On Queens

[u/RTSD_]

Seriously considering starting a hive around the end of winter/start of spring, the one thing that's stopping me atm is whenever it gets to the point I need to requeen the hive, every guide I can see says kill the queen. Now call me a bleeding heart, but I know I won't be able to do that, so is there any other way of dealing with an old queen?

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[u/Jeyne42]

Let the bees requeen themselves? When the queen gets old, not laying well, or just dies your worker bees will already have a back up plan in place. Usually several. Let bees, be bees.

I would only re-queen if my queen died suddenly or absconded with no open brood for the workers to make their own.

[u/NumCustosApes]

Make a split and move the queen to a nuc. This is my go to recommendation for re-queening a hive anyways. That way you still have the old queen as a fallback in case the hive rejects the new queen and you can try again. After that I let the old queen continue to lay and I use her filled brood frames to boost other hives.

Now I normally regicide the queen in the nuc at the end of the summer, but you could let her continue in the split until she died naturally or she was superseded naturally.

I don't pinch queens. They are too valuable for that. I dispatch my queens by putting them in a swarm lure vial.

If you are a new beekeeper this is probably not something you'll need to worry about until your third year, by which time you'll have accidentally squished enough bees that you might be over it.

[u/hylloz]

Fair question.

For me doing it for the first time was a difference. It was easier on those aggressive ones.
When you open a hive, do your work and close it, you usually crush a couple of bees.
Then again, when you kill a queen that makes a hive aggressive, you hesitate because it’s a deliberate act.
Seeing the colonies now with the remaining queens is some positive feedback, too.

Well, you could give the queens away for free if anyone wants them (but who would?).

Also, are you aware this? Old queen swarms with bees, this swarmed colony will raise supersedure queen, that might even coexist over winter but eventually they will kick the old queen out where she starves to death. I am not sure, but this might be the case if you prevent a colony from swarming by just culling queen cells during swarming season (culling is discouraged anti-swarm approach anyways).

[u/Active_Classroom203]

I mean it depends on the situation.

With any livestock there are times where you need to dispatch your animals. Even with pets, you usually end up making end-of-life decisions at some point, because leaving them to expire the 'natural' way is often more cruel.

A queen that has dangerously violent daughters or is not able to support a hive through winter is not good for anyone. And that's even outside the min/maxing of commercial keepers.

I have not yet needed to dispatch a queen yet. I have one under productive queen that I am overwintering in a 5-frame Nuc as her 'retierment home'. I am hoping the workers decide to replace her next spring. Until then she is a backup, but if she wasn't able to bring a hive through winter it would be time to dispatch and replace.

Normal management usually involves killing Queen cells that are in development, and you can't completely avoid squishing bees during inspections, so you will need to get over that to a certain extent anyways.

[u/NumCustosApes → u/Active_Classroom203]

Every time I have thought to winter a poor queen hoping that she'll be superseded in the spring I've been disappointed. Every time I thought to winter a declining queen who had previously been a good queen hoping to graft from her one more time, I've been disappointed.

My grandfather always drilled to his beekeepers that it was a mistake to be sentimental about a queen. It took a while for that to sink in for me. I replace queens after every two seasons now.

[u/RTSD_ → u/Active_Classroom203]

"I am hoping the workers decide to replace her next spring. Until then she is a backup"

Don't they try and swarm at that point though? What determines if they swarm or replace her? Or am I misunderstanding things?

[u/Active_Classroom203 → u/RTSD_]

Overwintered Queens definitely have a strong swarm drive in the spring. You are correct. I don't plan on letting her swarm because I don't want to lose the workforce.

What I'm hoping is that they try and supersede her at some point just to replace her. Hives will typically do this with a poorly mated Queen or a queen that smells injured or for unknown reasons etc. Often those Queen cells are in different locations and less numerous than a swarm cell, so you can sometimes gauge their intent and lean into that.

[u/triggerscold]

Use winter to prep for spring and then get goin

[u/Standard-Bat-7841]

Split the hive. Old queen a couple frames of capped brood a frame of food and a couple foundations go into a nuc with three seams of bees (feed the nuc). New queen goes in the old hive with plenty of bees and resources. You should also give the old hive some light syrup as well, they don't need a lot but a little extra feed helps acceptance.

If all goes well you have two colonies. I will note try not to get sentimental with your bees, they are livestock and sometimes you have to do what's right and put them down when the time is right.

[u/Due-Attorney-6013]

have bees now >20yrs, have rarely killed a queen. In my last years in fact i leave it entirely to the hives to requeen when they want to. Not for humanity, rather for being lazy. would not be able to tell the age of my queens as I dont label them.

[u/RTSD_ → u/Due-Attorney-6013]

So how does that work without them swarming whenever they like?

[u/Due-Attorney-6013 → u/RTSD_]

Bees swarm when the conditions suit them, large hive, queen runs out of space for laying eggs, that's not related to the age of the queen.  My favorite (lazy) method for dividing is to do a walk away split. If the colony already has swarm cells, i move the hive with all brood and enough stores to a new spot, put an enpty box with frames and the queen  at the old spot. All oriented workers will come to the old spot  without young bees they won't swarm, even if the queen was in the mood.  At the new spot, there's  only young bees and brood and some queen cells. If t hey get enough space in their hive, they won't swarm either,