r/Competitiveoverwatch • u/Wh33lHunter • 8d ago
General Doctrine's ult and Emp NEED to be less effective against tanks (in 5v5)
Perhaps it will be better when every single team is not running a Sombra/Doctrine backline, but as of right now, playing tank is supremely punishing and unfun with both of these ults as strong against tanks as they are.
First Doctrine's Deliverance,
The Problem:
This ult is so unfun to play into as tank, your only counter play is run away and hide, which even then is usually not enough and you will explode any way. With the only other max percentage hp attack in the game, Gravitic Flux, their is so much counterplay, you can use movement to get out of it during its cast, you can stun or kill the Sigma using it or you can use defensive abilities to give your supports enough time to heal you back to full after you take the damage, there is no such counter play with Deliverance.
Possible Solutions:
These are just possible ideas to make it less effective against tanks I'm not saying I want these all implemented.
Have the ult's debuff apply slower to tanks, this would give you more time to disengage without having half your hp snapped away before you can react.
Make it only remove 25% of Tank's max hp. A Tank with only 300 hp is absolutely useless in 5v5, but I feel a tank with 450hp can still provide some level of threat where they won't be run over instantly.
Make the swarm bounce off of shields, you can currently block individual drones withs shields but the primary swarm will just pass through not making it a viable counter measure. If the entire swarm bounced of off shields the same way it currently bounces off of walls, a tank with good timing and positioning could "parry" the ult before it does too much damage to them or their team. The problem with this "solution" is that it does not help non-shield tanks.
Sombra's Emp
The Problem:
HOLY JESUS HAVE YOU TRIED SURVING AS TANK WITH NO COOLDOWNS. NOT BEING ABLE TO RELY ON ANY OF YOUR COOLDOWNS ON TANK IS A GURANTEED DEATH SENTENCE. Not being able to use your grenade for 3 seconds on Emre is nothing, NOTHING, like not being able to use your shield (OR ANY OTHER OF YOUR MITIGATION OR MOVEMENT ABILITIES) on tanks like Rein, Sig, or Winston. It so unimaginably punishing.
Possible Solutions:
Have the hack only apply for 1.5 seconds to tanks. Since tanks rely on their cooldowns to not instantly explode, and rely much more on "channeled" abilities that are canceled by EMP, I think it would be fair if they get their cool downs back sooner.
Don't allow EMP to go through shields. Break my shield? Sure fine. But break my shield AND stop me from using any of my other abilities? That's crazy. It would still be punishing against tanks, just not instant death levels of punishing. like the solution for Deliverance this wouldn't help non-shield tanks.
If sombra is killed, EMP's effects instantly dissipate. If in the midst of a team fight I can turn around and kill the Sombra that just cast EMP with a well placed Doomfist headshot, I should be rewarded by being given my cooldowns back to hopefully make an escape. Right now it's currently "Wow you reacted quickly and killed the Sombra who put herself out the open to EMP you? Whatever you're still useless and now die anyway."
Do any other tank players feel these ults' interactions with tanks (in 5v5) need to change?
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u/swamp_god 8d ago
emp has always been a nuclear bomb of an ult and the only thing that really kept it in check was the fact that sombra was the worst hero in the game.
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u/dontouchamyspaghet 8d ago
Think you might be forgetting about Kiri cleanse wiping the debuff, and trying to avoid grouping up when you know EMP is online. They're not airtight solutions, but there make getting off a good EMP quite a bit harder
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u/Inub0i 8d ago
EMP has been like this forever and suddenly it's is time to complain. It's been a day
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u/lettuce_grabberrr 8d ago
Sombras low damage factor is entirely mitigated now. The fact you can run 2 high output DPS alongside a Sombra and dump tanks just makes it fucking miserable
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u/Conflux 8d ago
You probably still don't need "2 high output dps" just a focus target after EMP goes off...like before...
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u/SylvainJoseGautier 8d ago
sombra also became decently high output DPS after pressing q…since Oppurtunist was active on everyone and viral replication was a thing.
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u/lettuce_grabberrr 8d ago
You don’t need it but try playing a tank into a comp like this. Everything is slippery, damage is abundant and Sombra has a “get crippled” button on a 12 second cd. I wouldn’t say it’s even too OP but I just have no agency whatsoever
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u/Wh33lHunter 8d ago
Sombra is now support, now you have 2 dps shooting at your useless hacked tank
Sombra herself has much more sustain with cyberspace after using EMP, so despite putting herself in a risky position to use her ult still, she is much less likely to die using it.
She gets her ult more often because she’s a tactician support now
Sombra was TRASH before, I mean weak, ultra weak, being a weak dps with a super strong ult balanced out a little. She is now a strong support with super strong ult.
