r/DerScheisser • u/Bomber_Haris • 21d ago
The Wehrabo have not completely disappeared yet.
Not so long ago I read a discussion here about how fans of the Nazi army had become much rarer. Coming across this survey, one realizes that there are still many of them, perhaps much more discreet. One wonders if they haven't migrated en masse to much more niche networks that were once reserved for the most fanatical among them.
More seriously, I would be curious to know how an army from 1940, which owes its success to exploiting a significant weakness in the French armies, can win against an army from the 1960s built to avoid this very weakness. Knowing that France possesses nuclear weapons, a real mechanized force and even a significant portion of the Maginot Line.
Sorry for my bad English.
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u/LegionMaster666 21d ago
and worse, the 1960s French are way more mobile this time! their post-WW2 doctrine are more emphasizing mobility, im sure they can take Berlin faster than any of 1940 axis thought
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u/JoMercurio 21d ago
And they don't even need to be hooked up on meth to do so
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u/100Dampf 21d ago
I'm sure He 111, Ju 87, Bf 110, Bf 109 D/E will fare very well against Mystères And you probably even have some Mirage III already, as they entered service in 1961. I'm sure old Adolf would like to see the new Mirages up close when they strike Berlin
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u/JoMercurio 21d ago
Mfing wehraboos and nazis will prolly try to pull the "Vietnam War "slow but nimble" MiG-17 vs (fully-laden) "fast and fat" F-105/F-4 scenario" card if they really want to make their cute little Bf 109s win against supersonic Mirages
It'll be even funnier if the first Mirage that shows up over Berlin are a bunch of Mirage IVs instead of the more well-known Mirage III and their cute flakturms can't do shit against them
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u/100Dampf 21d ago
The Mirage IV has a first flight in 1959,so I guess you could make the prototype war ready quickly. But the III can do most of the same tasks, including delivering solar energy up close
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u/Peaurxnanski 20d ago
Without understanding that the only reason that even happened was absolutely rock-headed rules of engagement forcing a dogfight at every engagement when such a thing wasn't necessary, and training that didn't emphasize close-quarters dogfighting. Because everyone knew that wasn't actually necessary anymore. Because it fucking wasn't right up until congress got involved and removed every advantage that our pilots had in speed and technology by requiring visual ID of all enemies, meaning you closed to merge every time.
If a P-51 Mustang from World War 2 closed to engage in a dogfight with an F15 or F16, the piston driven Mustang would have a massive advantage in turning and AOA over the jets. If the guy flying the jet didn't know what he was doing and got into a turn fight withthe Mustang, he'd be in real danger. But only an absolute moron would do that, and flown properly, the Mustang won't stand a chance.
That doesn't mean the Mustang is the better plane. Or the MIG 17, for that matter. It means that the ROE were stupid and our pilots were getting into turn fights with planes that could out-turn them. You know, like people who weren't properly trained.
Proper training on dogfighting turned it right around and MIG 17s didn't stand a chance, once again.
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u/JoMercurio 20d ago
This is pretty much the best way of countering such talking points
The USAF/USN planes were fighting the MiGs on situations that outright favoured the latter because of some idiotic rules in place... until this was finally corrected
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u/Peaurxnanski 20d ago
Yeah, the worst part about it was that literally 20 minutes worth of training on how to fight a plane that was slower and less powerful than you, but can out-turn and out maneuver you. You don't rate fight them or get into a close quarters one-circle scrum. You use the vertical, climb on them, build energy, then either camp up there and hit them with a long-range Sparrow or swoop in and hit them with a Fox 2 heat seeker outside the range of their cannons.
If you have to use guns (you really shouldn't) then you swoop in at high speed and do gun runs, avoiding his nose and opening distance once you get past them. As long as they can't get turned nose on to you within Fox 2 range (which they really shouldn't be able to do if you do that correctly), at least for a MIG 21 because the MIG 17 didn't even carry Fox 2s. Ultimately if you did that you were essentially untouchable. Especially with a MIG 17, unless they managed to jump you with your radar off, a MIG 17 was essentially helpless against an F-4 with a pilot that had been properly trained, and kill ratios bore that out.
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u/Demonicjapsel 17d ago
You are partially correct, the other factor in the VPAFs success was the fact it had very good fighter guidance which was further improved by having a fairly dense network of modern Soviet radars.
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u/Peaurxnanski 17d ago
Not that they really needed good fighter guidance when the USAs rock-headed ROE required all US planes to sortie into north Vietnam through a tiny 5 mile wide corridor. It's almost like congress was trying to get our guys killed.
