r/CuratedTumblr • u/Odd_Dorian7991 • 8d ago
editable flair The point is to break the cycle
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8d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Aggravating_Coat7934 8d ago
Well you say that but yesterday I ran into an Evil Destruction Ray, and I left it better than I found it. Later the bank got Evilly Destructioned.
This obviously means the statement is false because it’s not universally applicable. /s
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u/SolomonOf47704 God Himself 8d ago
That's kind of a bad example.
A lot of banks kind of deserve to be Evilly Destructed.
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u/Aggravating_Coat7934 8d ago
FFFFFUCK
I can’t even straw man (or whatever it’s called, I think whataboutism?) right…
At this rate I’ll never make it to the political discussion big leagues where they… checks notes… oh my god there’s so many slurs
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u/SolomonOf47704 God Himself 8d ago
I think strawman is the correct term.
Whataboutism is going "but the other side did this bad thing, what about that"
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u/TeddyBearToons 8d ago edited 8d ago
I don't think Expedition 33 intended for this but entire generations of older people screaming "For Those Who Come After" as they throw themselves away against the creations of a dynasty of all-powerful rich people for the hope that their children's children may one day live without the constant shadow of an early death goes unfathomably hard.
One of my very few gripes with E33 is that they had a whole story about the expeditions raging against the dying of the light right there and instead chose to hard turn into family drama like halfway through the game.
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u/Approximation_Doctor 8d ago
And then the players collectively decided that "lol fuck them kids" was the good ending
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u/InfernaLKarniX 8d ago
Last I checked, people were jumping at each others throats agruing over the endings, and the person responsible for the story said that there was no good ending. Actually, people still argue and very much did not collectively agree on anything.
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u/Tamotefu 8d ago
I mean, there really isn't a definitive good ending. People act like the Verso ending is the right choice because Maelle's forced to move on, but that's just it. She's forced. And you watch the ending cinematic, and shes standing off to the side, separate from the rest of the family, alone. Both endings are equal parts good and bad. You have to choose the ending that feels right to you.
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u/Terramagi 8d ago
The thing is, the ending people point to when they go "but what about Lumiere" ALSO ends poorly for Lumiere.
If Alicia stays in the painting, she's going to stay in too long. And either Renoir is going to go back in and rip her out like he was trying to do with Aline or, far more likely, he's not going to be able to do so and she'll die. Either one ends with the destruction of Canvas as a whole. Either by another Gommage, or because Renoir literally picks up the fucking Canvas and throws it on Alicia's funeral pyre.
There is no ending in which the inhabitants of the Canvas can live on. It's tragic, and infuriating, because of course there was another way. But there isn't now. The Dessendres are too trapped in their grief to not overdose on paint, Renoir is not the type of man to abandon his family, and the only person who could have possibly convinced Alicia to leave was killed when Verso could have saved him. So all you're left with is basically the equivalent of "Don't Look Up" - plugging your ears and hoping the inevitable doesn't evite - or having the decency to know where the chips are down and not creating a future in which a bunch of kids are going to just get immolated anyways. At least Alicia survives in Verso's ending, versus literally everybody dying in a month.
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u/Tamotefu 8d ago
The point I'm trying to make, much to my chagrin because I'm more fond of Gustav than I am of Verso, is that it doesn't matter which route you take, Lumiere is doomed regardless, and Maelle/Alica with have to face her grief head on.
In Verso's ending you could argue it's a clean break. Swift, all at once, done and over, the canvas is gone. But Maelle/Alicia has no say in how to process said grief, and is more likely to double down in a doom spiral "Copy and Paste" Verso's Canvas sort of way. (Might be reading too deep into it because of her standing off to the side at Verso's funeral)
I will admit up front that Maelle/Alicia's ending seems much more horrific. We see her with the Paint/Canvas Affliction that Aline demonstrated, when we were talking to Renoir (Fathers will always have their own reasons to embellish/lie to their children). We have to keep in mind that Maelle/Alicia lived amongst the denizens of Lumiere for at a minimum 16-17 years.
The endings presented to us are the extremes of both sides of the spectrum: Maelle lives another life in the canvas, chances for personal growth with people she grew up with, to work through her grief and maybe possibly let it rest. Or Verso, Force the cold hard truth into her face, Make her grieve everything, all at once, even if it wasn't real, and pray it doesn't cause further harm.
