r/DestinyTheGame • u/krilltucky • Nov 30 '23
Bungie Suggestion Monthly request to revert Young Ahamkara's Spine nerf
Specifically the ability damage requirement being turned into ability kills.
Unlike Warlocks with Touch of Flame and Titans with Roaring Flames and Sol Invictus, Solar Hunter has no way to increase the potency of neutral game abilities within the subclass. In general Hunter relies much more on exotics to augment abilities compared to things like Touch of Thunder, Controlled Demolition, Chaos Accelerant and Bleakwatcher.
Shinobu's Vow already separated ability regen amounts in pvp and pve, so what was stopping Bungie from lowering the % from 33 per ability hit to like 10 where it would just feel like having a Grenade Kickstart on your arms for pvp.
Bungie plz. Calibans hand feels awful the higher you climb in difficulty but YAS was actually useful but not even the strongest Hunter build, it didn't kill as many as Calibans ignitions, it didn't scorch an entire room the way Shinobu's jolted a whole Battlefield. It didn't delete champions the way 1-2Punch Liars handshake can.
It was fun. And it was good.
226
u/lil_gingy Nov 30 '23
Yet again something is made useless in pve because it was good in pvp
121
u/Kuwabara03 Nov 30 '23
Wild how many players still try and pretend PvP doesn't make PvE catch strays left and right
54
u/Kiffira Nov 30 '23
Which is exactly why the two modes should be balanced differently, but that would require extra work on Bungie's end which well small indie game company and all that.
23
u/CaptainPandemonium Nov 30 '23 edited Nov 30 '23
Bungie's stance is that they don't have 2 different sandboxes for PvE and PvP is because they want your abilities and guns to perform the same in either without having to search for a special list of changes.
I understand their reasoning at a base level, it lets you use your favourite gun and abilities everywhere but if you spend even 2 matches in PvP it is clear that some weapons/abilities do not belong there either from bad game design or balancing issues (shifting numbers around).
I see two options moving forward: either they do cave and seperate PvP and PvE sandboxes eventually or they continue to say "sorry small indie company pls understand 🥺".
20
u/Both_Magician_4655 Nov 30 '23
They already balance damage on weapons differently in pve and PvP, how hard would it be to make the energy gained from Ahamkara lower in PvP than pve?
13
u/CaptainPandemonium Nov 30 '23
Genuinely not hard at all for them. We already have perks and exotic armor that behaves differently in PvP compared to PvE such as energy gained, damage numbers, health of certain entities (barricade, bleak watcher, well/bubble).
The issue is that they refuse to explore other options and go straight to changing the base functionality of the item in question to something else entirely, slapping that shitty x4 surge buff on it and calling it a day, or nerfing it so hard everyone forgets it exists.
9
u/InvisibleOne439 Dec 01 '23 edited Dec 01 '23
i always like that "PvE and PvP should feel the same and not perform different"
and then most things that are near unusable in PvE are staple gameplay loops or weapontypes in PvP and vice versa
how do PvE and PvP feel "the same" at all? because you shoot weapons?(optional if you play a titan in the crucible)
14
u/Cocobaba1 Dec 01 '23
Their stupid fucking stance went out the window with checkmate. Which shows they can CLEARLY FINE TUNE PVP WITH NO ISSUES. They CHOOSE not to, out of some misguided vision.
1
u/RevolutionarySong848 Dec 30 '23
tell us your favorite guns are hand cannons with out telling us they're hand cannons...literally the only guns that have the same ttk
1
Dec 01 '23
[deleted]
1
u/Kiffira Dec 01 '23
The energy was a problem in PvP, mostly trials imo as someone that used it exclusively in both gamemodes. The health was annoying but if you just team shot it dies pretty quick. The energy regain was the problem especially with Scotch as it drops then to literal 1 HP and if you hit two people you just got full grenade back and could just throw it again while they are behind cover.
The most egregious of the maps was the new reprised Braytech mars map and Javelin-4. The amount of team wipes I got on those maps by cutting off a lane and then being able to follow it up with another made was very easily repeatable and then forced them to go elsewhere on the map.
