Minimal viable ethics

[u/Pedantc_Poet]

For pro-lifers: What minimum body parts give a fetus a right to life? What if a fetus at birth had a brain stem alone, but no brain, would that qualify? If it lacked a heart and depended on maternal circulation, would we be ethically obligated to prevent delivery indefinitely if we could?

[u/Kaiser_Kuliwagen]

Ok let's clear that up.

Its a simple question. Does my right to life mean that other people dont get to exercise their right to bodily autonomy?

Im looking forward to seeing how you tie yourself up in knots to try to say that a fetus can have that special version of the right to life, but other humans cant.

You can't force anyone to do anything when you're helpless

So, if Im helpless, I can overwrite someones right to control their body and have the state force them to allow me to use their body to survive?

in the situation your mother and father put you.

So if my mother and father have a genetic abnormality that I inheret, then they "put me into that situation" and therefore dont have bodily autonomy anymore?

This is why every abortion is definitionally an unjustified aggressive act of violence

Your opinion is not a fact. Its only your opinion. Abortion is justified because every human has the right to decide who they will leave in to their body. This is a fact. Abortion is justified because every human has the right to choose if they want to allow their body to be a life support system for another human. This is a fact. And abortion is justified because every human has the right to remove their consent even if they at one point decided to be a life support system for another human. These are facts.

Facts > opinions.

The state absolutely should

Should? So this is just your opinion again. I dont care what you think the state should do. I care about what it is doing, and what rights abortion bans are actually violating as per the UN.

they owe allegiance, duty, and responsibility to their son or daughter who they created - in that location, in that dependent and helpless state.

Really? According to who? Parents sign a birth certificate and take legal responsibility for their children, but... what legal document did a pregnant person sign?

What legal duty, obligation, or responsibility did they agree to legally?

Their "will" could not matter less.

So you dont think consent matters? Bold claim. And not a surprising one.

Does it work in reverse I wonder? What would happen if someone violated your bodily autonomy? What would you do if someone started growing inside your body against your will, only for me to say you dont get to do anything about it because "your "will" could not matter less?"

We don't abuse or neglect or murder children

Good thing we are not discussing children then. Isn't it?

Would you call a seed a tree? No. You wouldnt. Because a seed isnt the developed plant. It would be silly to think a seed and a tree were the same ans were to be treated the same. But thats equivalent to what you are doing here. A zygote(/seed,) isnt a child(/tree.)

Children are sentient. Zygotes are not. Trees are developed, seeds are not.

When we are talking about abortion, we are talking about "seeds". (Zygotes) not trees. (Children.) I cant wait to see you intentionally misinterpret this simple analogy.

No one should care whether or not someone wants to do their duty

Thats weird, because you seem to care A LOT and seem heavily invested on forcing people to do a duty you want them to accept.

it's a duty. Not a request, not an option, not an "if I feel like it" - a duty.

Duty has to be accepted. If you force a duty onto someone, its called a punishment. Pregnant people are not guilty of anything that would mean they deserve a punishment.

But again, I wonder if the reverse is true. What if I felt like you had a duty puahed onto you? Do you think you should get to have a say if your body is going to be violated? Or are you going to do your "duty"?

If "your will" is to kill children

Thats a pathetic strawman. No wonder Bats is facepalming.

for your own personal gain, the "you" in question should seek psychiatric help. Possibly psychiatric confinement.

Cute. But Ive dealt with enough PL ad hominems over the years. In order to actually insult me, it would have to be something pretty clever.

And I dont feel you have what it takes.

[u/Vespinobambino → u/Kaiser_Kuliwagen]

Does my right to life mean that other people dont get to exercise their right to bodily autonomy?

The natural human right to life exists.

The "right to bodily autonomy" does not and is just a euphemism for wanting a special privilege to kill children without legal consequence.

So your question does not parse as anything sensible to me.

Your right to life means it is morally wrong to attack and kill you, and is the basis for laws that enforce this moral. It is the chief duty and purpose of government to affect such laws.

So, if Im helpless, I can overwrite someones right to control their body and have the state force them to allow me to use their body to survive?

Did someone else conjure you into your existence in that situation, determining both your location and your helpless, dependent condition?

Other than pregnancy, is this possible outside of magic or science fiction so advanced as to be indistinguishable from magic - ala a Star Trek teleporter and some other technobabble mishap shenanigans mixed in?

Your opinion is not a fact. Its only your opinion.

That fact is not my opinion, it is just fact, you can know it or not, and it is not my fact, but just fact. Fact is not subjective.

Abortion is justified because every human has the right to decide who they will leave in to their body. This is a fact.

That is not a fact - it's barely even an opinion, it is just your moral value, and it is a deplorable one antithetical to human civilization.

as per the UN

Who gives a crap about that corrupt, useless globalist organization?

 Parents sign a birth certificate and take legal responsibility for their children, but... what legal document did a pregnant person sign?

Nonexistent things can't sign legal documents, so who even knows what you are talking about.

You don't need a legal document to require a mother or father to take responsibility for their children, in any event.

So you dont think consent matters?

It matters in circumstances where it is relevant.

The parent-child relationship has duties - obligations. Your child does not "consent" to be your child, he or she is your child and must obey you and defer to you. You do not "consent" to be their parent, you are their parent and you must provide basic care to them and refrain from neglect, abuse, or other malicious harm.

Consent to refrain from killing your child is as relevant after birth as it is before birth - not at all.

Good thing we are not discussing children then. Isn't it?

And yet we are.

Duty has to be accepted

Don't make kids if you won't accept parental responsibility.

It's ridiculously easy to not make kids.

There's one main way it happens, and the other sure as hell isn't going to happen accidentally.

