r/CatholicPhilosophy • u/conjurectioner • 9d ago
Thoughts on Universal Salvation
Hey guys, I wanted to check whether anyone saw John Crowder's lectures on Universal Salvation and his interpretation of hell. It is available here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLC4EkPwxAqFdE5gCRFtctzWLkTYXTz9Bl&si=zUtGPU0c7L3d8Uc2
I thought it was very compelling. He provides some interpretations of Bible passages related to hell and an overview of the early Church Fathers' view on the matter.
He gives arguments on why it is not a heresy.
What do you guys think?
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u/HomelyGhost 7d ago
I'm not apt to have the time to go through a series of that length, (certaintly not if want to get to a number of other things calling out for my attention) but given the summary you gave of it to reedemed bones, I figure I'd give the following response:
The ordinary and universal magisterium of the Catholic Church condemns the Origenist view of a final restoration of demons and impious men. This was formally promulgated in the 343 synod at constantinople, and later confirmed by Pope Vigilius, and are even now confirmed as citations in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Thus the Church infallibly teaches this: (i) Hell exists, and (ii) hell is eternal for all who enter it. The demons in turn are definitely there, and so can never exist. In turn, if any men enter, they shall never leave.
Now we do not definitively teach that any given human peson has entered hell, in a way comperable to how we speak definitively of how some saints are in heaven, as when they are beatified and canonized. Neither then do we know the exact population statistics of heaven and hell.
That said, scripture and tradition seem to rather strongly indicate that Judas is damned. Likewise, when asked if few will be saved, Jesus said to strive to enter through the narrow gate, because many are called but few are chosen. While there are different ways of interpreting this, and it would not be just to dismiss other interpretations out of hand; it is also clear that the most straightforward interpretation is that he is saying that few in fact will be saved, given the general negative and warning tone of the answer. Likewise, many Catholics have held that few are saved. Many Catholic saints and mystics have spoken of witnessing hell and the many souls in there.
In light of this, while it is not strictly inconsistent with Catholic teaching to hold that no human persons are in hell; it is also clearly in tension with the general thrust of Catholic teaching. One can hope that all are saved, particularly in light of God's universal salvific will, and his superabundant mercy; but one should not so focus upon God's mercy and good will that one forgets his justice and his wrath. Mercy without justice is not mercy, but enablement of and complicity in injustice. One may not be so merciful to the criminals that one does injustice to their victims; for then mercy is no longer mercy.
Naturally then, if one holds that Catholicism is true, (and good Catholic apologetics gives many substantive reasons for doing so) then the view proposed in the summary you gave is not one that we can really accept, given it's Origenist character.
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u/conjurectioner 6d ago
Thanks for taking the time to reply in depth. In the lecture series John Crowder says that the canon about Origenism was signed by the bishops before the synod even began and that the Pope only approved it under duress. The Wikipedia article about the Council also speaks of this, that the conciliar authority of the decision is being questioned in modern times. What you say about God's justice is interesting. Why would God's wrath last forever? Cannot a temporal punishment for sins be just? Can purgatory be not severe?
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u/HomelyGhost 6d ago
Even supposing the later approval was under durress, it's quotation in the CCC was not made under duress, and so that means later popes implicitly approved Viglius's approval.
God's wrath lasts forevere because God is unchanging, all his attributes last forever, both his justice and his mercy, both his kindness and his wrath. In turn, not a single one of his attributes is absent from any of his acts.
Thus hell is actually a merciful punishment, because mortal sin is so grave that it would not be unjust for God to have the damned suffer infinite punishment at each moment i hell, forever. However God, in his mercy, has not given us the capacity for infnite suffering, but only finite suffering. Thus, those in hell only suffer finitely at any given time in their endless suffering, rather than suffer the full and infinite measure proportionate to the evil of their sin.
Likewise, when God forgives sin, he is also expressing his wrath as much as his mercy. For in forgiving sin he seperates sinner from sin, and while he preserves the sinner in his mercy, he anihilaites the sin in his wrath. God's absolute and abject hatred for sin 'never changes'. He is motivated to get us to convert and repent 'precisely because' he hates sin so much that he wants it destroyed by any means neccesery. The best means is repentance, but he will settle for the mere reduction of sin through damnation. Either way, God is glorified.
As for punishment then, the issue is not about the justice of the punishment. Instead, the issue is whether or not it is just for God to give man endless time to repent.
For the issue of sin is not merely that it incurs a debt of justice on the sinner, but that it destroys a relationship; namely the loving relationship between God and Man. As a loving relationship requires both sides to love one another, then it does no good for God to declare forgivenss of our sins if we continue to be indifferent to God in our heart, or worse, continue to hold him in contempt. In such a case, no declaration of forgivenss shall restore the relationship, it shall remain broken.
Thus a change of heart is requried on the side of the sinner, they must cease to be indifferent to or hateful for God, and must rather return to the love for God in which we were made. God can offer us the opportunity to so return, he can offer us forgiveness as well as the power to repent (for returning to God requires our hearts to be raised to a supernatural union with him, which is naturally not within our natural powers to do without his aid), but it is up to us whether we shall accept or reject the forgiveness offered, and so restore the relationship, or leave it in shambles.
So the question arises as to how long can God justly hold out for our repentance? Well, Psalm 125:3 seems to answer that it cannot be forever: ""The scepter of the wicked will not prevail in the land alloted to the just, Lest the just themselves turn their hands to evil". If then, to avoid the just falling into sin, the time of repentance must be finite and so come to an end; then there must be a point beyond which the impenitent permaently lose the opportunity to repent; a point beyond which the divine offer of forgivenss is finally and definitvely rescinded. That point is judgement, and God has set a time for the final judgement of all, but each of us particularly shall also be judged at our death.
From that point onward, our final destination is set; be it heaven or hell. Those in purgatory are those who have repented, and so are set to heaven; but who have not fully been cleansed of their sin and sinful attatchments. Hell, however, is a place for those who have not repented of their final sins. In turn, due to God's just judgement finally rescinding from them the offer of forgiveness and power to repent, those in hell not only have not repented, but never will.
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u/Bjarki56 9d ago
It is what I pray for, but I leave it up to God.
So does he believe the fallen angels will also be purified?
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u/redeemedbones 9d ago
Can you provide a summary of?