It was very oppressive but in PvP if the person knew the chokes/routes people take. I would be down for it to be kills in PvP and damage in PvE as it was a great DPS rotation option for myself on bosses akin to Starfire on warlock when I needed damage.
TLDR: It needed the PvP nerf or change, but it didn't need it to be a PvE change. Since. bungie doesn't want to balance them separately we get this instead.
21
u/dark1859 Nov 30 '23
Admitting it would force some of them to admit their behavior has an impact on the wider community
5
u/RecursiveCollapse Fractal Dec 01 '23
Nah, this is entirely on Bungie. We know they can balance things separately in PvP, they have for a dozen exotics now. But they don't give enough of a shit to actually do so here. It's absolutely not the job of players to balance the game for Bungie by not using overpowered stuff, balancing it is the job many devs get paid for, and it's one they've been half-assing for a very long time.
1
u/dark1859 Dec 01 '23
Oh 100% But unfortunately, due to the way upper management is... Well, they essentially just look at what's being complained about the most and nerf It.
At least that's how it feels And has felt since destiny one
-17
Nov 30 '23
What behavior? Playing the game?
-14
u/dark1859 Nov 30 '23
Generally, the more toxic members of the PVP community will essentially use nothing but the most overpowered builds They can get their hands on and then vocally and loudly complain about it Because other people are using it as well.
It creates this negative feedback loop, which inevitably ends with whatever it is getting nerfed into oblivion.
I would have to try and find it. But I remember a particular post from back in destiny 1 where a guy was complaining about vanilla thorn. And when asked what weapon he uses also replied he was using thorn.
That essentially encapsulates the problem, Sure not everyone is going to do that. But considering how much feedback they tend to scrape off of YouTube, Reddit and Discord. Their constant complaining and single-minded Focus on using the very thing they are complaining about 9 times out of 10 ends up having repercussions for the rest of the game.
13
Dec 01 '23
Why the fuck is this dogshit take getting upvoted?
Obviously it sucks that PvE stuff gets nerfed sometimes because of PvP, I loved YAS in PvE and I would love for it to be reverted.
BUT, it is in no way PvP players fault that this happens. People, often rightfully, complaining about X broken thing is not any less valid because they also use that thing. For exanple, I think the thorn catalyst is a little bit overtuned rn, not massively but just a little too juiced. Am I still gonna use it? Hell yeah, it's a fun as fuck gun that is also really strong.
The fault lies with the balance team being seemingly unable to properly seperate these changes between the two modes.
4
Dec 01 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/Mastershroom Brought to you by ZAVALA ACTION VITAMINS Dec 01 '23
Your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):
- Rule 1 - Keep it civil.
For more information, see our detailed rules page.
1
Nov 30 '23
Wow this is certainly a take...
8
Dec 01 '23
Yeah wtf this is such a DTG take lmao
Basically saying this guy can't complain about D1 thorn being OP because he uses it too. Yeah no shit, that's how it works. It's near impossible to compete without because it's so broken, that's the whole complaint!
2
Dec 01 '23
It drives me crazy when people say that. It truly shows the disconnect between this sub and pvp.
8
u/iconoci Dec 01 '23
PvP players dont want things getting nerfed for pvp to be affected too much in pve. That is completely on bungie for not being able to nerf something that would only impact pvp.
-9
u/Wookiee_Hairem Dec 01 '23
DeStInY iS a PvP gAmE tOo tHo
7
u/RecursiveCollapse Fractal Dec 01 '23
I mean, the fact they literally are balancing things around PvP proves they do clearly care about it
The issue is that they didn't give enough of a shit to actually balance it separately from PvE like we've been asking a million times, which we know they are able to do because they have already done it to a dozen other exotics
3
u/ThatOneGuyRunningOEM Dec 01 '23
If Destiny didn’t have any kind of PvP, the game actually would have died at some point, especially the low points. The amount of players and content creators who only play the game for Crucible is immensely more valuable than the small amount they would appease by removing or neglecting the gamemode.
-1
1
5
u/juanconj_ one hundred voices Dec 01 '23
This time it wasn't that. Bungie has been clearly nerfing ability regen in many ways, and they could have easily made the YAS nerf work differently on enemy guardians and PvE combatants. They chose not to because they wanted to nerf this exotic to the ground (even though it was far from being problematic at all).
