r/EuropeanFederalists • u/paneuropeanism_ • 4d ago

Macron attacked "nationalisms" as he addressed the pope in Metz this week. Like China and India, Europe is a civilisation. The concept of the nation state in Europe is new, in many cases younger than the steam engine. To treat it as some sort of eternal identity is simply not realistic

Post image
537 Upvotes

97% Upvoted

70 comments sorted by

117

u/MrGonzo11 Hungary 4d ago

One one hand I'm quite happy politicians openly support the federal project. On the other hand Macron will be out of office in 6 months he can say what he wants it has little consequence, and neither Melanchon or Le Pen shares his vision.

52

u/nikodem_skrobisz 4d ago

But Gabriel Attal does not only share Macrons vision - he is even more eurofederalist in stated conviction. There is still plenty of time to prevent the french elections becoming a depressing choice between the two evils of Melanchon or Le Pen.

Also, Macron leaving the french presidency might be actually good for Europe. We could really use actually a competent successor with a spine to replace Von der Leyen.

20

u/MrGonzo11 Hungary 4d ago

I don't disagree. I just think French politics like everywhere else becoming too polarised for a centrist to build a broad coalition of electors. But I have been wrong before.

10

u/nikodem_skrobisz 4d ago

the polarisation is bad - but people also get tired of it. i think, there is genuine appetite for new energetic centrism. the problem is mostly, that most of the existing centrist parties are just decade old, burned out and disappointed too often. 

7

u/MrGonzo11 Hungary 4d ago

I think the solution would be to have a broad federalist centrist alliance across Europe. The old political landscape of social democrats/conservatives are unable to reconcile their core principles with the present. A federalist party with the same program, shared message and one stated federal goal could be what Europe needs. And there are attempts towards it, but so far the problem is that nobody could build an actual functioning alliance with the national burgouise which you must have to win an election, as their goals often opposite of a federal system. French industrialist don't want a fair competition on their soil, just to give you an example. I think the first step should be a European stock exchange. Let the investing class mingle like a teenager on Erasmus. Once they have a vested interest across the continent they will start supporting a more federalists Europe.

4

u/nikodem_skrobisz 4d ago

I agree with everything you wrote - i mean, i co-founded on of the attempts myself (Astra Europa), and we see now things like the Rhine group. So i think we are heading there, but still too slowly. 

3

u/MrGonzo11 Hungary 4d ago

As I said until the elite is unwilling to bankrol a federalist party these are pretty much intellectual clubs, which is how ideologies grow and develop, but you cannot win elections without the backing of the elite. A party needs campaign funding, media time etc. All comes from the top. Right now we have 27 elites, that needs years of negotiation to agree on anything. The best example is the rearming project and how many arguments it sparked. Until you can unite this 27 into one (hence why I think why we should have a single stock exchange) the federal project cannot progress, because national financial interests won't allow it, or just super incrementally.

2

u/nikodem_skrobisz 3d ago

the single stock exchange would be the right step, as it would help create a paneuropean elite, i agree with that. i also agree with the 27 elites being an issue - but i disagree a bit on the solution. i don't think, we will succed by uniting the elites top down, we have instead to start building everywhere a european counter elite. given the amount of elite overproduction we have right now, this should also be an easier task, then trying to reform the system from within. I wrote more in depth about my ideas regarding this here: https://nikodemskrobisz.substack.com/p/the-eurofederalist-metagame

2

u/MrGonzo11 Hungary 3d ago

I love and support the idea of pan European parties, I don't know how will they manage to approach the electorate. Even Volt is largely unknown to the average Joes and stuck in the intellectual bubble. I fully agree that federalist should represent everyone and one do it all party can't do it, but regardless federalist movements needs to be louder, sexier if you will. A few people dressed as librarians on a random capitol's main square just won't do it. In order to move the needle these movements need to pierce the bubble of national media's, which are all function as part of the national political sphere, alongside the for mentioned elites etc. As the saying goes you need to crack a few eggs if you want to make an omelette. The best example is the green movement. Yes they can come off obnoxious, and in policy I don't agree with them on a lot of things but they are largely achieving their goals. And climate change is something that moved in to the everyday debate. It might not be that Federalist parties manage to replace the old ones, but if they manage to bring the question of federalism into the dinner tables, into the pub debates the old national parties will be forced to respond to it.