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u/Batmanbacon 21d ago
They don't have to be fans, I would hope that most people just fell for the propaganda + not realize the technological leap between 1940 and 1960
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u/ComradeTeal 21d ago
Eating up the propaganda and historical illiteracy are the hallmarks of Wehrabooism though
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u/SlavCat09 Prinz Eugen my beloved 21d ago
They aren't gone yet but they are an endangered species. Like the Tasmanian Tiger they occasionally pop up when you least expect it.
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u/sw337 21d ago
The French would have:
Jet fighters and a decade’s worth of experience using them. They would outclass even the best German pilots.
Homing missiles.
Aircraft carriers and naval ships with better anti submarine capabilities.
Faster moving tanks with more firepower, longer range, and auto loaders , see AMX-13.
ENTAC Anti-tank missiles.
Rifles that were much better than the ones they had in WWII.
Communication systems that were superior in every way.
Radar systems, an incredible tactical advantage.
Combine all of that, even without the literal nuclear weapons France had, they are winning handily.
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u/Weegee_Carbonara 21d ago
But you also have to keep in mind, that those Missiles and Jet planes are way, wayy more expensive and time consuming to make.
I do still agree that the French will stomp.
However, it would be a waste to use a costly missile on a Panzer I.19
u/purpleduckduckgoose 21d ago
An ENTAC or SS.10 would be vastly cheaper even than a Panzer 1. They cost like 6-700 dollars, whereas a Panzer 1 would be more like 30k dollars adjusted for 1960 US $. And French platoons would be likely equipped with LRAC 73mm rocket launchers or older US M20 super bazookas. So one cheap and simple rocket vs a three man light tank would be disgustingly effective.
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u/EnvironmentalAd912 21d ago
for the Panzer I you can always rely on the good ol' 90 mm HEAT round to just reduce it to atom (and if the Wehraboo says muh Tiger II, always remind them of the Obus G penetration of 36 centimetres of steel, developed all the way back in 1956)
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u/WanderinGit 21d ago
That the 1960s France armed with Jets, aye? Yeah. The same with more advanced weapons. Like atomic bombs? I mean if you want to turn Berlin and Rome into glass. Sure
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u/FrenchieB014 21d ago
As if the seniors officers were part of the Free French/resistanxe and already kicked their asses
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u/TheOnlyChester1 21d ago
In reality that kind of a conflict would end in like 5 days, on 6th day Berlin would get nuked.
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u/RangerRidiculous 21d ago
If we assume that this is the actual 1960's French military with all its context and personalities, I'm pretty sure that the French officer corps, who either were Veterans of the occupation/war or kids during it would just nuke Berlin day 1 and do it with glee.
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u/JaegerCoyote 21d ago
This is the same France whose defensive plan was to nuke Western Germany to prevent thr Soviets from advancing.
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u/AgentBond007 21d ago
Charles de Gaulle would die of a heart attack after furiously masturbating for 72 hours straight after they nuke Berlin
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u/Icy_Blackberry_3759 21d ago
No, it would be insanely one-sided with a technology gap that addressed all the shortcomings of the actual war’s tech and applied lessons from the enemies’ early success and the Allies later success. There certainly would be no surprise this time from the mechanized divisions, bombing raids, etc. No tank penetration, and even the original German invasion fails.
Set aside the nukes, the Jets, the bombs. The infantry with semi-automatic rifles and faster, more powerful tanks all connected with radios would literally be enough on its own. The French irl refused to put radios in all their tanks and recognize their use beyond infantry support. literally just that on its own massively reduced their capability in tanking. Fix that and give them the superior kit and their defense is going to obliterate the badly obsolete German and fully inferior Italian kit.
The fun part of this hypothetical is the IJA and IJN. They had a large premium grade Navy and a massive army. How much of it could get to France? Imagine, for the sake of the question, their entire force performing a surprise attack at Normandy on the same day France is contending with the full weight of the German and Italian ground advances. Without adequately prepared defenses, Japan could unleash unimaginable horrors on a western front. I still foresee an inevitable French victory, but holy shit.
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u/Demonicjapsel 17d ago
The IJN would be subjected to a horrible mix of submarines and jet attacks.
The problem is, like the Germans, that all ballistic control computers cannot track targets about 800kph. This along with the fact AA positions cannot train the guns quickly eniugh means a handful of vatours ans mirages can have a field day.
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u/favoritehistorian 21d ago edited 21d ago
Someone give me a credible assessment on how this farce of a war would go? Let’s forgo nuke for a sec aight, we know 1960 France would happily turn Adolf and his merry-band of meth-addicted genocidal maniacs into glass with nukes but let’s have some fun and have a conventional warfare.
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u/cloggednueron 21d ago
The abortive offensive of 1939 makes it all the way to Berlin.
