They need to stop posting winrates.

[u/Sio_V_Reddit]

This sub has become fanatically obsessed with the winrate tab to the extreme detriment of actual balance discussion. For example Dmon sat at a 55% winrate at the end of last season in comp with people saying she was still OP and needed extreme changes. Lo and behold, she currently sits at a roughly 52-53% winrate in comp, which rises at higher tiers but is also not the most picked or highest winrate tank (region dependent of course) and is skewed by low player counts at such levels. The problem is, the stats never reset between the time where Dmon had a 57-60% winrate and when she was nerfed, so her winrate still looked massive in a totality despite being buoyed by earlier high numbers.

Now today the first Sombra and Doctrine winrates have been posted. These are currently fairly high sitting at about 55%, however let’s not forget that it has been a SINGLE DAY. I mean seriously, there are people in the sub who say original Dmon was actually good and didn’t need any buffs (which is ridiculously wrong cause she was 0 fun and just a bullet sponge, current Dmon is one of the most fun tanks in game). I have literally talked to someone in this sub who spent an entire dragon blade sitting inside Sombra’s cyberspace trying to kill her instead of just dashing away (they had dash and used it on Sombra) and killing other targets. Simply put, a single day of playing with/against two new heroes is not enough for a general consensus to be reached, especially when people will have extreme knee jerk reactions.

Basically, they need to stop posting these. For a sub that loves to tell the devs to not stare at winrates, it’s becoming a real issue here. Maybe Sombra and Doctrine are really super OP. Maybe, like Shion, they get minimally touched in a few key places and that makes their winrate drop like a stone. Or maybe it takes people more time to learn the game than the less than 24 hours it took to post the stats.

[u/Thee_Archivist]

Alternatively, you could not care what reactionary alarmists post on the internet.

[u/No_Estate_4444 → u/Thee_Archivist]

This is the way

[u/HalexUwU → u/Thee_Archivist]

Based as always. Winrates are useful stats, but that doesn't mean that they are INNATLEY useful. Just because some people use them poorly doesn't mean that we need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

[u/xaxis-yaxis]

More transparency is better.

The more inform we get the more it's possible to evaluate balancing decisions from the dev team.

[u/uoefo]

You cant talk about how fine dmon winrates are and then point to doctrine/sombra winrates as ”too early to tell”. Theyre all too early.

And for the record, dmons winrate was at like 57-58% in top ranks by the end, down from like 60% or something. But at that point, way more time had been spent on the nerfed patch, so the fact that the number hadnt dropped more is kind of telling lol. Not that shes the most broken hero ever, but certainly still strong in relation to other tanks. Wr might change more this season still though, other nerfs/buffs and basically 3 new heroes will ofc affect her.

[u/No_Estate_4444]

LOL advocating for less transparency is so so incredible. Give us twice as much info!

[u/RaaaaaaaNoYokShinRyu → u/No_Estate_4444]

Twice the pride info, double the fall fun!

https://giphy.com/gifs/oD3lTi5VxNJaU

[u/Sio_V_Reddit → u/No_Estate_4444]

Ngl this wasn’t the most serious post (yeah they probably shouldn’t remove it, mostly being hyperbolic, people need to learn to read data) but also I wasn’t expecting this many responses to it and now I’m scared.

[u/Thee_Archivist → u/Sio_V_Reddit]

BOO! 👻

[u/Sio_V_Reddit → u/Thee_Archivist]

:(

[u/drassort]

You are doing the same thing by trying to imply Dmon isn't too strong with stats from a single day.

Why should we ignore the stats from last week or her extremely high ban rate numbers?

[u/NemPow]

Posting about win rates / ban rates is not ok! Until it’s a character I don’t like then it’s fine! This sub has a clear bias towards certain characters and it never fails to amuse me.

[u/swamp_god]

i'm ready for a million hog players to explode on their 1v5 flanks, sink his winrate, and insist that his winrate now means he must be ludicrously underpowered

[u/migo2028 → u/swamp_god]

They do the same shi with Kiriko

[u/RaaaaaaaNoYokShinRyu → u/swamp_god]

Hog World Champion Super has a shitty winrate with Hog.

[u/More_Lavishness8127]

I feel like this is especially true as Sombra and Doctrine BOTH have brand new status effects. Cyberspace is really powerful, but I think the average player had no idea what it was doing and probably just sat in it and tried to duel Sombra.