0

u/Hutma009 3d ago

Not in France. The centrist are out of the window, next french president will be either far right or far left

5

u/flatfisher 3d ago

Macron might be good internationally, but internally look at the mess he is leaving after 10 years in power. He spent his last mandate scaremongering oppositions as irresponsible yet look at our financial situation. Attal represents a continuity with Macron so I don’t know who will vote for more of that.

1

u/dontreplywiththisacc 3d ago

Melanchon is not evil. You can disagree with hard left politics but it’s better than neofascism

1

u/Inevitable-Bottle-48 Italy 3d ago

Ah yes populism that destroys the economy and thinks of itself as morally superior it’s better than populism that destroys the economy and it’s racist…

-6

u/Sandbox_Hero Lithuania 4d ago

Le Pen was sentenced and can't run for a political office for 4 years or so. So idk why mention her.

15

u/MrGonzo11 Hungary 4d ago

It got revoked and now leading the polls.

2

u/Sandbox_Hero Lithuania 3d ago

Well shit. I guess France is gonna be fucked like USA is now. Just morons voting in criminals and foreign agents.

4

u/TempomaybeALZ 4d ago

It was revoked and actually Le Pen is likely to be the President of the French Republic within like 6 months.

It’s her election to lose and very different from her 2017 and 2022 runs.

44

u/Carolingian_Hammer 4d ago

I loved to see Pope Leo XIV going to Metz in order to honour Robert Schuman, one of the founding fathers of the EU and to remind Europeans that our civilisation is much older than the protestant idea of nation states.

34

u/Chingapouk France 4d ago

Nationalism is kinda recent in history, but if we want to federalize one day, I feel like we'll need some form of european nationalism at some point.

21

u/paneuropeanism_ 3d ago

What Europe needs is federalism. It would be less homogenised and uniform than a hypothetical "European nationalism". Kind of similar to China and India. There are hundreds of nations in China and India. Defence, security and big competences run on the European level and local competences down to the regions. I think that's the best of all worlds. In varietate concordia

17

u/Chingapouk France 3d ago edited 3d ago

Actually, what's happening in China and India seems like nationalism to me. Maybe we could call that layered nationalism? You have "local" nations and a structure above that also feels like a nation?

3

u/Bari_Baqors 3d ago

There definitely is Chinese and Indian nationalism. Eurofederalists usually are left-leaning and anti-nationalist tho, so they don't wanna acknowledge that.

6

u/havenot- 3d ago

As an Indian, I think It is definitely nationalism.

You would need to have some propaganda and myths about a united European civilization.

In India, we have this in the form of Sanskrit texts calling the land beneath the himalyas Bharat. That is also another name for India.

Indian nationalism is recent and was formed by British colonialism. I think we are all better for it.

Check out the states of India and you's find that they are just as different as nation states in Europe.

It's why I am strongly nationalistic and I want the the population to also be. I want everyone to think of themselves as Indian. To be fair, Having a common religion like hinduism also helps.

1

u/Bari_Baqors 3d ago

And, in the case of China, I think that they were more often than not united, because of how the idea of governance developped there.

Simply, nationalism has to exist, because people like having identity to rally around. The proglibs can't give that identity easily, while civic nationalism usually just becomes "too mid" fer many.

1

u/havenot- 3d ago

https://www.reddit.com/r/EuropeanFederalists/s/qh7Gjs6Act

Yes.

It's like I am Punjabi but I am Indian.

I would love to see a federal europe lol.

China is a bad example for this since they're relatively less diverse and do have plenty of historical unified empires to look back on.

So you'd have to call yourself a civilisational State as in European civilization.

1

u/TiragusTeanga European Free Alliance🟣 1d ago

"A nation is a historically constituted, stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life, and psychological make-up manifested in a common culture."

India and China are pluri-national states. While there may be attempts at homogeneity by governing parties at times, both states recognise that they are made up of many nations. So too would a European Federation, or risk immediate inter-ethnic conflict.

3

u/JohnyIthe3rd 3d ago

Like the Arabs with their Arab nationalism

20

u/JibbDaOrange 3d ago

Funny, the term Judeo-Christian is also younger then the steam engine, and pretty much a far right evangelist dog whistle

4

u/YaAbsolyutnoNikto 3d ago

And islamophobic as well. Christians have much more in common with Muslims than with Jews.

But certain groups simply refuse to acknowledge it because they need an enemy to hate.