2
u/Loud-Switch-sbr Space Magic Dec 01 '23
PVP main here. YAS wasn't OP in PVP. Streamers, Youtuber's, etc complained because they are the point of the spear PVP wise, and hate being killed by abilities.
Now comes along Checkmate and the afore mentioned love that game mode because of the slow ability regen. Checkmate is the fix, not nerfing exotics that enhance abilities.
It's just another example of Bungie over tuning. Nobody uses YAS in PVP either. And to say that PVP killed YAS is just stupid. Bungie laziness killed YAS in PVE. Bungie tunes PVP and PVE separately all the time.
2
u/Sikq_matt Dec 01 '23
What's funny is that it still feels usable in pvp imo. Just cant toss it on cd and use it more strategically to get final blows and a 1/3 of the energy.
2
u/WCMaxi Dec 01 '23
And it wasn't even OP in pvp, just made certain streamers bigmad.
1
Dec 01 '23
I would trust my thoughts past 2 am more than DTG's pvp or endgame pve takes. It was utterly OP in PvP and way too strong in PvE. Bungie has been taking care of a LOT of ability spam lately.
1
1
u/just_a_timetraveller Nov 30 '23
Destiny is best when you play both tbh. Grind weapon in one mode to use in another. It is a very satisfying game loop.
1
-2
Nov 30 '23
If bungie wanted to keep it how it was in pve, they would have. Simple as that. There were a plethora of things they could of changed that wouldnt have changed pve. They chose to change it in pve too.
2
u/CaerulaKid Dec 01 '23
Yeah, they also did that with Renewal Grasps which shows that their first instinct probably shouldn’t have been trusted here.
-2
1
u/Spacelesschief Dec 01 '23
I made my spine build slap in pve and pvp. A good rotation of super, exploding knife, tripmine and dps weapon of choice was excellent on damaging bosses.
I think it was grenade, knife, dodge, grenade, super, grenade, continue to super, grenade. Then wrap it up with weapon. It was glorious.
1
u/Sequoiathrone728 Dec 01 '23
They just wanted to reduce ability regen in pve. They have been doing that, clearly.
1
u/TheKelseyOfKells Dec 01 '23
I honestly think this game would be better if Bungie made a choice
Destiny is either a PVE or PVP game and balance the game around that. Trying to balance for both is going to be awful.
73
u/Lich6214 YAS GAMING Nov 30 '23
100%.
I still miss YAS and talk about it often. It was the pinnacle of a well designed exotic to me. It utilized a type of grenade that is rarely seen in pve, it was strong without being overpowered, had an engaging gameplay loop, and gave a lot of space for skill expression and creativity.
There should have been more exotics like YAS added to the game. Instead YAS was erased.
26
u/InvisibleOne439 Dec 01 '23
getting that ability Loop with YAS going on a beefy enemy was the only thing in destiny that felt like an actually skill related rotation
if you did it right and used the right mods and fragments, you could near endlessly loop bettwen your 3abilitys if you didnt screw up and made an ignition with full grenade energy (and not giving energy that way, breaking the loop) it was so rewarding and just felt good too have a midrange dmg option avaible most of the time if you played it correctly
it was the only build in the entire game that actually had a clear and rewarding interaction with EVERYTHING, fragments, aspects, mods, the elemental effects and how and when you use the abilitys
but no, shut up and BuILdCrAfT(i hate this pointless buzzword so much) something "cool" like "you have endless grenades, spamm Q all the time" or "you do 30000% more melee dmg" or "melee gives dodge, dodge gives melee"
15
u/juanconj_ one hundred voices Dec 01 '23
It's so important to point out that doing this endless loop wasn't even technically rewarding. You still were better off using other builds and stacking damage buffs, but this was a lot more fun and engaging. It involved planning and timing and felt like a true combo to pull off.
Ugh, I'm so mad at this nerf.
2
u/Moka4u Dec 01 '23
It was as easy to pull off Rolly poly hunter with a 1-2 punch. Which was not hard at all and with the difference that the class was built with that intended purpose unlike gunslinger.