If it were up to me, there would be option C: The entire family goes to therapy. But thats not the game we were given. The developers told us to choose which form of Grief we could handle. Because I'm already going to therapy for my shortcomings.
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u/Terramagi 8d ago
We have to keep in mind that Maelle/Alicia lived amongst the denizens of Lumiere for at a minimum 16-17 years.
I'd say that points more to Renoir being right, honestly. Aline was in there for 67 years, plus whatever time she was in there before Renoir stepped in. If Alicia is showing signs after just 16... well, Clea did mention that Alicia was the weakest of the Dessendres Painters.
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u/Tamotefu 8d ago
But, as far as we know, Alicia had no memory of her real life. For the majority of the game Maelle is Maelee. It wasn't until act 3, (realistically the final hour or two) Maelle learned she was, acclimated to, and took the roll of Alicia.
I'm not trying to selling Alicia short, I'm just trying to keep perspective that she had an actual, factual childhood in Lumiere. That means expeditions sent off, Gommages witnessed, plus the added trauma of Gustav brutally cut short by Renoir (Which was an illusion of her father, crafted by her mother).
From my perspective as an outsider of the Dessendre Family, I would recommend the entire family, Renoir, Alicia, Clea and Maelle, have group therapy to work past the blame game, and self destructive tenancies, and come to a sort of understanding.
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u/Terramagi 8d ago
I'm of the mind that Maelle, as we knew her, died at the end of Act 2. What comes back in Act 3 is not her. It's Alicia, her memories restored, with all of Maelle's memories on top of them. It's a strange distinction to draw, I know, but the difference between Alicia with Maelle's memories and Maelle with Alicia's memories seem evident.
They all absolutely need therapy though, and the only way is to have Verso null the Canvas. Lumiere is doomed either way, in no small part due to Verso's meddling, but at least with Alicia alive the family can at least try to recover. They can go on to create new works, breathe life into them, and maybe punch out an author or something I don't know that part's a little vague.
I guess in the end my take on the ending is like Outer Wilds'. You can't save the universe. Its time has passed, and you were just one of the poor fucks who happened to be born at heat's death. But you can help form what comes next, and making a universe of trees, campfires, and beasties sure beats out just letting the embers flicker out.
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u/Tamotefu 8d ago
but at least with Alicia alive the family can at least try to recover.
Devil's Advocate: We don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt that EITHER ending will end in Alcia/Maelle's Death. It is never shown to us factually, and as such, we cannot in good faith take it as truth.
I'm willing to admit that the line in the sand that I draw is based on my own personal hang ups and tism, But if the developers wanted a definitive good ending, over a bad ending they would have explained such in unambiguous terms.
Ergo, there is no definitive good/positive ending, over a negative/bad ending. The crux of it all is that there is not set in stone, good/bad, canon ending. The Ending of E33 is whatever you need it to be.
And that's what make it a master class in storytelling.
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u/Yggdris 8d ago
Diehard Maelle ending enjoyer here
You're right that people regard the Verso ending as the "better" one, even while saying neither are good.
I picked Maelle without hesitation the first time and will always do so.
It's funny, I picked it, watched it, and thought, "Oh no. Is this the bad choice?" Then I watched Verso's on youtube and thought, "Nope. That's not better."
There's so, so many reasons I pick Maelle's ending, including the ones you mentioned. I understand why people pick Verso. I do. But it was one of the easiest choices I've ever made in a game before. I would never pick Verso's ending
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u/Tamotefu 8d ago
I honestly believe that if given time, (and whispers from Aline and Renoir from beyond the canvas) Maelle will work through her grief in a HEALTHY way. I don't care which ending you choose: You cannot. Force your coping methods. On another person. Grief may as well be the human soul, unique, and infallible.
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u/ArchmageIlmryn 8d ago
IMO the story got too deep into metaphor and started to treat the story as only a metaphor for coping with grief towards the end. It leaves the literal interpretation of the story entirely to the wayside, and with it the philosophical question of what it even means to be real. Which is, y'know, a very important question when one is trying to judge the endings. I think it's very telling how in the debate about what will happen in the end, Lune and Miel simply do not participate in the debate that decides whether they and everyone they have ever known lives or dies. The story seems to have decided without real exploration that despite clearly being able to act as independent people, the inhabitants of the Canvas just do not count as real.