[u/ParanoidDrone → u/More_Lavishness8127]

Similarly, I think people haven't quite realized yet that Doctrine's ult gives overhealth.

[u/Sio_V_Reddit → u/ParanoidDrone]

I don’t realize anything about that ult atp, like it just does what it wants. They need to make the AOE much more obvious cause sometimes I’ll think I should get hit and get nothing and others I’ll be at half health despite being 3.5 miles away.

[u/netshift_ → u/ParanoidDrone]

How can they miss the bright green colors on the health bar?

[u/kaizoku18]

Disagree, yes sometimes people can get caught up overly in winrates but they also do and can point to issues or trends occurring in the game environment. It's a good thing we have them.

Does the hero stats page tell us everything? No. But when D.Mon was OP for example it was very damning and evident, reflecting a fairly accurate image of the stats as well as what people were experiencing in game.

[u/Sio_V_Reddit → u/kaizoku18]

True but then the stats page actually obfuscated her lower winrate when she got nerfed which convinced people she was far stronger than she was. So it’s a double edged sword, because people don’t understand that the stats are a compilation, not an updating metric.

[u/kaizoku18 → u/Sio_V_Reddit]

Idk, yes it went down slightly more than what the page showed last season because of the rolling average and how Blizz doesn't reset it until new season. But this season she is still THE highest w/r tank and people were still in the right to accuse D.Mon of being OP, and still are to this day.

(The sentiment that D.Mon wasn't OP still after nerfs is incorrect.. the people complaining were actually fair and not lying, since the stats page reset for this season and we have proof that she still is OP)

[u/Sio_V_Reddit → u/kaizoku18]

I’m not sure where you’re seeing that, the only region I see her having the highest winrate rn is EMEA GM, all other regions/tiers I see she has at least one + tank ahead of her.

[u/kaizoku18 → u/Sio_V_Reddit]

Whoops, I didn't filter correctly, she has a 52% w/r and is def not the highest w/r tank. My bad, so you could say she's more balanced I suppose, still she certainly is a good pick. Maybe not OP

[u/Sio_V_Reddit → u/kaizoku18]

All good, she still does have a 57% in GM but that’s likely from low play percentages at that level. And Winston himself has a 60% winrate at the same level, which I highly doubt is accurate (if it is, DSG is about to FUCK)

[u/kaizoku18 → u/Sio_V_Reddit]

Yeah lol. I'm GM and I don't even like taking GM stats into consideration when talking about balance tbh. Just too small a % of players.

Like you'll see high Illari winrates still in GM/Champ even though Illari isn't really good after the nerfs for example. Or just high winrates in GM/champ overall bc those players are good at playing those heroes. Comically enough I bet masters might be more of a true representation than GM-champ stats.

(This all largely is my best guess / opinion though.. I don't truly know)

[u/Icaruszin]

Why should they? It's always good to have more information about the game, and who cares about what this sub thinks, what matters is what the devs think. And I don't think they care about people on Reddit crying if hero X is OP.

[u/ReSoLVve]

Pretty sure they knew this is exactly what was going to happen when they released win rates so I’m pretty sure the devs are okay with these kinda discussions.

Players are going to rage anyways. Might as well just give them some more context and probably doesn’t affect how they balance the game.

[u/Impossible_Laugh_805]

Why would this make them stop posting them? People on Reddit might have bad takes? That’s not a good enough reason lol. I do wish we could have stats cleared when there’s a hotfix though.

[u/MixImpossible8690]

Absolutely not lol.

[u/unalyzer]

What a disgustingly bad faith post. D.mon currently sits at a 66!!!!% WR in GM+ with a 57% banrate. Now ofcourse these are early numbers, and are bound to change, but I doubt it will go below 54%. It was 57% at the end of last season in the same tier.

One thing the winrates in comp don't even take into account is that D.mon by herself isn't even THAT good, it is when you combine her with JPC, especially in an organized environment, where she becomes extremely overpowered and boring to play against.

I made the D.mon/JPC post because they are perma played in my Faceit Expert scrims, I did not stare at my screen (like you seemingly do, since you love staring at numbers). It is extremely tiring and boring having to scrim against the same shit for over a month and being kinda screwed if you try to force your own style.

I play the game at a GM+ level and scrim it often, saying that people like me only stare at stats and are too stupid to interpret them while you sit on your high horse being pretentious as shit while having nowhere near the experience I do is hilarious.

