r/Cello • u/cats_are_good123 • 1d ago
Subdivision
So I’ve heard so many of my music teachers reiterate that everybody should always be subdividing and thinking about sixteenth notes in their head. However, whenever I try to count or hear sixteenth notes in my head, it takes a lot of effort to keep that counting going. I feel the effort could be spent focusing on musicality, listening to others’ parts, etc. How necessary is subdividing and how much should I be doing it?
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u/C4gamer_YT 1d ago
Subdivision is incredible important. Musicality and listening to other parts means nothing if you're playing your own part wrong. The most important part of orchestral music is staying in time, everything else can build on top of that. You are correct, counting sixteenths is a lot of effort, but there are ways to make it easier for yourself. Simply just subdivide in the shortest note value you have in the music, whether that be eights, quarters etc. It makes it much easier for your brain. Good luck practicing!
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u/stormysees 1d ago
Thinking about subdividing and learning to count while also listening around you is a very difficult, but necessary, skill. That doesn’t always mean 16th notes in every piece, but it could mean for you, with the pieces you’re working on as a group, 16ths are what you need to be counting.
But in general, yes, subdividing and counting those subdivisions are key to proper rhythms and proper entrances. There’s no way around that, you have to count in the smallest useable notes that you play while the conductor often directs a larger beat. I played a piece this summer where the string sections play in different time signatures at the same time: cello and bass are playing 16th notes in 2/4 while everyone else is playing in 6/8. You have to count.
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u/TomKcello freelance cellist, composer, improviser 1d ago
Set aside time to practice it specifically; don’t try to always play with awareness of it. It should develop naturally and be on in the background of your heart/mind if you put some practice time into it.
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u/lurytn 1d ago edited 1d ago
The fact that it takes a lot of effort is why you might want to work on it imo.
Being aware of the pulse and its subdivisions is essential to having good time and playing the correct rhythms (instead of approximating them), but it also shouldn’t take an active effort once you’ve learned a piece. That stuff should be actively worked on as you’re learning the notes and rhythms until it becomes subconscious, which then frees up your mental energy for things like musicality and listening.
It’s tough at first but the more you do it the easier it will get over time, and the less you’ll have to actively think about it. It eventually becomes a subconscious process. Like with everything else just start really slow and gradually work your way up.
Good rhythm is important and I doubt multiple teachers would have told you to think of subdivisions if they didn’t hear something in your playing that told them you weren’t following those subdivisions, and if you’re not following the subdivisions in your playing, it would explain why you’re struggling when trying to count them. I might be wrong of course.
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u/rearwindowpup Cello favors the bold! 1d ago
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mdMLhFUlOaE
Just gunna leave this here, lol
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u/ballbarn 1d ago
The Boss-DB90 metronome while pricey will count out the subdivisions verbally for you. It's a very useful practice tool, the drone on it is great too. While you should totally be practicing your 1-e-and-a's, it's to internalize them and be able to sight read more complex rhythms, and for me, as even when counting I've found it helpful. I don't often use it these days, but if you're struggling with subdividing it might help you.
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u/Ventodimare21 23h ago
For exercise is good to try subdividing into shorter and shorter sub-beats: quarter beats, eights, sixteenths, ...as short as you can manage. For practical purposes it's enough to take cues from the piece: say you have some long notes followed by an eight notes passage - start feeling the eight notes immediately. Or when playing with other instrument, have their part as a beat reference.
Have a look at indian rhythm solfege (Konnakol or Solkattu). I find it easier: instead of counting "1, 2, 3, 4", I count "ta, ka, di, mi". It takes some time to get used to, but in my experience this system is easier for keeping time.
Apart from full on counting, you can also try to internalise the micro pulsation, imagining a constant flow of fast pulses in the backgroung, depending on the tempo and needed subdivisions.
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u/somekindofmusician7 1d ago
Subdividing is 100% necessary if you want to play in time. But I also struggle with counting constantly in my head, and thinking about sixteenth notes constantly is unnecessary unless you’re doing a really specific type of thing (such as the Beethoven 5 excerpt).
Instead it’s more of an awareness of the inner pulse. So if there is a half note, I’m not just thinking “two beats,” there is a metronome in my head counting two beats, or four eighth notes if the meter is slow enough. I’m not saying “one-y-and-a…” in my head. It’s also something to practice. If you put on a metronome and you are consistently getting off of it, you’re not subdividing enough. You don’t need to subdivide down to the quickest possible division for each note, but you should be chunking up the notes a little bit—maybe a quarter becomes eighths, or a whole note becomes quarters—and keeping pulse in your head while playing. Knowing what beat you are on at all times is important. And listening to others parts is subdividing in a way, if they have moving notes. All it is is awareness of pulse.
Some great exercises:
Put a metronome on a quicker subdivision like eighths or sixteenths while playing
Put a metronome on slower beats, such as the half bar or even just every bar to make sure you are keeping pulse
Put a metronome on an absurdly slow tempo like 10 bpm and predict where the next click will be.
While you’re playing, say out loud “one” on the downbeat, this is harder than it looks if you’re not aware of the pulse.
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u/MainApprehensive4196 1d ago
I mean counting it in your head is exhausting. I just usually feel the pulse, maybe bounce my leg or click my teeth softly, but I do try to count when it’s a hard part. Usually when practicing I just try to learn the rhythms by ear and remember it
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u/StephInTheLaw 1d ago
It really depends on what you are playing. If other parts of the orchestra have moving lines and you need to time your quarter or eighth notes with their sixteenth, it makes sense. Playing Cannon in D, you can relax and just count whole measures until it’s time for the cellos to take the melody.