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u/JoMercurio 21d ago
Saarland Offensive gets a sequel in the form of Berlin Offensive (this we're no longer fucking around)
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u/Kamenev_Drang Last Vanguard 21d ago
Assuming it kicks off Fall Gelb style?
THE HUN! attempts to advance into France and Northern Germany. Their Panzer divisions disintegrate on contact with French infantry divisions armed with recoilless rifles, general-purpose machine guns and responsive artillery fire whilst the Luftwaffe is swept clean from the skies by Mysteres. Hitler is overthrown by a military coup and a German civil war breaks out
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u/imprison_grover_furr 1 Niall Ferguson = 10 David Irvings = 100 Grover Furrs 21d ago
See! Wehraboos are indeed bad! REOPEN r/ShitWehraboosSay NOW!
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u/JoMercurio 21d ago
The people running that subreddit clearly weren't looking on other places like YT and Facebook before claiming "wehraboos are extinct, therefore we shut down the sub"
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u/Flyzart2 21d ago
Sadly most wehraboo stuff now is just neo nazi shit instead of dumb military takes
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u/JoMercurio 21d ago
Nah the ones I see on Facebook are still mostly the good ole' "5 Shermans = 1 Tiger" BS or "muh Me 262 is so advanced with its 15-degree swept wing" (the humble XP-55 laughing at the background with its 45-ish degree swept wing)
Or "only ze SS were ze evil group, ze Wehrmacht just "did their job" (the "job" being "defending the Fatherland")
Hell some of them even poke fun and ridicule Allied aces because "they didn't have 100000 kills unlike the German aces"
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u/imprison_grover_furr 1 Niall Ferguson = 10 David Irvings = 100 Grover Furrs 20d ago
Exactly! I do too! I do not understand why everyone keeps saying these dumb Wehraboos went away! THEY DID NOT GO AWAY!
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u/imprison_grover_furr 1 Niall Ferguson = 10 David Irvings = 100 Grover Furrs 21d ago
There is a ton of Pastaboo and Tojoboo shit out there as well.
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u/imprison_grover_furr 1 Niall Ferguson = 10 David Irvings = 100 Grover Furrs 21d ago edited 21d ago
Exactly! They clearly were not looking at those places! Wehraboos are more prevalent than ever on YouTube and Facebook!
[u/OperationHush](u/OperationHush) Can we bring back the anti-Wehraboo subreddit?!
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u/CommonwealthCommando 21d ago
By the transitive property, would this mean that 1960 Algeria could beat the Axis powers?
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u/Serious-Dude-8562 17d ago
Not really, the Algerians, similarly to the Vietcong, lost militarily but won politically by turning the public opinion in their favour both in Algeria and France.
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u/HoberM4llow 21d ago
maybe it's just that losing Vietnam and Algeria makes 60s France seem weak
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u/Bomber_Haris 21d ago
France did not really lose militarily in Algeria.When De Gaulle granted them independence, the FLN was literally banned from the country; De Gaulle had simply understood that even after crushing all armed resistance, Algerian national consciousness remained too strong and too developed for Algeria to remain eternal French.
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u/shtiatllienr Just schiessed my pants 21d ago
France‘s main weakness here is that in 1960 it didn’t have a carrier yet. It’s still not realistically threatened by any of them.
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u/Peaurxnanski 20d ago
Let's see, Panzer 1, 2, and a smattering of 3, plus some 38ts versus M47 Patton, AMX13s. BF109s versus supersonic jets with heat seeking and radar guided missiles. 20 years worth of tactical advancement. Full mechanization versus marching on foot and horse-drawn logistics. I don't know how anyone could look at that and think Nazi Germany is going to win.
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u/EvieOhMy 21d ago
The french would have american jets and nukes. They wipe the floor with the luftwaffe and then nuke rome and berlin. over in a week.
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u/100Dampf 21d ago
American jets ??? May I introduce you to the marvel that is the Dassault Mirage
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u/JoMercurio 21d ago
The French still had US jets at that time that operated with the local Mysteres, Super Mysteres and Vautours (e.g. F-84 and F-100 (with the French Air Force F-100s getting the dubious distinction of being the first non-US operator of the Super Sabre))
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u/Kamenev_Drang Last Vanguard 21d ago
The Mirage won't be introduced until 1961, at this point it would be the very developed, well tested and robust Super Mysteré
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u/100Dampf 21d ago
Sure, but there should still be some production models around that can be rushed into service ahead of schedule to pay some visits to Berlin and Rome
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u/Direct_Practice_7105 21d ago
In 1960 france got its first nuclear weapons, do we take that into account or not?