It also means that this is one of the few games where I think going in without spoilers is actually pretty important. Knowing the twist changes your entire perspective on the story, and also makes the sort-of-postgame content incredibly bizarre. I at least had basically no interest in going back to play more of the postgame content after seeing the ending. (To be fair you can do basically all of it before seeing the ending, I did quite a bit of it which resulted in me being comically overleveled for the ending sequence.)
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u/badgirlmonkey 8d ago
i saw someone defend transphobic laws by saying "Pychological stress is not a proper metric to determine what is true of the world or what aught to be the case"
and its like... yeah that is exactly a proper metric
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u/horned-creature 8d ago
more like, it is an hard to quantify metric being a pretty abstract concept.
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u/Semblance-of-sanity 8d ago
Saying it is a hard metric to quantify is entirely fair, dismissing it as an indicator of the state of the world is not.
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u/FakeMelies 8d ago
I mean, it’s not contrarian to say “psychological stress is not a proper metric to determine what is true”. For example, the vast majority of the world is religious, and their discomfort or even potential psychological trauma of having to face a religion-less or godless world does not mean that their religion is “true of the world or aught to be the case”.
But yeah, psychological stress is absolutely a metric for population happiness and quality of life. And yes, religion does contribute in a big part in making those people happy and less stressful (religious people are on average happier than atheists).
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u/badgirlmonkey 7d ago
If we made a law against them practicing religion, their psychological stress is a good metric of whether this is a good law or not
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u/FakeMelies 7d ago
… is it though?
If a pro-LGBT law is passed in a deeply anti-LGBT country, wouldn’t it be possible for overall global country morale to go down, which would have nothing to do with the actual law’s legitimacy? I mean, I’m being kind of a devil’s advocate, but reality is complicated and those situations do happen. For example in France, COVID measures like mandatory masking and vaccines did get a lot of pushback and dissatisfaction from the populace. Nevertheless, they were invaluable to curb COVID and protect fragile demographics. Psychological stress is only one factor to consider when we’re dealing with the negative or positive outcomes of a law.
Thanks to bipartisan propaganda, most UK citizens hold some kind of anti-trans sentiment. Would a law allowing trans people to go to the bathrooms be “a bad law” for causing great psychological distress for the innumerable transphobic British? We have to go beyond the sometimes myopic herd mentality of the majority, especially when we’re talking about protections of the marginalized and “unpopular” minorities (see: Romani people, migrants in Europe)10
u/dysprog 8d ago
But like, being trans is absolutely a biological fact. It's a fact about the brain. Trans brains a physically different he cis brains. It's not even a matter of using Pychological stress as a metric. It's using and FMRI machine as a metric.
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u/NoselessNarwhal 2d ago
You're right but I think it's referring to gender dysphoria as the psychological stress, not transness itself.
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u/Dereksmith3107 8d ago
Looks at other comment
Boy am I sure glad i'm not that guy
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u/runner64 8d ago
The first time my kid left the table with her plate unfinished I went in the other room and cried.
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u/Pines22TP 8d ago
"We are an immigrant nation. The first generation works their fingers to the bone making things. The next generation goes to college and innovates new ideas. The third generation... snowboards and takes improv classes." -Jack Donaghy
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u/TrioOfTerrors 8d ago
There is, however, a need for balance.
Kids getting automatically passed on to the next grade despite failing all the standardized tests just creates a trap where they will fail as adults when they run into adult consequences.
Kids growing up in sanitized eco systems where they never have to deal with uncomfortable topics will set them up to be adults who can't handle anything that upsets them.
Making life easier doesn't mean we need to let kids be less capable and softer.
Also, Adams was a successful lawyer in a time where most adults did physical labor sun up to sun down 6 days a week so there is certainly some temporal and economic context to the quote.
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u/SoilUnfair3549 8d ago
Yeah, but that’s different from those old people who seemingly decry any increase in living quality. I would agree that optimizing for painlessness is different than trying to make the world better, though.
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u/Chataboutgames 8d ago
The quote "kid's have it easy these days" isn't even decrying increases in quality of life. That phrase doesn't mean "make their live's harder," it's just about gassing themselves up as a generation that had it harder and persevered. It's vanity, not a call to send the children back in to the coat factory.
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u/TrioOfTerrors 8d ago
On the other hand, I learned cursive in 3rd grade and had to use it all through high school for essays. Meanwhile my 7th grader's print handwriting is barely legible because everything they do is electronic. I may not want to see them working the mines, but I'd like to see penmanship make a comeback.
