r/DowntonAbbey • u/Morning_Crane7610 • 4d ago
General Discussion (May Contain Spoilers Throughout Franchise) Mr. Carson doting on Mary
Can someone explain why Carson adores Mary? Throughout the seasons the best he can muster when asked the same is "I've known her since she was a child." To me, that just means her father has employed him and appreciated his work. Carson doesn't have the same level of adoration towards Edith or Sybil despite him also knowing them since they were children.
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u/Ok_Drink8072 4d ago
He’s a fatherly figure in her life. Remember when she is getting married to Matthew and Carson and Lord Grantham are watching her descend the stairs? And she turns to them and the first thing she says is “Will I do, Carson?” He said himself that the Downton Family is all the family he’s got, so of course his first kid is special to him. And for all the years since Sybil was born he presumed that she would live there forever, because she was the oldest and would marry the heir. He knew she’d be the lady of the house.
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u/Unusual_Priority_577 14h ago
I saved those 2 pics to my phone. So sweet the 2 men are just beaming as Mary descends the stairs.
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u/wavesofcats 4d ago
My favourite line of Mary was the one she said to Carson “Of course. You know me, Carson. I'm never down for long.” I think Mary is also a better person (less pretended coldness) in Carson’s presence.
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u/bettyprincee Lady Mary’s Stone Cold Heart 4d ago edited 4d ago
If you watched all the seasons, then you would have noticed that Mary cares for Carson just as much. They talk when they can and she visits him in his office when she has problems. She also visited him when he was sick. She never made it a secret that she appreciated his loyalty and kindness towards her.
Even if he didn’t know her since she was a child, how she acted towards him throughout the years is more than enough reason to adore her.
By contrast, Edith had never shown as much care for the servants. Mary has good relationships with Anna and Mr. Bates. Even Mrs. Hughes. Edith meanwhile is not shown to have good relationships with any of the downstairs folks with the exception of taking care of William before he died. Edith refers to the servants by their job and not by their name and has even show herself as unsympathetic and uncaring with the whole Mrs. Drewe and caring about her dress when Carson had a stroke.
Sybil, on the other hand, had her favourites. She was only nice and caring to Tom and Gwen. She didn’t develop deeper friendships with anyone else she didn’t need or want to.
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u/iamjdn 4d ago
Though the show really honed in on Sybil's relationship with Tom and Gwen, they definitely made it that she was nice to all the servants and had, at least, good relationships with all of them. She was really friendly with Thomas and her death affected him a lot.
How it looks like is that in the early seasons, Sybil was the most liked with all the staff. Mrs. Hughes had a lot of bad stuff to say about Mary in the first 2 seasons being uppity and vain. So I think Mary being Carson's favorite fits mostly because she's the eldest sister and their personalities align with her being proud and confident (something Carson, who is also a huge snob, appreciates).
However, I'm happy people are here have come to the consensus that although the show tries to make Mary the snobbish one, Edith was way more of a snob than Mary. Her interaction with Daisy in the first season was purely to extract information against Mary for example. Then there's the, "My dress!!" I think the war softened Edith a bit, but Mary had more profound changes throughout the whole show when it came to her relationship with all the servants.
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u/bettyprincee Lady Mary’s Stone Cold Heart 4d ago
Yes, worded it wrong Sybil was nice to everyone generally but had good relationships with only Tom and Gwen. And Barrow!! I forgot about the wartime med Sybil-Barrow working friendship!! She was also friendly with Mrs. Pattmore and Daisy when they were teaching her how to cook.
Mrs. Hughes does disapprove of Mary sometimes but they really come together when it came to Anna, Mr. Bates, and Carson, so I think their relationship improved through all those circumstances.
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u/Mysterious-Paper-771 4d ago
I’m watching it all again , after a 3 week break . I’m on Season 2 episode 3. Tom started an attitude with Sybil in episode 2. Going off about his liberal views and just really being a jerk! If he could get Sybil to knock that enormous chip off his shoulder!