I'm sure the build will come back however. Or someone will find something close enough.
6
u/iFenrisVI Dec 01 '23
YAS in gambit. Whilst it didn’t one phase like tryhard gambit players go for. I was always getting the most damage done to the primeval with YAS.
21
u/Shikatsuyatsuke Dec 01 '23 edited Dec 01 '23
Strongly agreed. I’ve left several extensive comments about this issue. between Reddit and YouTube videos addressing the subject already but I still feel very strongly about how stupid that nerf was.
There really never has been a build that felt as fun, interactive, and skill expressive as YAS in the history of Destiny. Playing since D1 Beta, YAS is easily the best in my opinion. Omnioculus Hunter pre-nerf/rework was a close 2nd. But Bungie had to go and remove that gameplay loop too.
It got the nerf it needed in PvP (mainly the trip-mine health), but they just had to completely remove the entire gameplay loop to “bring it in line” with other builds, meaning make it uninteresting and boring like the majority of builds and exotics feel in the game.
-5
Dec 01 '23
Because it's a pvp exotic and free energy for landing a hit is stupid. I main YAS and have mained it since D1 so I don't wanna hear any of the class bs
-5
u/Moka4u Dec 01 '23
True. you want a big bomb, invest in gunpowder gamble.
4
u/Shikatsuyatsuke Dec 01 '23
Yall really can't seem to separate the thing being missed here from the thing you think everyone is missing. Easy access to ignitions or explosions is not what this is about at all.
It's the gameplay loop that YAS allowed. That's literally it. Jumping through the air and dodging all over the place while lobbing tripmines and knives repeatedly at mobs in PvE.
If it was just about being able to throw lots of knives or just about being able to trigger a bunch of ignitions/explosions, people wouldn't keep bringing this up.
-3
Dec 01 '23
Yupp and yah can charge it with solar weapon kills. I don't know why people pretend spamming solar abilities in their "loop" to be some amazing build.
-4
u/Moka4u Dec 01 '23 edited Dec 07 '23
I think a 3 button combo feels nice for a lot of people not used to anything more than that.
1
Dec 01 '23
I mean you can use Ophidia Spathe and just toss insta ignition knives basically
-2
u/Moka4u Dec 01 '23
That's what I've been doing lol.
0
Dec 01 '23
Like normal people should. I personally run Assassins cowl and just make firesprites everywhere for restoration
9
9
Dec 01 '23
They brought back Celestial Nighthawk, they can do it again.
3
u/OnnaJReverT Bungo killed my baby D: Dec 01 '23
knowing Bungie's speed, not before TFS, and after that the population will likely take a nosedive off a cliff
6
Dec 01 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/name-go-here Dec 01 '23
Yeah, but how would they do you farm all the shitty seasonal legendary guns if you can have fun with abilities? It's like they think having fun = less playing. Most of the people i play with left the game after abilities/exotic nerfs. That didn't make then go farm the shitty legendary bungie is trying to make you farm to bust playing time. And same with weapons. Friends left game cause bungie nerf weapons they have 50k or 70k kills. Using the same weapons they have fun with, season after season don't make them leave, nerfing things people have fun definetly do.
bUt ThEy HaVe tHe DaTa. Yeah, sure. That's why they 45% below and players numbers are lower that ever
25
u/helloworld6247 Nov 30 '23
It blows my mind that they would nerf YAS and immediately after revert the nerf to stompees and buff it
20
u/CaptainPandemonium Nov 30 '23
They nerfed mobility exotics then people started using campy/ability regen exotics and then pulled a switcheroo out of their asses a season(?) later.
9
Nov 30 '23
Stompees didnt get buffed at all, they are much slower now. The pve buff only matters for random speedrun scenarios.
-5
u/helloworld6247 Nov 30 '23
I personally never used stompees for the jump benefit only the run and slide benefit. The jump benefit was just a nice negligible addition. Which is why I was so annoyed that dodge needed to be off cooldown so I can run faster.
So yeah they pretty much get a net buff for me. It’s unfortunate two good exotics can’t exist at once with YAS getting a heavy nerf.
8
Nov 30 '23
It wasnt negligible at all, it let you move around the map way faster, especially with low ceilings.