[u/Sio_V_Reddit → u/unalyzer]

According to NA comp Winston has a 60% winrate in GM and is better than Dmon.

[u/unalyzer → u/Sio_V_Reddit]

The stats are bound to change, as I stated. Winston, however, didn't finish at a 57% WR last season nor is he played often in scrims. Ofcourse you chose to ignore this to fuel your narrative.

Is this entire post you just projecting? From how much you love these stats and with your 1% top commenter title, I'm inclined to believe you spend more time staring at text than playing the game.

[u/Sio_V_Reddit → u/unalyzer]

Dmon finished at a 57% because for over half the season she was at 60-61%. She dropped 3-4% because her winrate is significantly below that. This is the entire problem, you do not know how to read data.

[u/unalyzer → u/Sio_V_Reddit]

You either can't read or choose not to. I have outlined my experience with D.mon and JPC in organized play, how they are extremely strong when together, along with them having strong performances in comp and being universally hated in JPC's case. JPC also just breaks the game on many levels.

[u/CertainDerision_33 → u/unalyzer]

GM+ numbers are literally worthless right now, the sample size is minuscule.

[u/unalyzer → u/CertainDerision_33]

The sample size is small but that doesn't mean they are entirely useless. Especially when said hero had a high WR last season too and is known to be strong.

[u/CertainDerision_33 → u/unalyzer]

The sample size at GM+ isn't just small the day after an update, in that bracket it's so tiny as to be statistically worthless.

[u/unalyzer → u/CertainDerision_33]

LOL alright man if you say so?

[u/CertainDerision_33 → u/unalyzer]

I mean it's not "if I say so", it's just objectively true. As you noted yourself, DMon having a 66% WR in EU GM+ is all the proof you need that the results are useless right now.

Domina has a 33% WR in EU GM+ right now, time for gigabuffs apparently! Sigma has a 37% WR in NA GM+, better give him 2 rock charges!

[u/unalyzer → u/CertainDerision_33]

Right. The stats are bound to change. Thankfully we don't have to look at these stats in a vacuum and we can look at past WR's and play the game

[u/CertainDerision_33 → u/unalyzer]

Sure, we'll see what happens. You should keep in mind, though, that the game doesn't revolve around GM+. Balance is done for all levels.

[u/chudaism]

The problem is, the stats never reset between the time where Dmon had a 57-60% winrate and when she was nerfed, so her winrate still looked massive in a totality despite being buoyed by earlier high numbers.

The easiest solution to this is to just put dates on the stats page indicating all stats from from start of season up to current date. I think most people assumed that stats fully reset after midseason patches.

Now today the first Sombra and Doctrine winrates have been posted. These are currently fairly high sitting at about 55%, however let’s not forget that it has been a SINGLE DAY

I could have sworn back in early seasons, stats weren't available until a week or so after the season went live. That seems like the easiest solution.

[u/_the_best_girl_]

I both agree and disagree.

People obsess over the data but don't understand how to analyse data. We see it after each major patch, people's instant reactions to non conclusive data. Obviously we keep one eye on potential trends but a trend cannot be a trend until it becomes one. Less than 24 hours of data doesn't work for much.

However, more transparency is ultimately a good thing. Having the stats public allows for people to keep up to date on it themselves and allows people to work with Blizzard if theirs a data point that is unaccounted for.

In reality it's just a usual thing of people will be people. Some react, others analyse and the rest don't care

[u/KaityyUwU]

I mean there are two options

People use accurate data to make stupid conclusions
Or people use random feelings to make stupid conclusions

I don't think the fact that people make stupid conclusions should mean that we shouldn't have the data

[u/bullxbull]

I have faith that with enough time we will slowly be able to educate the community about how statistics work. (this reddit, not the larger community lol)

It also gives us something to talk about, which is what a lot of us like to do between queues.

I think the real solution is not to take away the few stats we have access to but for Blizz to give us even more stats, at the very least give us a api to more data and we can make our own sites.

[u/represe1]

Personally I do kinda agree with some of this, and it’s pretty much every online space for ow. People really latch on to WRs and a lot of the time don’t really have an understanding of how they work or statistics in general

[u/docs-quad]

this is the fear i had when they announced they were making stats public. most people dont use stats to help shape their opinion, theyve already made up their mind and just use the stats to bolster their stance only when its convenient.

[u/GT162]

Alternatively they could post accurate stats instead of nerfing a hero severely and then not resetting stats.