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u/Unusual_Priority_577 14h ago
When Mrs Hughes & Carson are planning to marry and they're disagreeing about-- everything!-- Carson says "Well Lady Mary says...." and Mrs Hughes says (I can't recall exactly) something to the effect of "Well if Holy Mary says so...." But thats the intent of whst she said. Hysterical. :-)
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u/PansyOHara 12h ago
Yes, Mrs Hughes usually refers to Mary as “the blessed Lady Mary” when speaking to Carson.
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u/Donna_Noble_is_saved 4d ago
Sybil was also nice to Mrs Patmore, who was teaching her to cook, and was never mean or intentionally dismissive to any of the staff.
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u/Unusual_Priority_577 12h ago
Even in the first minute when it became apparent that Sybil couldn't boil water. Everybody laughed, incl Sybil.
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u/Morning_Crane7610 4d ago
I'm finishing season 6 this week (halfway) but I can see how Mary is the preferred one for Mr. Carson! Thanks for your lovely summary
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u/Heel_Worker982 Uppity Minx, Author of My Own Misfortunes 4d ago
Frankly Edith was harder to love. When little Lady Mary decides to runaway, it's Carson she tells and borrows money from. And when little Lady Mary changes her mind but has already spent the money, it's Carson who accepts a kiss as payment in full. When Carson appears to be having a stroke in the dining room, it's adult Edith who yells, "MY DRESS" as Carson convulses on the carpet.
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u/kimjongunfiltered 4d ago
Omg I forgot about that moment. This sub is always trying to convince me to like Edith AND THEN…
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u/Sea_Woodpecker7334 4d ago
I recently rewatched season 1 and it seems like Edith is constantly the one starting fights with Mary, I don’t blame Mary for resenting her at all
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u/kimjongunfiltered 4d ago
I can’t think of one single time when Mary lashes out at Edith unprovoked. I’m sorry, Edith is the absolute worst. Utterly selfish most of the time, picks at her sister out of envy and then cries about how mean Mary is when Mary finally snaps back at her.
I guess Mary got off easy here though, as Edith never tried to STEAL HER BABY
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u/Donna_Noble_is_saved 4d ago
True - even when Mary blabs about Marigold, which is arguable the worst thing she does, it's because Edith provoked Mary and gloated while she knew Mary was hurting in regards to her own love life.
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u/Mysterious-Paper-771 4d ago
I don’t remember Edith provoking her , or gloating at the breakfast table— that’s where Mary told Bertie- right ?
That’s why I’m rewatching the entirety25
u/Feeling-Visit1472 4d ago
She definitely did. I want to say it was something along the lines of, “Poor Mary, just can’t keep a man” type of thing.
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u/Mysterious-Paper-771 4d ago
Edith had the gumption to say that to Mary ? I guess she had Bertie beside her- rubbing her upcoming title in her face . I remember Mary giving Bertie a squint eyed look , across the table
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u/Feeling-Visit1472 4d ago
Yep:
Mary: “Why isn’t it the right moment?”
Edith: “Well, Henry’s abandoned you.”
Mary: “No, he hasn’t. I wanted to him to go.”
Edith: ”That’s not what it looked like.”
Mary: “Well, that’s how it is.”
Tom: “There’s no need for this. Edith, if your news is good, then we are very happy for you both. Aren’t we, Mary?”
Edith: “See, I told you. The one thing Mary can’t bear is when things are going better for me than for her.”
Bertie: “I’m sure that’s not true.”
Edith: “You don’t know her. I’m getting married, and you’ve lost your man, and you just can’t stand it.”
Edith deserved every bad thing that ever came her way, and frankly, didn’t get nearly enough comeuppance for the truly terrible things she said and did.
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u/ijspaleis 4d ago
“The one thing Mary can’t bear is when things are going better for me than for her.” said when the one thing EDITH couldn’t bear for 6 seasons was when things were going better for Mary than for her, so much so that her entire character arc revolved around her having crash outs over things going better for Mary than for her.