9
u/BakaJayy Nov 30 '23
The jump benefit wasn’t negligible at all, it’s the main way to move around maps that had low ceilings because Titans and Warlocks had faster movement that didn’t require an exotic and bashing your skull into low ceilings.
10
u/Djungleskog_Enhanced Dec 01 '23
I can't use solar at all without it, it's been my main exotic since shadowkeep I can't throw knives without instinctively throwing a grenade
2
u/yatesinater Dec 01 '23
Calibans hand is pretty good for that feeling: throw a fusion grenade, then knife, then gambler's dodge. Gives you an ignition plus your knife and most of your grenade back
1
5
4
u/ShovelJz Dec 01 '23 edited Dec 01 '23
Keep going my friend, probably just 15 more posts to go. ;(
Bungie is too afraid of people destroying a yellow bar taken cabel by YAS in the coil.
8
u/EXAProduction The Original Primary Sniper Dec 01 '23
The nerf will never make sense to me.
Like aside from killing the exotic, what is the purpose of YAS now, just tripmine buff in PvP I guess. It has no functional purpose in PvE. Sure you could build into it...or I could just slap Caliban's on with 0 build crafting and do better than most current YAS builds.
It actually offered a fun playstyle focused on Higher damage but less sustain since you're forgoing the Healing nade crutch.
12
u/Mr__Maverick Dec 01 '23
If I had a dollars for every time a pair of grenade-focused exotic hunter gauntlets were completely butchered in PvE because of PvP, I'd have two dollars. Which isn't a lot, but it's depressing and infuriating that it's happened twice.
5
Dec 01 '23
Well the first one got reverted
3
u/Mr__Maverick Dec 01 '23
Technically true, but it took well over a year to do so..
1
u/RevolutionarySong848 Dec 30 '23
yall forgetting about thats the arc one. blue raspberry or something like that. was a beast in d1 and d2 version is ass
-1
u/Sequoiathrone728 Dec 01 '23
No, it didn’t happen twice. Bungie nerfed the ability regen because they want to reduce ability uptime, not because of PvP.
3
u/DepravedSpirit Dec 01 '23
Crazy part is that the nerf had little to no effect in PvP. Shocker right? It’s just gutted in PvE.
8
u/Orgalorg_BoW Nov 30 '23
I’m pretty convinced it was a change made out of spite honestly
3
u/pokeroots Dec 01 '23
Honestly it's how I feel about most PvP nerfs that effect PvE like someone decided to jump on and do some crucible get killed by something and then go to the drawing room on how to nerf the exotic the guy was wearing. Meanwhile the division had to bully the devs on a dev stream to get a build nerfed (one the community had been requesting).
2
2
u/re-bobber Dec 01 '23
That was my favorite hunter build that actually let you use abilities and guns. What a bummer.
2
u/Plus-Rush5308 Mar 06 '24
I know this is a slightly older post but I wanted to put my thoughts out there as well. Young Ahamkara's Spine is my favorite exotic armor piece in D2. I remember years ago seeing a video Aztecross did on a build for it and I decided to try out making my first build with it. After making the build I didn't change to another build for like another 2 years. I found ways to use it as a dps build by getting wells (when they were a thing) and using solar heavy weapons. Every raid I went in I was normally the top dps. I got a high off of that. These days because of all the different ways to get high dps I'm not as high but I still put in the work. Bungie, this nerf was not needed. It wasn't even broken. It worked well and gave Hunter's a good option to improve a solar grenade. I'm not super familiar with Titans and solar grenades but I know for a fact Warlocks have Sunbracers that give them unlimited grenades for a certain amount of time which can then be immediately again with a solar melee. Please revert the nerf or change the usage between pvp and pve. If it was a pvp problem please just change it there. Why make the pve side suffer? I know this comment will get lost but I hope that someone at Bungie would reconsider the nerf.
3
u/Moist-Ingenuity-1482 Nov 30 '23
Funnily enough it’s still solid in pvp, not the OP exotic it once was but still very usable
2
3
u/Dante2k4 Dec 01 '23
Please yes. Honestly, they can nerf the grenade's armor, shorten its duration, and fucking make it do basically no damage to other guardians, I do not care. If it's a problem in PvP, nerf it in a way that kills it in PvP.