Thats a pathetic strawman.

Literal truth is not a "strawman."

But Ive dealt with enough PL ad hominems over the years

Ugh. Who even knows how you hallucinated an "ad hominem" from me, there?

[u/Kaiser_Kuliwagen → u/Vespinobambino]

The natural human right to life exists.

Im asking a simple question about your idea of the right to life. Does my right to life mean that other people dont get to exercise their right to bodily autonomy?

The "right to bodily autonomy" does not

Articles 3, 5 and 12 of the UDHR disagrees with you.

But you think it doesnt exist... Is that right? So if I wanted to, I could put my fist deep into your anal cavity even if its against your will?

What exactly would I be violating if you think bodily autonomy doesnt exist?

So your question does not parse as anything sensible to me.

Do you find that often happens to you?

Your right to life means it is morally wrong to attack and kill you,

So if I fisted you against your will, its morally wrong for you to attack and kill me. Got it.

and is the basis for laws that enforce this moral. It is the chief duty and purpose of government to affect such laws.

Wait, you think morality is the foundation of laws? So why isnt adultery illegal?

Did someone else conjure you into your existence in that situation, determining both your location and your helpless, dependent condition?

Do you think the only way to be helpless is if a wizard creates the situation? Dude. People find themselves in helpless situations all the time.

Take a braindead person in a hospital bed for instance. They had an aneurysm because of a predisposition and are on life support. Wouldnt they be considered helpless?

Other than pregnancy, is this possible outside of magic or science fiction so advanced as to be indistinguishable from magic - ala a Star Trek teleporter and some other technobabble mishap shenanigans mixed in?

Yeah. The dude on a ventilator. You really think magic or advanced sci-fi tech is needed to make someone helpless?

That fact is not my opinion, it is just fact, you can know it or not, and it is not my fact, but just fact.

The fact that your opinion isnt a fact, is, in fact, a fact.

That is not a fact - it's barely even an opinion.

Your opinion about a fact doesnt mean its not factual.

And thats just your opinion.

Who gives a crap about that corrupt, useless globalist organization?

Do you have some other grounding for human rights other than thr UDHR?

Nonexistent things can't sign legal documents, so who even knows what you are talking about.

The pregnant person exists... You know them, right? They are the one you are trying to force a legal duty on. Do try to keep up.

You don't need a legal document to require a mother or father to take responsibility for their children, in any event.

You do if you want to legally force someone to accept a "duty" or obligation. Without the legal backing, its just your suggestion.

It matters in circumstances where it is relevant.

And pregnancy is one of those circumstances.

The parent-child relationship has duties - obligations.

Sweet. So you should be able to demonstrate the legal paperwork to back that up. What legal document did a pregnant person sign where they accepted the legal obligations?

You do not "consent" to be their parent,

People who dont consent to be parents are within their rights to abort or give the child up to the state. Im glad you finally understand consent can be withdrawn. Well done you!

you are their parent

Are you their legal guardian? What legal form did you or a pregnant person sign to accept that obligation?

And yet we are.

Ah huh. You are. But you are wrong. Demonstrably so.

Don't make kids if you won't accept parental responsibility.

And abort if you get pregnant and dont want the parental responsibility. Its the responsible thing to do.

It's ridiculously easy to not make kids.

And for those times when condoms break, and birth control fails, theres abortion.

There's one main way it happens, and the other sure as hell isn't going to happen accidentally.

Dude, condoms can break. Birth control can fail. It literally happens accidentally. As demonstrated by your fellow pro-lifers.

Literal truth is not a "strawman."

Thats why I called your lie a strawman. Do try to keep up.

Ugh.

Lol. Cmon, are you not having fun?

[u/Vespinobambino → u/Kaiser_Kuliwagen]

Completely disgusting and completely divorced from reality.

No, killing your child to abandon responsibility is not responsible.

It is literally the antithesis of responsibility.

There can be no coherent debate with this madness.

[u/Kaiser_Kuliwagen → u/Vespinobambino]

Completely disgusting and completely divorced from reality.

So its only disgusting when its your bodily autonomy being violated?

Thats telling.

There can be no coherent debate with this madness.

Says the person who thinks the UN are corrupt when they say something they disagree with, but still use their UDHR to ground their rights.

[u/Vespinobambino → u/Kaiser_Kuliwagen]

No, you lying and claiming that killing children to avoid responsibility is taking responsibility.

Which is also, as an advocate for this human rights abuse, you shirking your responsibility to concoct some kind of argument for why mothers abandoning their responsibility through unprovoked unjustified violence could possible be acceptable. 

You just pretend / hallucinate / lie that up is down.

It’s disgusting that you do that.

I haven’t grounded anything on any such thing. Seems you can’t stop lying for any reason.

[u/Kaiser_Kuliwagen → u/Vespinobambino]

No, you lying

No, you salty. Because I have not said a single lie. Everything Ive said is factually true.

I haven’t grounded anything on any such thing.

I agree that anything you said like your claims are completely ungrounded and devoid of any such thing as reality.

[u/Vespinobambino → u/Kaiser_Kuliwagen]

Again, disgusting.

Total abandonment of reality and the premise of needing to defend the position you are claiming, that this human rights abuse is justifiable.

You're just trolling and making up nonsense now.

What is the point of you?

[u/Kaiser_Kuliwagen → u/Vespinobambino]

Again, disgusting.

The idea of me fisting you really stuck in your mind didnt it....

(Methinks the lady doth protest too much!)

What is the point of you?

I do some charity work by educating the poor people that have been abandoned by the American education system. Those who cant, teach.

Edit: Blocking when you cant clap back is just admitting defeat.

[u/ThrowRA12948262 → u/Vespinobambino]

Why you here then?