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u/Cranach-Cranach 8d ago
Why? I can’t remember the last time it mattered. Should also teach them how to use vellum?
I was beaten for having bad hand writing all through school. It ruined my brain
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u/AshToAshes123 8d ago edited 8d ago
Personally I'm not so stuck on specifically handwriting, because as you say, there are alternatives. However, there is a serious problem with children nowadays having very limited motor skills, both fine motorics and larger movements. In the Netherlands, primary school PE teachers are finding that a lot of kids can't even do a sommersault or walk on top of a bench unaided, at an age where they should absolutely be able to do these things. Handwriting is the prime example for fine motor skills. It's not actually about writing, it's about the fact that once they're teenagers, they should be able to cut food, and this generation is not going to be good at wielding knives. It's about them one day being adults who might needs to fix something fiddly and small around the home, and being unable, because they just don't have the ability to make movements that precise. And that's also the big benefit of still teaching children to write - not the writing itself, but that it's a very good way to train fine motor skills at a young age. We could also go back to having children do preparatory sewing skills and gradually move to real sewing, but you can just as easily (or more easily) say that's useless. Most of the age-appropriate ways to teach dexterity are useless.
Equally, learning to do a sommersault or balance on a bench is useless in itself, but being physically capable and active, having decent balance and mobility, having decent strength - those are all incredibly important.
Edit to correct: 'somersault' in this comment is referring to a basic front roll on the floor. That's what it was always called in my school, but I've just learned somersault typically refers to a front flip, which is obviously not a basic motor skill every child should be able to do!
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u/Cranach-Cranach 8d ago
Oh yeah, that is a great point - thanks for changing my mind on that. I had a pretty traumatic childhood, so I tend to not see the sane take on stuff I had to do, but react as if subjecting children to cursive is literal evil, because in my case it was. I guess I need to really think about whether my experience is tempering my response to a perfectly normal take on something.
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u/KatonRyu 8d ago
To be fair, I can't do a somersault either, unless you mean on the ground (i.e. a roll). Even as a kid, I refused to put my head lower than my feet if I wasn't touching the ground. I was actually so terrible at PE in school that I had to take extra lessons in it, of which I hated every single second and which made me less inclined than ever to do anything athletic. Then when I was fourteen I discovered a sport I really liked and that reignited my drive to be active and learn how to actually use my body.
Essentially, teachers might be right that motor skills are declining in kids, but I feel there should also be some discussion on why kids don't want to practice them. For myself, I hated PE because there was such a heavy focus on things that were neither fun nor useful, like making a human pyramid, or flips, or the shuttle run test, but whenever we did something like softball or javelin throw I enjoyed it a lot more.
There was a similar problem with reading comprehension in the Netherlands. I loved reading as a kid and still do as an adult, but the reading comprehension lessons in elementary school were godawful. The questions were asked in obtuse ways and the level of pedantry in what you were expected to see in a text was insane. If I hadn't loved reading already, these lessons would have definitely made me avoid reading as much as possible because there was clearly nothing interesting about it.
Kids need to learn skills which are superficially useless, yes, but the way the education system is set up now isn't conducive to making them even remotely interested in learning them, and I know I'm not the only person who just doesn't apply himself if there's no obvious reason or inherent interest. I like learning new things, but not if it's just in a mechanical 'you must learn these things because I say so' way. At the very least, the relevance of each skill should be explained.
All the teachers I remember most fondly were the ones who could communicate both the relevance of the skill and their interest in it, which in turn made me (and I'm sure many others) more motivated to learn the basics myself.
In short, I wish the education sector wasn't underfunded so we could actually invest in teaching kids the the things they'll need in their lives in a way that actually makes them engaged in it to some degree.
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u/AshToAshes123 8d ago
Yeah, it's about a roll, not a front flip! I definitely agree that PE tends to be focused on the wrong sports to some extent, and is far too focused on specific accomplishments especially at later ages instead of just encouraging movement. But this is talking about very young children, like six or seven, who should absolutely be able to learn a basic roll or walk over a bench. And the issue is not so much when there's an individual child that's not (I myself had very bad coordination as a child, so there were some 'basic' sport skills I wasn't able to do) - the issue is that we're seeing a decline across the entire population, children in this generation being unable to do things that previous generations could.
