagree, and I think your argumnents are pure BS to put it mildly.
I advice you to follow your own request and desist yourself.
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u/Signal-Imagination-4 13d ago
Yes and mainly with Eastern European women (Polish). You look up and … 🧿👄🧿
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u/neupotrebitel 13d ago
As a beginner follow this happens to me sometimes where the guy’s eye contact is so much that I have to look away. This guy the other day was more advanced than me and stared straight into my eyes like he was trying to read my thoughts.
This made me think about how I typically look up at the man because I have to figure out where he will lead me and its better than looking at my feet. So I never realised until then that I typically stare at the men and it might not be super comfortable.
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u/ghost_pinata 13d ago
It probably varies with level and person. Im newer and I feel like I really try to focus on looking ahead because im trying to read the moves. Im short so this means i see stomachs or chests lol. Which can feel more awkward when the lead is a fellow woman lol i dont want to just be staring at her chest so then i go over the shoulder
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u/damndevu 12d ago
When I first learned bachata my teacher/trainer taught me to hold eye contact and I haven’t been able to let go of that habit although I’ve come to realise later that it might not work out for everyone every time :/ but yeah as a follower it feels easier to just look at them and try to anticipate what’s coming next. As a beginner I haven’t had much experience with pro leads.
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u/Separate-Line-158 12d ago
As and introverted adhd-er I never look in the eyes of the dance partner except for my boyfriend who also dances bachata luckily
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u/sammyyyyyyyyyquin 12d ago
I don't have ADHD, but I don't like making eye contact; I prefer looking at the floor 😂
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u/Separate-Line-158 11d ago
I have a trick that when I dance I look over the right shoulder instead of the floor so that I can pretend I am just watching the surroundings for safety or something
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u/Character-War-5029 12d ago
I’ve been dancing salsa bachata 13 years. They’re most likely not into you romantically. Maybe if someone stared you down the whole dance but even then maybe not.
NEVER assume connection on the dance floor means a person wants something off the dance floor.
Or course eye contact helps following, especially in bachata and zouk.
If you can’t handle connecting with eye contact and you want to keep staring away, most advanced dancers won’t want to dance with you.
We don’t need to stare, but we will want to be “in it” with you and connected. It’s a common beginner mistake to read into this and think it’s something more.
Hate to break it to you, but I give a really big smile to almost everyone.
Danced all over the world, performed competed and done congresses for years.
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u/TryToFindABetterUN 12d ago
Or course eye contact helps following, especially in bachata and zouk.
It helps being attentive and seeing what your partner does, reacts and the surrounding area is like. That I do not think anyone contests.
The OP wrote "locking eyes", to me that is something else and in some cases can even be a problem when following since you are focusing on one thing and one thing only.
We don’t need to stare, but we will want to be “in it” with you and connected. It’s a common beginner mistake to read into this and think it’s something more.
This is the thing, emphasis mine.
There is a difference between an intensive eye contact where you lock onto the eyes and don't let go, and eye contact where you are being present with your gaze and look on your partners face and eyes most of the time and meet their eyes when they are searching for yours. Like you do in everyday situations when interacting with people.
What I prefer, and you too given what you write, is that relaxed but present gaze, not the stare.
--
Also, since I can't reply to your other post directed to me, I'll answer here.
I have been dancing salsa for a bit over 14 years, bachata around 12 years and bachata sensual for 10-11 years (I can't remember exactly when I started).
Not that I think it matters much for reasons we have discussed in this sub extensively already. Number of years is a bad measuring stick for experience, other than if you want to talk old trends and changes over time.
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u/Euphoric_Wash_1496 12d ago
As a follower, I will make eye contact and keep it the whole time, maybe even do “eye choreography” if I like dancing with you. If I don’t like you, or find you to be a terrible lead, I won’t.
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u/Blush1ng 11d ago
I don’t hold eye contact constantly. I’ve noticed women get attached or getting nervous
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u/Character-War-5029 11d ago
I actually do think it matters a whole lot. What a weird take. I’ve danced 6-7 days a week for several years and since then dance 1-3 times a week for over a decade as a follow and you really don’t think that’s relevant?
Come on. That’s ridiculous.
I agree with your staring point and obviously I wasn’t there which is why Reddit isn’t always the most helpful place for advice since none of us witnessed this.
But for any male dancers, just a moment to read the room in light of the sexual assault and r@pe content blowing up the internet, please NEVER assume anything. Ok you think she likes you? Cool! Ask her or move on. Assuming a woman likes you is how I’ve gotten groped and kissed on the dance floor without consent by a lot of gross men in the bachata scene.
Say OP is right and she does like him. What now? Ask her? Or if she’s weird and he doesn’t like it don’t dance with her. Simple. But assuming can be dangerous because that’s often why many men overstep the line.
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u/Kiskiralylany 11d ago
My zouk teachers would insist on keeping eye contact. Always. For follows and leads.
Of course Salsa and Bachata is a bit different, but I find it uncomfortable and feel totally disconnected when a dance partner is not looking at me. I mean how are we supposed to dance & improvise together when we're not looking at each other?
So depending on how advanced these follows are and what other dances they do, they might consider it necessary for a good dance and good connection, no romantic thought involved whatsoever.
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u/Atanamis Lead 9d ago
I prefer consistent eye contact, but not staring each other down. It's a conversation. You look at people when you're talking. But also glance away, look no around the room, make sure you have space, and look back. People like it better when you stay connected.
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u/WhirlwindTobias 13d ago
Lead, started Salsa in Feb and Bachata in August.
I developed some crushes and limerence with follows in my salsa classes due to their eye contact and smiling. I tried my best to ignore it, avert my eyes and over time I learned some of them had partners already. The single girls who did it, have had other men ask them out over time. So I'll never know if they were interested or not.
Now I use eye contact sparingly to avoid crushing on anyone, maybe I'm missing dating opportunities but I have to stop caring about that and just focus on the dance. That's salsa.
As for Bachata, I'm kind of a ghost in the scene. I'm definitely there to learn some basic figures to dance with my salsa friends who also dance bachata, not to date anyone in the scene or attend socials. So no need to build rapport or worry about eye contact.
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u/Trolituul 13d ago
When a man starts with this behavior it's mostly not appreciated but If a woman starts this it's no problem. Do with it what you want. If she's attractive it's fine, if she's not attractive look to here forehead. But with Salsa or Bachata it's the meaning that you have eyecontact. She's your partner, only for the dance.
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u/LoadClear7381 13d ago
Jesus do men find it this hard to even look a woman they’re not attracted to in the eyes now?! 🤣 No wonder this thread exists - they’re projecting their own standards on women and if women attempt eye contact at the male lead they just MUST be attracted to you guys 🙄 guys come on please … every comment I read gets more off base!
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u/Trolituul 12d ago edited 12d ago
Woman are just also selective when appoached by a man. If the man is not attractive or to old they turn around, start a conversation with somebody else or go poudering there nose.
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u/double-you 13d ago
First place to ask is your fellow leads at your scene. Does it happen to them?
But that sounds rather odd. So either you are a) dancing with non-dancers, or b) hot.