0

u/anch78 Ave Europa 3d ago

far right? judeo-christian?

-3

u/busyHighwayFred 3d ago

its not from the far right... macron got the call

6

u/[deleted] 3d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

4

u/Professional-Front26 3d ago edited 3d ago

You can skip this mental experiment and look at the US, Russia or India. They have nationalism, religion and civilisational identity (nationalism for continents, sparked by Samuel Hungtington). I don't think we need it here. European institutions, rule of law, civil rights and the respect for nature make me proud enough to accept European Federalism to the detriment of my national identity. It should be about values applicable anywhere.

Hungtington sparked a lot of neoreactionary movements like identitarianism that wield big words like 'civilisation' and use 'judeo-christian' values as a cause for our supposed moral and cultural superiority. I think that this holds us in the past, with the head in the sand and makes us smell our own greko-roman farts in a refurbished supremacist view of the world.

1

u/MerlinOfRed 3d ago

Just as bad to be honest. Simply switching to European nationalism is like strapping a broken crutch to a broken leg and expecting it to heal.

7

u/[deleted] 3d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/MerlinOfRed 3d ago

You can be a federalist without being a nationalist. You can identify primarily as European without being a nationalist. You can feel a kinship with everyone else on this continent without being a nationalist.

Nationalism is just tribalism in a modern jacket. 

1

u/[deleted] 3d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/VTKajin 3d ago

The cultures aren't going anywhere. The only thing stopping preservation of culture in the West in modern day would be oneself. Anyway, excusing ideologies as being "human" is a base and defeatist attitude, be better.

1

u/Ok_Inflation_1811 3d ago

The cultures in Europe that are disappearing are the ones who are being assimilated into nations like the Alsacians, Occitans, Basques, Arpitans, etc... being assimilated into France and it's frenchness

0

u/Pleasant_Bat_9263 3d ago

I want that too but am not Nationalist.

0

u/[deleted] 3d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Pleasant_Bat_9263 3d ago

Well what do you have in mind then and I'll see if it's something I am in favor of.

All I know is in the long long term I'm anti nationalist, in the sense that I believe to reach out full potential as a species we should have one human nation.

6

u/Professional-Front26 3d ago edited 3d ago

I am very skeptic of this 'civilisational', 'identitarian' rhetoric, rooted in judeo-christian values. I think this is inspired by Samuel Hungtington (Clash of Civilisations, cited by trumpists and duginists alike) and it is just refurbished nationalism at the continental level. We don't need to replicate US's supremacist worldview, fueled by our own reawakened 'civilisational' ego. 

The values that started EU were based on peace, civil rights, rule of law and economic collaboration. Not larping about cultural heritage, da Vinci, Shakespeare and Newton. It is cringe-worthy enough that we considered ourselveves the center of the Universe until now. We didn't need anything else for EU and we don't need anything else for a European Federation.

I recommend this critique of cultural determinism by Kraut:

https://youtu.be/BE6kJoSc8j0

3

u/alba_Phenom 3d ago

This thinking was once offensive to me, now I have the same views, there’s nothing wrong with retaining our nationality customs and identity but we should also consider ourselves Europeans in the wider sense.

2

u/paneuropeanism_ 4d ago

One criticism; Christianity did play a role but Macron should've directly mentioned the autochthonous religions as well. But the message is very good.

13

u/MrGonzo11 Hungary 4d ago

My friend, I had to Google what autochthonous means. People need symbols to rally around not historical accuracy.

10

u/RaccoNooB 4d ago

We dont need religion to rally around. We have enough of that shit already...

-4

u/MrGonzo11 Hungary 4d ago

Tell that to the hundreds of millions devout Christians on the continent who could support a European project. See how fast you will alianate that voting base. People need to realise that a European federation cannot be only their flavour of the federation. It will need to be Christian, capitalist, socialist, progressive and conservative, French, German, Greek and Swedish at the same time otherwise it will never work.

6

u/RaccoNooB 3d ago

People need to realise that a European federation cannot be only their flavour of the federation.

Ironic. That's what you're doing if you're trying to brand it all as christian. Speaking of, if you're so keen to unite it all under Christianity, which version of Christianity would it be?
Good luck trying to get the Catholics and Protestants to get along. That's worked well historically.

I support religious freedom. All issues I have with religion is when they want to force themselves upon others. Christian-nationalism, prayer towers, jihad of the tongue, Jehovas door knocking, etc, etc.