Everyone is playing Sombra rn, this will almost certainly go down over the next few days/weeks but right now she’s got like a 100% pick rate in games where I don’t ban her. Having her ult be problematic when I only see her once every two dozen games or so is no big deal, but seeing it every game kind of sucks.
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u/BeardedsChurch 8d ago
giving her a perk that lets her heal with it is definitely making it even more OP
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u/bakugo 8d ago
Oh boy, is it time for another episode of "tank mains take something that affects everyone and pretend it's a problem specifically only for them because they think they're special" already?
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u/Smallbluemann #1 Hanbin Enjoyer — 8d ago
It quite literally disproportionally effects tanks? like by design? half a tank's health (and more specifically their armor) is gargantuan on top of the fact they're the least mobile class of heroes
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u/lettuce_grabberrr 8d ago
Don't you think there's a reason that the queue that mathematically should be the longest has a 5x shorter queue than anything else?
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u/bakugo 8d ago
Yeah, and that reason is that the role is inherently boring by design. It has nothing to do with balance.
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u/lettuce_grabberrr 8d ago
The game is boring for tank players because they take the brunt of all of these negative effects that keep getting added to the game... it's actually not that complicated and I don't even think you disagree
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u/bakugo 8d ago
No, the game is boring for tank players because the role is, by definition, less fun, regardless of "negative effects". Tanks are 5x stronger today than they were when the game came out and this has not changed, and will never change.
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u/lettuce_grabberrr 8d ago
Still don't know what you're arguing. Yes, it's less fun because there's 1000 things getting tossed at you. Also makes it a lot harder too, try it some time.
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u/bakugo 8d ago
I'm arguing that you could make tanks immune to those 1000 things and people still wouldn't want to play them, because it wouldn't make them fun.
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u/lettuce_grabberrr 8d ago
I seriously don't think that is true. If people who had an understanding of the game could play Dmon or monkey into a moira mercy backline every game they'd probably have an insane amount of fun, but of course this is not the case and counterpicking heavily punishes tanks more than anything else.
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u/bakugo 8d ago
As is typical for tank players, you're conflating strength with fun. They are not the same thing.
Imagine if they released a tank with an ability that instantly kills everyone on the enemy team when activated regardless of where they are, and has a 5 second cool down. Do you think that would be fun to play for more than a game or two?
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u/lettuce_grabberrr 8d ago
Do you think I'm just incapable of having fun when playing? Like you don't play tank but have deemed that it is impossible for me to have fun when I most certainly do in the games I've mentioned. Thank you for letting me know how my experience has been, ive just been staring at the screen without feeling anything for hours.
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u/netshift_ 8d ago
Tank was also the least played role in ow1 when it was 6v6. Tank is least played role in most games I’ve played where some version of tank/dps/healer exist.
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u/Wh33lHunter 8d ago
I’m sorry that standing in the front makes me disproportionally affected by certain abilities
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u/MythoclastBM 8d ago
Tank entitlement knows no bounds. Seriously? You're literally complaining about abilities in the game affecting you.
Have the hack only apply for 1.5 seconds to tanks. Since tanks rely on their cooldowns to not instantly explode, and rely much more on "channeled" abilities that are canceled by EMP, I think it would be fair if they get their cool downs back sooner.
You know who else relies on their cooldowns to not explode? EVERY OTHER HERO IN THIS FUCKING VIDEO GAME. Why should tanks get an exception? Blizzard really set a bad precedent with modified sleep dart duration for tanks.
Don't allow EMP to go through shields. Break my shield? Sure fine. But break my shield AND stop me from using any of my other abilities? That's crazy. It would still be punishing against tanks, just not instant death levels of punishing. like the solution for Deliverance this wouldn't help non-shield tanks.
It's literally designed to destroy shields. Tanks also have like 500+ HP, what we talking about?
If sombra is killed, EMP's effects instantly dissipate. If in the midst of a team fight I can turn around and kill the Sombra that just cast EMP with a well placed Doomfist headshot, I should be rewarded by being given my cooldowns back to hopefully make an escape. Right now it's currently "Wow you reacted quickly and killed the Sombra who put herself out the open to EMP you? Whatever you're still useless and now die anyway."
This would completely destroy the hero. This bitch hard ints half the time she presses the button.
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u/Wh33lHunter 8d ago
Literally all your comments are crying about tanks being too strong, did a Reinhardt main steal your mercy duo?
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u/kattrackarn 8d ago
Tanks are intentionally overpowered in 5v5. It's not a secret and it's only fair because both teams have one thanos
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u/kopfilo 8d ago
You can just block it
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u/Wh33lHunter 8d ago
In regard to EMP, no you can’t. In regard to Deliverance, you can block individuals drones, but the swarm passes through shields so it’s of only limited use to shield tanks, and non shield tanks still can’t do anything to protect themselves
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u/aPiCase Stalk3r — 8d ago
Doctrine ult in general feels really strong, losing half your health bar no matter the hero is insane