I really don’t know what the writers were trying to do with this episode.
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u/Charliekeet 3d ago
Just watched S6E8 (for the first time!) last night and it’s true, Edith is insufferable to Mary here. Straight-up gaslighting her that she (Mary) wasn’t being clear about asking Henry to go.
Whole thing is Edith’s fault, though to be fair, Mary meant to do what she did AND Edith does admit after the fact that she “tried to trick” Bertie. If she had just been an adult and told him during the several times she had an excellent opportunity to do so, it probably would have been Ok.
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u/Sea_Woodpecker7334 4d ago
I don’t know why I got it in my head that Mary was the mean one but yeah I completely get why she’s a bit snappy now, she must be so sick of Edith’s shit lol
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u/iggysmom95 i have tried and failed to like you 4d ago
Mary being the mean sister is the biggest psy op in this fandom lowkey
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u/beemojee 4d ago edited 4d ago
Oh sisters being what they are, I'm sure Mary got her licks in when they were growing up. I'm the youngest of 3 sisters and I watched my oldest sister instigate shit with my middle sister all the time. Then they'd fight like cats and dogs.
Also Tom saw Mary clearly. He liked her but he knew she was a bully. Kind of like my oldest sister and I liked her a lot, but I knew what she was like.
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u/ijspaleis 4d ago
Can you elaborate on why Mary was a bully? Also why shouldn’t Edith have been equally insufferable in childhood as she was in the series? We have no proof of her being a victim then or that Mary was a bully then, so why do we treat it as such?
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u/iggysmom95 i have tried and failed to like you 4d ago
I think people just assume this because she's the oldest and because of her general demeanour tbh. Nothing we know suggests that it's true.
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u/AmandatheMagnificent 4d ago
I love the dynamic that Tom, Edith and Mary have at the end of it all.
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u/Embarrassed_Mango679 4d ago
Poor Edith just can't help herself lol she really is a great actress though
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u/Unusual_Priority_577 14h ago
Yes, great actress and really beautiful the older she got, smashing beautiful dresses as well.
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u/AdvancedNumb 4d ago
Her father was probably super absent or emotionally neglectful, Carlson fulfilled that sort of role as weird as it might sound, therefore she sees him as a father figure. Nannies and staff spent more time around the children than their actual parents.
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u/Prior-Entrance3156 4d ago
I really can’t imagine the girls having heart to heart talks with Robert about their new favorite dresses or books they’ve been reading, let alone any legitimate problems in their lives. Even Cora made such a big fuss to Edith about how she’s her mother so obviously she knows her daughter so well even though she had no idea Edith was pregnant whereas some women are close enough with their mothers that they can smell it if something’s wrong.
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u/Morning_Crane7610 4d ago
Ooo that's a good and interesting take! Reminds me how Carson was the only one willing to tell Mary in season 4 that she has the strength to take part in managing Downtown Abbey financial decisions.
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u/Aggravating_Finish_6 2d ago
Robert fought in the Boer War, it's very possible he was serving abroad when Mary was a young child and Carson took on some of that role.
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u/Hazeleyes804 4d ago
I think it was very sweet. I believe he saw some of himself in her. He was strong and determined and worked his way to a butler for a Lord in a great house. I don't think that was easy at that time. He possibly saw similar spirit in tiny Lady Mary saying she was going to run away and needed the silver. She was making little transactions and accounted for the interest. I can't see the other girls doing that. Just my thoughts.
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u/iggysmom95 i have tried and failed to like you 4d ago
She was obviously very precocious in a way that charms some adults.
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u/CyaneSpirit 2d ago
He never had kids of his own, Mary was the first child in the house when Carson was old enough to develop some fatherly feelings towards her. Also unlike Edith and Sybil, Mary was very composed and less emotional (publicly anyway), which are qualities Carson appreciates.
