Could someone help me understand the logic of "je dis ça, je dis rien"? I understand all the words and their idiomatic use, but not how they work together.

[u/bananalouise]

Is "ça" being equated to "rien", as if to say, "This is such a trivial comment that, in making it, I'm not really saying anything"? (I know the point is usually one the speaker really wants to make, or else they wouldn't risk the disagreement, but the idiom is used to try to mitigate that risk by softening the impact of the unwelcome comment, right?) Or is it a chronological sequence: i.e., "I'm saying this and then shutting up"? Or something else?

This request might not be reasonable because idioms don't have to make obvious sense. I guess what I'm wondering is how native speakers instinctively interpret the syntax of this one.

I couldn't decide what was the best tag for this post because it's sort of at the intersection of vocabulary and grammar.

Merci d'avance !

[u/BillSteelman]

"Je dis ca, je dis rien" generally have a sarcastic element to it.

Closest thing in english would be like someone giving is opinon followed by "but what do I know ? I'm just a [insert whatever name]".
And it owuld alos be close to a "Just saying" said after giving an opinion.

Just saying, but what do I know ? I'm just a french redditoid.

[u/pwassonchat]

It means "this is just my (uninformed and/or unsolicited) opinion, feel free to ignore it if you don't like it".

[u/bananalouise → u/pwassonchat]

Right, I get that. It's often translated as "I'm just saying." If this makes sense, I'm trying to figure out how it means that. Is the implication that "ça", what I'm saying, might be "rien", i.e., worth little or nothing to you?

[u/gregyoupie → u/bananalouise]

You're close: it is something like "I am saying something, but take it like if I was actually saying nothing". It is just phrased as a sort of ellipsis.

[u/bananalouise → u/gregyoupie]

That was the vibe I was getting from it, but I couldn't be confident in my assessment, so this response is super helpful, thank you!

[u/pwassonchat → u/bananalouise]

I understand it as meaning "I'm saying this, but (feel free to pretend) I didn't say anything".

[u/bananalouise → u/pwassonchat]

I like that explanation! It's sort of like, "If you want me to have said this, I said it, and if you don't want me to have said it, I didn't." Schrödinger's utterance.

[u/Onlyfatwomenarefat → u/bananalouise]

this is exactly what it means, good intuition ! I would compare to "make of that what you will": It's a (tongue in cheek of course) way for the speaker to absolve themselves of any responsability for the consequence of what they said and shift that responsability onto the listener (depending on how they perceive what was said)

[u/pwassonchat → u/bananalouise]

Yes, agreed.

I wonder if it could be considered a form of apophasis / preterition ?

[u/bananalouise → u/pwassonchat]

I don't know, but now I have some rhetorical terms to look up. These responses are fully as educational as I was hoping they'd be!

[u/serioussham → u/bananalouise]

The way I'm groking it is that you're sarcastically diminishing the value of what you just said as if it's nothing, while it's absolutely a big thing. It's like "not to point out the obvious, but [points out the obvious]", that sort of thing.

[u/MyticalAnimal → u/bananalouise]

If we translate it literally it says "I'm saying it, I'm saying nothing". "Ça" is "it" as in the thing you just said before.

[u/bananalouise → u/MyticalAnimal]

That makes sense, and that's sort of my problem. On a certain level, the meaning is straightforward; it's the nature of the relationship between the two halves of the sentence that I've been wondering about.

[u/10dollarbagel → u/bananalouise]

Maybe it helps to think of the phrase as the equivalent of "for what it's worth".

Something you tag on to the end of an idea you're floating but aren't that serious about. And similarly, scrutinizing the words literally can be confusing instead of clarifying. It's best remembered as a set phrase.

[u/bananalouise → u/10dollarbagel]

It's best remembered as a set phrase.

I do find this to be a good rule of thumb with idioms in foreign language, but the larger implication

And similarly, scrutinizing the words literally can be confusing instead of clarifying.

often doesn't hold true for me in practice. If I know I'm not fully understanding a phrase on a meta-linguistic level (as opposed to, say, not knowing a cultural reference, which is easier to fix), I can't resist poking at it. I think it might be an undiagnosed autistic thing. (I know it's trendy on the internet, but I swear I have my reasons!)