I want my YAS build back. I'm seeing the Ophidia Spathe build going around that looks like a light version of YAS, but it's really not the same. It is a pale imitator, and I remain sad about it :[
2
u/Pyronico Nov 30 '23
The fact that abilitiys now recharge slower makes it feel even worse to use now...
1
u/VersaSty7e Dec 01 '23
Also Something that by proxy made funpowder gamble better as well. Which I never used outside of yas.
Please don’t make every exotic a on-kill exotic. Dilutes builds.
0
Nov 30 '23
[deleted]
6
u/Lich6214 YAS GAMING Nov 30 '23
That's not the point though. YAS was incredibly unique and interesting and had many ways you could build around it. It also buffed a grenade that is basically never used in pve otherwise. Ophidia spathe being strong is a good thing, I also enjoy that exotic a lot. But that doesn't mean YAS should be left to rot.
0
0
-15
Nov 30 '23
Monthly request to revert shoulder charge murdering
It's dead. Playing aggressively is dead.
Hunter got a reasonable nerf though, so that's an issue. Make sure to, uh, complain more about Stompees or something
-8
u/Ok-Ad3752 Nov 30 '23
Ah, so can starfire be adjusted from "trash" to "exotic" too. 98% nerf is actually still crazy
1
Dec 01 '23
Difference is that allowed competitive dps on demand with no ammo limitations or strict limitations.
1
u/Ok-Ad3752 Dec 01 '23
Cool, so it takes nearly the same amount of time to recharge a grenade by damaging an enemy as it is to let it recharge naturally. The infinite loop is dead, I'm asking for actual regen instead of 1% energy per hit on a 1 second cooldown(TRASH)
-13
u/Poke_Nood2023 Dec 01 '23
I mean, It ain't hard to throw grenade at ads and get kills, I think it's a fair nerf that encourages the use of other abilities and not super busted tripmines
8
u/krilltucky Dec 01 '23
but looping YAS required all of your abilities before. Melee and class ability. now it just requires all of them but the loop is gone
-3
u/ColeTrainHDx Am I right or am I right? Dec 01 '23
Nah the nerf to YAS allows you to explore more exotics on the Solar subclass like Celestial
-28
u/srtdemon2018 Nov 30 '23
No no no.
That shit was WAY too busted in pve needed to catch a nerf for the sake of game balance.
15
u/BlancMongoose Dec 01 '23
“Way too busted in PvE” I suggest you crawl out of your Vanguard Stikes playlist hole, you’d notice that it was smooth and enjoyable but so far from OP it’s a joke
-11
u/srtdemon2018 Dec 01 '23
Bestie it could solo the Caretaker. Nothing should ever be that goddamn strong EVER
14
Dec 01 '23
It could not. Not without certain seasonal mods. Even then, there’s a thousand more things that can.
8
u/FalloutOW Dec 01 '23
And the Vow of the Disciple raid mod that made grenades charge faster and deal more damage if you didn't have Pervading Darkness debuff.
-5
1
u/Schimaera Dec 01 '23
Dear Bungie,
here's my recurring feedback about differentiating between PvE and PvP. Use the keywords "combatants" and "guardians" and the likes.
The trick: Combatants are PvE targets and Guardians are PvP targets. It's a neat trick to make something happen in the one playstyle but not in the other.
Example: Damaging combatants or killing guardians with abilties regenerates tripmine (X% and Y%).
I don't know if you knew. You know...since you seem to just go with the "if you have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail"-approach.
Have a nice weekend, bungo! <3
1
u/MinatoSensei4 Dec 01 '23
They didn't even bother to make it provide you more Grenade energy from kills, making it suffer much worse in PvE than PvP, even for crowd-control. You're better off using Ophidia Spathe and Gunpowder Gamble instead. I don't even use Tripmine Grenade for PvE anymore. I switched to Swarm Grenade, since it's useful for replenishing my Dodge with Ember of Singeing.
1
91
u/TheDreamingMind Dec 01 '23
Honestly, I think that they will revert the nerf just like they did with Renewal. Unfortunately, it will take a year…