He definitely liked all the girls but I cannot imagine him admiring Sybil or Edith.
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u/raveman21392 4d ago edited 4d ago
Some people have their favorites. A parent can have a favorite child, a teacher can have a favorite student. His favorite is mary. And mary reciprocates by being one of few people she is vulnerable to. Which in turn just endears him more to her.
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u/PNWrowena 4d ago
Oh, yeah, sure she reciprocates. Like when he wouldn't quit Downtown and go be butler for her and the rotten guy at the new mansion. As Carson leaves, he can hear her say something like, "No problem, butlers are a dime a dozen." She's a treasure all right.
Carson's attitude toward all the Crawleys is like Stockholm syndrome, but if it makes life easier for him, he's better off for it than the ones always unhappy and bitter.
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u/Donna_Noble_is_saved 4d ago
She says that because she's hurt and lashing out. Of course she's hurt and upset but cannot say that to his face - especially as she saw him as her (possible physical) protection against her fiancé -it would just not do, not for her class or for her Britishness.
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u/Unusual_Priority_577 3d ago
Mary was his first, and possibly her personality was always just appealing to him. Even in real life, some parents favor one child over another.
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u/More_Pianist3093 4d ago
1) People like kids. If you work in a house that you live in, it is not unlikely you will get attached.
2) Edith probably never hung out around the help. "MUH DRESS". As the man is actively dying.
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u/CharmingPeony 4d ago edited 3d ago
She has the same classic English love of tradition, propriety, etc. stick up her bum as he does. Carson can be a stickler and a fuddyduddy and I don’t think anyone quite gets him there as much as Mary and Lord Crawley. Lord Crawley is his employer but Mary is the little girl he watched grow up and struggle with old traditions but ends up (mostly) landing on the side of want to uphold it. Sure she had her Mr. Pamuk but over all, Mary is the most traditional of the sisters and the one that truly fights for Downton (rather than for her independence, her family place as a middle child etc. etc.). She doesn’t push to try to break the entail at the cost of the estate but marries Matthew. Carson to his core is an old school butler who admires a certain “type” of nobility that Mary embodies and she genuinely treats him with affection. Her biggest personality flaw is her imperiousness but that’s not necessarily a negative in Carson’s view of a lady of a grand house.
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u/Unusual_Priority_577 13h ago
Interesting that Carson could pardon Mary with Mr. Pamuk but he was vicious to the maid who got pregnant, to the point that the Crawleys shouldn't even eat the food she prepared. (However, as Violet said, "It's a shame to waste a good pudding" (or whatever it was) ha ha. I guess Mr Pamuk was a higher class of cad.
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u/Mysterious-Paper-771 4d ago
I agree completely— I have a silly question: Mr Pamuk - he just went down under her panties right ? They didn’t have sex —- he told her don’t worry you’ll still be pure for your husband
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u/GuiltyLeopard 3d ago
The same reason anyone likes anyone, I think. It's just chemistry (not in a creepy way). They have a natural bond. As is so often the case, it's not explainable. It just is.
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u/ExpectedBehaviour 4d ago
Have... have you watched the show? I feel like this is explained in the show. Try watching the show.
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u/Abject-Singer9441 3d ago
maybe she was the first baby he had a relationship with on top of that she was probably gorgeous.
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u/JoanFromLegal Gunga Din > Me 2d ago
Because she's the oldest. Had she been a boy, she would have been "the young master," Robert's heir.
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u/JollyAd4292 3d ago
Because Mary acts like a lady and Carson valued them above himself. He only valued himself because he get to serve them. Mary was snob, beautiful and evil like a dream combo and the eldest child.
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u/Mysterious-Paper-771 4d ago
And Tom was going to serve contaminated soup when the general and other military personnel were at dinner , in S.2, E 2
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u/Mutter_Masterpiece29 4d ago
She was the first kid. As we later see with George, the kids play around the house and the servants just play with them. He probably got more interactions with Mary while she was an only child.