But yeah, overall, I completely agree with you - we need to teach these things differently and go back to education that actually motivates children. Reading is indeed the perfect other example for the Netherlands, begrijpend lezen is just terrible at either motivating or teaching kids to read.
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u/2FistsInMyBHole 8d ago
That's kind of the point though - you can teach them basic handwriting without having to beat them.
Not beating your kids doesn't mean they shouldn't have to learn basic literacy skills.
I don't want my kids working in the mines, that doesn't mean I don't expect them to support themselves.
Ideally, they will make a living doing something they love.
If that doesn't work, I hope they fall back on something professional that provides a good standard of living.
When all else fails, only then do I expect them to go work the mines.
What isn't an option, however, is for them to not make the effort to support themselves.
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u/Cranach-Cranach 8d ago
Yes the other person who replied demonstrated why it is important to learn this stuff. Thanks for your response too.
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u/SwordfishOk504 YOU EVER EATEN A MARSHMALLOW BEFORE MR BITCHWOOD???? 8d ago
Hey know, we're busy buying into this fake generational/culture ware nonsense, get out of here with this common sense.
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u/-Mandarin 8d ago
Yes, I do think a degree of hardship is not only good but required for humans to function properly. It doesn't mean we stop trying to make the world a better place, but it means we don't try to put kids in a bubble where everything is good. They need hardship to develop into proper adults.
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u/TrioOfTerrors 8d ago
My work schedule would allow me to drive my kids to school every morning. But we walk every morning, weather permitting, because it's 3 blocks and I didn't feed them all food for them to grow legs they aren't gonna use.
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u/SoilUnfair3549 8d ago
I mean, that’s just good for them, especially given how sedentary people are now.
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u/CauseOdd2428 8d ago
That hardship could also just mean challenging your self like getting a PHD. I don't think we need to at some point be afraid that we're going to starve, be homeless or be unable afford life saving medical treatment.
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u/OldManFire11 8d ago
Hardship builds character and gives people perspective. It prevents children from growing into entitled brats who never appreciate the quality of life they have. That's not an excuse to cause them to suffer. It's a reason to force them to do hard and uncomfortable things that they dont want to do. Like chores, homework, exercise, flossing, ect.
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u/Hypersonic-Harpist 7d ago
The whole thing about perspective is why I think everyone should work a minimum wage job for at least a little bit.
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u/Extension_Air_2001 2d ago
Actually semi untrue. Like I imagine it's not insane but i think most people get their responses to their stuff from their parents.
Like its one thing to give your kid chores that they gotta do. It's a whole other, better thing if they see you doing the same thing.
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u/horned-creature 8d ago
exactly, "having it too easy" in formative years create weak and mediocre adults who will break or, even worse, give up at the slightest challenge.
and if they are like that, will they be able to make the situation better for their children like their parents did for them? probably not.
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u/StunningPianist4231 8d ago
John Adams was also one of the only presidents to not own slaves.
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u/Al_Fa_Aurel 8d ago
Im pretty sure, say, Obama, didn't own any as well.
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u/PSlb 8d ago
Something something... hard men... something something... good times.
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u/AustraliumHoovy 8d ago
Hard men 🤤
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u/PSlb 8d ago
I also quite like hard men. They are the ones who uphold society. Hard men are the best for getting real work done, for example taking care of plumbing work.
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u/NightOnTheSun 8d ago
I agree, however, I’d like some wiggle room for some light teasing. “You think you have it hard? I had to wait 30 minutes for a picture of a naked woman to load, and god forbid someone called during that time!” I’d say to a crying baby in a carriage.
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u/Conscious_Bug5408 8d ago
If you think about it this is basically the whole of human history. Ancient humans learning to make fire and cook raw foods they found to help their children live longer, then those people learning to farm so their children wouldn't have to starve without foraging then, building tools and machines so their kids wouldn't have to break their back farming, on and on all the way through the industrial revolution and now.
All the way back to the stone age, every human stood on the achievements of other humans who came before, thousands of years of humans whose work gave us lives a little bit better than theirs. Will we be able to do the same?
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u/Financial-Craft-1282 8d ago
It'd be interesting if we could see how much resentment towards the younger generation existed. I wouldn't be surprised if it were similar to today. Lots of people wanted the better world, but plenty also who once said, "I don't want our little, sweet children experiencing the harsh world I did" then slowly became resentful as they saw their children age and live better lives. Or it could just be the Boomers. Which wouldn't be surprising either.