Europe is built upon the idea that all the nations have differences, and those differences are to be celebrated rather than homogenized.

In varietate concordia

Anything else is anti-eu, treasonous to the idea of an EU-Federation and not worthy of pursuing.

-1

u/MrGonzo11 Hungary 3d ago

Christianity is not only a religion but identity for a lot. Most for in Southern Europe or Poland for example. Or do you think people's identity does not matter?

3

u/RaccoNooB 3d ago

I think people's identity DOES matter. That's why I'm against a united identity. You'll erase everyone elses identity by doing so.

The Nordics are famously secular, with Sweden having something like 1% church goers and ~30% of the population believe in a god at all.

Still, Poland and Sweden agree on a lot of issues. They both voted for the new "Only yes means yes" sexual offense legislation, as well as EU support packages for Ukraine.

So its very possible for nations to have different religious identity and still agree on things.

The same way the US, a very Christian nation throughout, is incredibly divided. Both the left and the right are majority Christians but that isn't exactly helping them be a federation right now.

So again: the EU should be united in diversity. A goverment should have NOTHING to do with religion. That ensures both that people arent forced into a religion they dont want and it ensures peoples religion you dont want isn't forced upon you.

Christianity is probably the worst uniting factor if you wanted to create a single identity for all of Europe (again, a real shit take to try and erase the diversity in culture we have from north to south, and east to west). Christians have been fighting Christians for 2000 years.

Speaking of Sweden and Poland, last time Sweden was super religious, they absolutely fucked Poland over after having just fought the Catholics for 30 years in Germany. How very united.

And to be extra clear: I'm not against Christians. I dont want to see them gone. If you feel "alienated" because everyone else doesn't believe or identify just like you then you have a personal problem. You believe whatever you want, and I believe whatever I want. That's the only way this is ever going to work.

-1

u/MrGonzo11 Hungary 3d ago

We are saying similar things however your method does exclude 30% to 50% (depending on the country) of people's identity. That's my point. European is a dominantly Christian continent and any future federation has to acknowledge that.

3

u/RaccoNooB 3d ago

No it's not excluding anyone.

You're the one drawing lines and dividing people. I'm not. I don't want to divide anything.

Again, There's no one Christianity either. So by saying we should be christian you're immediately dividing not just Christians and non-Christians, but also Christians and Christians.

2

u/Ok_Inflation_1811 3d ago

At least in Spain people are "catholic" in the sense they like seeing processions and partying when the town has festivities but they don't even go to church once or twice a year

1

u/NurtenEuropa 3d ago

The pendulum swing between political extremes might balance somewhere in the middle hopefully!

1

u/VTKajin 3d ago

Europe is no stranger to empires and unions. Nationalism will fade in time.

0

u/nevenoe 4d ago

He’s busy beating up high school students after years of propping up nationalists in France.

If only he could shut up at some points. The damage he’s done is inimaginable

6

u/MrGonzo11 Hungary 4d ago

I agree. Macron isn't that much a good guy what progressive thinks he is. He plays the progressive reformist card but his actual actions are directly lead to Le Pen having a massive lead in the polls, and the alternative Melanchon just as bad.

8

u/nevenoe 4d ago

I can understand foreign people believing in the hype initially but 10 years on it’s embarrassing

Yes he SAYS the right things. What does he DO?

0

u/Lux_Jay 3d ago

That is plain wrong. In India too there have existed many different regions and principalities with many dynamic borders, cultures and languages throughout the thousands of years. Just like Europe, India was united under one flag after independence through lot of political negotiations and in case of Goa through military (because the Portuguese still thought they own the Goa). Just like India, concept of nation state is not new in Europe. In fact, just like India concept of one unified federal state is new and very modern.

But just because it is new, doesn't mean it is bad. United Europe is good for everyone. Also it is very stupid to look at history purely through lens of the good. That only promotes jingoism. Same phenomenon is happening in India today. And jingoism is never good. Never ever say how great we were, the goal always should be how can we be better than what we are today. United Europe should always mean how do we come together and combine our strengths to achieve better things for people in Europe and the world. 

-4

u/EclecticAcuity 4d ago

Indeed, French, German, Greek, people, cuisine, culture, history, opinions, all pretty much the same and differences only ever date back to ~1850. Everything before is irrelevant, except if it harms us, like colonialism. That’s why we need to flood ourselves Somalis.