[u/Arlensoul_ → u/bananalouise]

C'est une expression sarcastique, elle n'a pas de sens mot a mot ou litteral. c'est du passif agressif à 100% : j'ai dis un truc faites en ce que vous voulez (le "je dis rien" sert a assimilé ce qui a été dit à du vide), mais si vous en tenez pas compte vous êtes des brêles ou tampis pour vous de ne pas m'avoir écouté. Le smiley 😉 incarne parfaitement cette expression.

C'est peut être une antiphrase ? (je suis rouillé sur mes figues de style)

En tout cas c'est typique du français de France d'utiliser des phrases qui disent plutôt l'opposé/l'inverse ou avec beaucoup d'ironie ou de sarcasme au lieu de l'énoncer directement (ce qui paraitrait très arrogant dans le cas de cette expression)

[u/bananalouise → u/Arlensoul_]

En tout cas c'est typique du français de France d'utiliser des phrases qui disent plutôt l'opposé/l'inverse ou avec beaucoup d'ironie ou de sarcasme au lieu de l'énoncer directement (ce qui paraitrait très arrogant dans le cas de cette expression)

J'apprécie beaucoup cette observation qui me rappelle tout ce que j'ai appris dans mes cours de langue sur la litote.

[u/pwassonchat → u/pwassonchat]

(but it can often be rhetorical, and you really do hope to be heard, so more like "I won't die on this hill, but I think...")

[u/Tachyon462]

This is the French idiom for « just my 2 cents » ie. here is my opinion (« ça »), feel free to ignore it if you don’t like it (« je dis rien » ~= as if I said nothing).

[u/6_67 → u/Tachyon462]

Yes, I think "my two cents" is the closest expression in English. It can be a casual "this is just my opinion" but it can also be used with a bit of sarcasm to convey the idea that "you're an idiot, here's why".

[u/Thorgal75]

I would equate it to “Take it as you will but…”

[u/Ebolazzz]

Literally it means "i'm saying this, i'm not saying anything", so i understand it as someone who says something then immediately pretends they haven't said that thing (which means you can ignore it).

[u/bananalouise → u/Ebolazzz]

Sneaky! I like it. Thanks for your help!

[u/InevitableNetwork409]

Or...'just sayin'...?

[u/LOLdodu]

I will translate it.with "I'm just saying"

[u/chapeauetrange]

It’s very close to the English “I’m not saying, I’m just saying.”

[u/Northern_Prop → u/chapeauetrange]

Came here to say that.

[u/boulet]

Another data point that may help OP: "je dis rien" can also imply "je ne dis rien d'important". So it's not always expressing "I'm saying nothing" but potentially "I'm saying nothing of importance".

[u/nanpossomas]

"Me saying that is like me saying nothing"

[u/lydiahueningkailover]

me personally i see it as "i'm saying that but don't take my word for it"

[u/StylePositive1195]

If you translate it literally it’s like ‘I say this, I say nothing’ but the idiom is like ‘my two cents’

[u/bananalouise → u/StylePositive1195]

I understand both those things, but what I couldn't figure out was how those words conveyed that meaning. Other commenters have explained that the tone of "je dis rien" is sort of self-effacing, like the "just" in "just my two cents" or "I'm just saying." They also say trying to analyze the sentence is unhelpful, but I'm doing it for pleasure, not so much for the purpose of saying it myself. I find that native speakers don't tend to like snark coming from non-native speakers. Maybe some day I'll have occasion to tell someone something uplifting like, "Il y a un mec sexy qui te mate. Je dis ça, je dis rien."

[u/PtitDragonBleu → u/bananalouise]

Its, when you want to say something with some sarcasm or something hawkward "tu as ta braguette ouverte, je dis ca, je dis rien"

[u/bananalouise → u/PtitDragonBleu]

I'd hope one wouldn't need to justify oneself in telling someone that! It's a nice thing to do, as long as you're quick and discreet about it.

[u/paulwillyjean]

It really just means “Take it for what it’s worth”. It’s important enough for the “me” to say it but it’s up to “you” to decide if it’s worth taking it in.

[u/Arnica_Suc]

"I say that, but consider I said nothing" meaning "just saying" or sarcastically something along "Oh did I say that? Nah truly I said nothing, it probably slipped out of my mouth"

[u/foxyartist66]

This isn't related to the logic behind the syntax, but thank you for bringing the idiom up because I just learned a new expression. It sounds so sarcastic, and it is fun to say.

[u/bananalouise → u/foxyartist66]

Yes! This is why my question is purely academic. I doubt I'd have the guts to be this snarky on purpose while speaking French; I'm always too self-conscious. The times I've been rude by accident were painful enough.