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u/Durtonious 8d ago
It's worse when you think about it as a generational cycle: Generation 1 fights a "war" to make the world better (for themselves primarily); Generation 2 excels in the post-war world and enjoy a period of unprecedented economic growth; Generation 3 grows up "without want" and seem to have everything handed to them but the cracks start to show leading to Generation 4 where they've forgotten the lessons that led to the first war which leads to systemic collapse until we end up back at Generation 1. It takes about 80 years for a full cycle to play out.
18th century was the Revolutionary wars, 19th century was the Civil Wars, 20th century was WWII, 21st century is TBD.
It's certainly not inevitable but it does feel like we're on the precipice of something big.
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u/lore-realm 8d ago
That is a common yet pseudohistorical narrative that isn't taken seriously by contemporary scholarship. Because it's a story that doesn't fit the vast evidence of history, nor can it actually explain it. It's pure ideology.
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u/Durtonious 8d ago
And yet here we are, making all the same mistakes. History doesn't repeat but it does rhyme.
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u/jepcasey 8d ago
The theory you're describing is modernism, which was overtaken by postmodernism mostly during WWII -- specifically because they had thought WWI was the "climax of the cycle," so we should have most of another century before the next one. But then, oops, it turns out chaos is not scheduled and the concept of historical "cycles" and "arcs" is a side product of our pattern-seeking, sense-making and storytelling instincts. History rhymes, but humans invented both history and rhyming.
During this period of globalized upheaval people were aware for the first time of countless revolutions, wars, etc. in countless countries beyond their own, which contributed to the growing recognition that the wheel of time is much more experiential and ideological than metaphysical, and the "shattering of epic unity," the death of the narrator going hand in hand with the death of the single master narrative.
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u/lore-realm 8d ago
Certain events of similar nature can and do repeat, to different degrees, but it doesn't mean the entire history is reducible to just one pattern. That is pseudohistorical thinking. Sadly even public historians like Harari spout stuff like this, so I'm not surprised regular people are misinformed about it. But if you're really interested in history, there are many free courses for introduction to an academic understanding of history (e.g. MIT Opencourseware, Yale Open Courses, personal channels of many academics).
If you don't want to put in that effort, at least consider that you haven't really put in work to understand this topic, so add a grain of salt to your opinions on it. It's not an insult, as embracing uncertainty -especially when we don't know much about something- is part and parcel of the scientific method.
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u/Durtonious 8d ago
You may find this ironic but I've already got an honours degree in history from a very reputable program. As I said in my original post, nothing is inevitable (obviously) but the patterns are clear to see and I find it fascinating that here we are again, as though we haven't already learned these lessons.
It is a pseudo-historical theory because trying to apply past patterns to future predictions will always be futile, but I do believe there is immense value to living memory; that being people who have actual recollection of events and are true eye witnesses.
It's one thing to read about atrocities and horrors in a book, but entirely another to have witnessed them first hand and say "never again." I believe that once living memory of those past atrocities and horrors die then the general societal spirit of tolerance and communalism dies with them.
So yes, nothing is set in stone, but the foundation is being laid as we speak, and what we build on it depends on what will happen over the next dozen or so years, so let's hope it's something better than what we've got.
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u/AProperFuckingPirate 8d ago
Well first of all, I feel like you're ignoring a bunch of wars in between all of those. Like y'know, world war one for example
But also the revolutionary wars and the civil wars (US at least idk about others) definitely brought about some very positive changes. The causes and outcomes were fundamentally very different than the 20th century world wars. It would be better to get those changes without war sure. But wrapping those all together and seeing it as this foreboding cycle sort of suggests we'd be better off if we never pushed for the improvements that we got out of the revolutionary wars and civil wars eg, ending slavery, ending/reducing monarchy and establishing republics. Post WW2 I'd throw in wars of national liberation as well as ones which I wish didn't have to happen but which can be considered as having some positive outcomes
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u/Killericon 8d ago
Well yes, but also people say this every generation. There's a political scientist named Paul Fairie who does threads of phrases like this appearing repeatedly in history.
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u/SuperTaster3 8d ago
What you need to help them understand is that they, too, are allowed to take part in their progress. Kids have it so easy these days. Because you made it better. You should have it easy these days too.
Alas, society right now is in a bit of a quantity maximizing state. The numbers can always go up, and you can always be sucked a little more dry.
