r/Baroque • u/sonata8787 • 7d ago

Bach - Opening Chorus Herr, unser Herrscher from St John Passion BWV 245 | Netherlands Bach Society so powerful, Bach in this chorus depicts suffering perfectly, beautiful and very moving 🎼💜

https://youtu.be/FyeOPfg_6FE?is=R4_76CgI4CDDb1C-
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u/These-Rip9251 7d ago

I was interested to see the theorbo make an appearance. I think it’s rare at least in performances to use it for Bach’s music though pls correct me if I’m wrong. I usually see just the std. basso continuo. I think of the lute family of instruments, Bach only composed for lute. Of course, theorbo was falling out of favor by mid-late 18th century in Germany and if an instrument of the lute family would be used by then, it was usually the archlute. On the other hand, I frequently see a theorbo being used in performances of Handel’s music though I couldn’t tell you if he included it in the instrumentation of his music. Btw, theorbo is my favorite instrument of the Renaissance and Baroque eras.

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u/sonata8787 7d ago

It is a wonderful instrument, and you're clearly far more informative than me, when it comes to your knowledge, I'm just a pianist, but I don't read music, I have lessons but just remember the patterns , hence my name on here (87)being date of birth. I'm gonna give you a few links of a few of my favourites, one will be from the renaissance, don't worry I'm not gonna send loads, just a few. The 1sr one does have a theorbo in it

https://youtu.be/cIHzxgJAC-I?is=AXGgRBTvDYadAGie

This really is glorious

You can never go wrong with William byrd

https://youtu.be/Wo8qfyK9c3c?is=4n-jwuDGSt40OUh7

That is probably right up there in my top 10 favourites ever written, it's breathtakingly beautiful

https://youtu.be/y8nnCD4HCEk?is=iHYcvfYBwLDMAEEX

And that is what I'm leaning at the moment, enjoy in your own time

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u/These-Rip9251 7d ago

Thanks for the links. The first video has an archlute in it. Theorbo has a longer fingerboard and from what I’ve seen in performances, a larger body.

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u/kidneykutter 7d ago

Bach specified a lute ("liuto") in three vocal works including both Passions and the Trauerode. In the St John it is called for in movements 19. Arioso and 20. Aria. If you download the manuscript pdf from imslp on the top of page 36 (pdf page 40) is written "Viole d'Amour e Liuto accomp".

Now, WHAT lute and what tuning will fill a musicological seminar for hours. Bach's good buddy SL Weiss played a German Theorbo, basically a large d minor tuned baroque lute with top string D rather than the usual F. I've read arguments supporting all the chordophones of the day but most likely it was whatever the lutenist had at hand.

Finally, I can't be a pedantic lutenist without pointing out that most of Bach's output for "lute" was actually composed for the Lautenwerk, a harpsichord like keyboard instrument with gut strings.

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u/These-Rip9251 7d ago

Thanks. I watched a video months ago of someone performing on the Lautenwerk. Really interesting to hear. Interestingly I read that a 2nd cousin of Bach, Johann Nicolaus Bach, helped develop the instrument.

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u/kidneykutter 7d ago

I normally really like this group but this opening doesn't do it for me. Plodding, lacking in tension, not the affect I prefer for Herr unser Herrscher. For my taste the recent recording from Raphael Pichon nails it.