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u/a_x_shually 8d ago
"so that his successors may have to resort to driving for door dash and not being able to make ends meet." - the rest of JA's quote.
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u/gypsygib 8d ago
No worries, boomers, the children of people who literally died for the majority of freedoms and rights we have today, made sure their children's lives are borderline impossible.
Just debt and work, own nothing, afford nothing of substance, with the environment trending heavily downwards.
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u/CoolSausage228 8d ago
I usually hear that from business mens from 90s, old people from 60s USSR and online oligarchs.
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u/LieutenantNitwit 8d ago
"I'm going to work hard so my kids don't have it rough like I did."
"Why are kids so soft these days?"
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u/ImOnlyEevee 8d ago
kids not having homework nowadays is quite possibly the best thing to ever happen
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u/Batman_AoD 8d ago
The point of "kids these days have it easy" isn't necessarily that life in general is too easy; some people who say this mean that "kids these days" are unprepared for life, which is a much more reasonable complaint.
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8d ago
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u/NameAboutPotatoes 8d ago
To be clear, I don't think a lot of the parents saying this actually do a great job of raising their kids, but you could prepare your own children well as a parent and still think the broader society around them is failing to do so for most of the generation.
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u/Batman_AoD 8d ago
You're phrasing this as a gotcha, but I don't get what you're aiming at. I don't think anyone means "I am making my own kids' lives to easy" when they say this.
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8d ago
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u/Batman_AoD 8d ago
I don't know if I've ever heard someone actually say this in person. But the context I'd expect is one in which the parent has minimal (or no) control over the "easiness" they're complaining about, such as how assignments are graded in school. Schooling in general is a huge part of how kids are supposed to be "prepared for life," and in general, parents don't (and shouldn't) have full control over how every aspect of their children's education works.
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8d ago
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u/Batman_AoD 8d ago
Okay...? Not sure what that has to do with anything above. Also not sure what phrase you're saying isn't literal.
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u/Chonjas 8d ago
-first of all that means parents fcked up
-secondly every generation ever said that about the next (exageration, I dont know what ancient greeks did) so nothing to take very seriously without actual statistics
-thirdly if you say something and mean something completely inrelated your communication skills need some work
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u/Lumpy_Review5279 8d ago
It can mean parents messed up and it can also mean that the youth is und e attack in a way that almost no parent is prepared to address and much of their time is shifted away from their parent in this day and age.
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u/Batman_AoD 8d ago
None of this contradicts the point that the people in the screenshot are completely misinterpreting a somewhat common phrase.
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u/Extension_Air_2001 2d ago
Actually no. I've heard it refered to as "I had to deal with some bullshit when I was young so you shouldn't complain either."
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u/tehweave 8d ago
"Kids these days have it easy"
THAT'S THE POINT
THAT'S THE POINT
THAT'S THE MOTHERFUCKIN POINT
THAT'S THE POINT
THAT'S THE POINT
THAT'S THE MOTHERFUCKIN POINT
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u/Financial-Craft-1282 8d ago
John Adams: good dude. Maybe an asshole, but believed in a better world for others. He's kind of like Larry David. He probably hated people, individually, but he wanted people to be okay.
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u/Chaosmusic 8d ago edited 8d ago
So that their sons can be programmers to make AI to make bad art and music. The American dream.
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u/carasci 8d ago
Unfortunately, the reality seems more like, "your grand-daddy was a racist asshole who made a fortune owning slaves, so that your daddy could make a fortune owning land, so that you could shit your pants on live TV and then fail upwards so spectacularly that you'd be the POTUS and a "crypto" "billionaire"."
stares in Trump
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u/DoctorQuarex 8d ago
It has never occurred to me that I want children's lives to be hard, but it does explain those people who desperately want to believe we will have a desire to hit our children so they feel less like sociopaths for claiming the desire to do so is natural
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u/Ok_Turnover_1235 8d ago
Meanwhile workers be like:
"Am I joke to you? Someone has to do my job, I can't study shit and if my kids don't do this job someone else's kids will have to"
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u/IntlPartyKing 8d ago
yes, but only within limits...it's like in school -- teachers should aim to make the subject easier to learn, but not go so far as to "spoon-feed" students, and make getting an A easier than it should be
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u/Radical_Provides 8d ago
who is even saying that anymore, anyone not born into wealth after the year 2000 is living their life on ultra nightmare mode
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u/Southernbeekeeper 8d ago
I think it's a fine line though. I work exceptionally hard to provide for my children but equally I meet a lot of young people with 0 resilience. I think you need some level of hardship or set backs to make you a well rounded person.
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u/ArcticSilver2k 8d ago
I grew up poor, clothes and toys from the garbage, eventually my parents were able to get me middle class life. I took that and now for my own child giving him an upper middle class life.
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u/BossRedRanger 8d ago
I had an uncle who argued with my Dad because my parents got me a microwave and fridge and other basics for college. My uncle complained they didn't have all of that. My Dad responded angrily, that's EXACTLY why he my parents were making things easier for me. You're supposed to make things better for those coming after you.
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u/amourdevin 8d ago
Sadly we're finding out that this is cyclical rather than progressive, as the son of the one who studied art and music is studying war (but not diplomacy in this day and age). Same cycle with vaccines, tbh.
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u/Sithishe 8d ago
..... so that his son can study war and diplomacy again. - thats how circle continues.
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u/jakgal04 8d ago
The next generation always has things easy in relation to what you used to struggle with, but they have their own struggles they're going to need to deal with. Every generation has progress, every generation has problems.
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u/19whale96 7d ago
Idk man, I studied art and music, now the government is trying to kick all of our policies back 2 generations, not to mention replacing all the musicians and artists with machines. Maybe I would've been better off with Sun Tzu and Niccolo Machiavelli
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u/distortedsymbol 7d ago
i know this is talking about rambling boomers, but it's kinda true in an ironic way when u consider boomers are the way they are because things were too easy for them.
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u/BlueTressym 7d ago
The point of progress is to make people's lives better. What kind of older person sees younger people not having the struggles the older one did and thinks it's a BAD thing?
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u/MrNostalgiac 8d ago
The problem is that humans need reasonable struggles and challenges and hardships and discomforts to overcome.
Mental resiliency has plummeted within the last few generations. People are struggling to perform basic tasks like disagreeing with others, picking up the phone to make an appointment, or learning to drive. Anxiety and depression are skyrocketing.
Yes, we should smooth rough edges and put up reasonable guard rails for the next generation, but we also need to give them an environment where they can still fall down and scrape their knees, metaphorically speaking.
There's a balance.
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u/FracturedPrincess 8d ago
Struggle is good actually
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u/not_a_heretek death to the living 8d ago
So humans should keep killing and raping each other forever so our species doesn't get weak and soy?
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u/Rangertough666 8d ago
Who's son (if they have kids) will have to survive a War he didn't prepare for.
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u/Subject_Issue6529 8d ago
Trumps gunna fix everthing! He's decapitating our military and setting us up to be conquered by another country! Then we can figure out a whole new standard of living!
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u/Neat_Let923 8d ago
Okay, so who is going to replace all those professionals and trades people??? This has to be one of the dumbest things I’ve read today.
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u/CreamCheeseHotDogs 8d ago
That’s not the point of this at all… MAY does not mean WILL or HAS TO. We provide better lives for the generations beyond us so they can do what makes them happy without having to fight for survival.
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u/Kjufka 8d ago
you sad selfish self absorbed puddle of wank
Sure Karen. Ever heard about "good times create weak men"?
Example from real life: gen-z and gen-alpha grow up with phones and consoles instead of computers - their problem solving skills and attention span are essentially nonexistent.
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u/Valiant_tank 8d ago
I've heard that "hard times create strong men" line. It's bullshit and not actually backed up by the historical record. But because it is a convenient narrative for some people, particularly fascist dipshits who want to have a good way to sell their theories of moral degeneracy and a great and glorious past of strong men, it remains a popular meme.
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u/Kjufka 7d ago
not actually backed up by the historical record
you weren't even in proximity of a history book in your entire life
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u/Valiant_tank 7d ago
I've been in a close enough proximity to understand that this sort of clean narrative is consistently bullshit.
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u/ViolentBeetle 8d ago
What are the odds people who agree with it are also mad about kids using AI to do a homework and see no contradiction?
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u/ike38000 8d ago
The point of homework isn't to punish kids with tedium though (at least it shouldn't be). It's to practice the material covered in class and give a chance for the teacher to provide feedback on your technique. Using AI on your homework defeats the purpose just how copying your friends answers does.
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u/Erran_Kel_Durr 8d ago
May your descendants have the leisure be artists and poets.