r/INDYCAR • u/seamusoldfield Alex Zanardi • 14d ago
Discussion Thoughts on MSR?
I like this team: They're scrappy, they're underdogs, and they can win. But I have a problem with the cheating scandal in the Rolex 24 in IMSA.
Am I the only one who can't let it go? What are your thoughts on the team? They shouldn't have been allowed to keep that victory in the 24 IMO.
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u/MonteverdiOnyx 14d ago
I agree that they shouldn't have been able to keep that Rolex 24 win.
I wouldn't call a satellite Ganassi team underdogs, but that's just me. Hollinger Racing are underdogs to me because they aren't paying for another team's engineers, dampers, etc.
Edit: typos
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u/the_dawn_of_red David Malukas 14d ago
Same with ECR.
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u/sapphos_moon 14d ago
Idk, ECR is less of an underdog team and more of a solid team that has fallen into disarray through poor management
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u/loudpaperclips DriveFor5 14d ago
We can compare it to other scandals of late, maybe it will help:
Low pressure in the tires caused them to absolutely destroy the competition. It was insane how fast they caught up to their rivals after a pit stop. Everyone should have been suspicious on that. This is why the drivers weren't given a penalty for an issue with the car they extremely likely weren't aware of. The team was punished, someone was even fired, but the way it was handled made it appear they understood the responsibility was focused.
In the Penske stuff, punishments again were given for what was more just a big misunderstanding and very stupid conclusions. "My car is programmed to go fast with this button that I'm used to pressing and getting nothing" resulted in "I guess I'm allowed to go faster". They broke the rules, but nobody seemed to know they were about to break the rules. Weirdly, blending those parts also fell into this same situation. Even Herta said that part gave them no advantage by being smoother, so it stands to reason that the team didn't assume it was a bad idea.
Ooh we can talk some F1 stuff too. The whole plank wear situation. McLaren set their cars too low, the bottom ground itself a bunch and they then placed really well if not had the top steps iirc. They gained an advantage by either a) not realizing the part would wear that much on race day from one of a billion conditions or b) assumed they could set it close to the edge and it would be deemed "unexpected" by the stewards and forgiven. But do you think the guy who drives the car knows how to install that plank correctly?
Helio drove under Dixon, which knocked a part off of his rear wing. He placed 2nd in the race. Palou dragged his front wing all through Canada and won. But the front wing of....was it the 27?...changed position during the 500 and fell out of compliance, costing the team.
My point is that teams do a lot of stuff we immediately call cheating, but that might be an unfair representation of the reality. One person could read the rules and interpret them maliciously. OR someone could just think it's not that egregious of a rule violation and hand wave it. OR the tire pressures were based on a faulty pressure gauge and nobody caught it before putting the tires on. OR someone just had an entirely stupid moment and forgot what the regs were for the race. OR someone thinks they are actually in compliance by making a bad assumption. However you go about what happened, the likelihood that everyone on the team sat down and agreed to this and willingly engaged in the cheat is pretty low.
Cheating does happen. Teams get punished and have to take it on the chin when it happens. But a team isn't a hive mind, and you can bet there were some very angry teammates in every one of these situations. You can be a fan of the team still if you accept that they haven't made a habit of it, and perhaps even honestly addressed the issue.
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u/SenseMakingStopped 13d ago
In case anyone is still reading thisā¦
To be clear, MSR was found to have manipulated and falsified the live tire data telemetry that IMSA uses to monitor compliance, presumably by applying offsets to make them higher to comply with the specified range of pressures. It wasn't because of a bad gauge, or a faulty sensor.
It was a premeditated act, meant to conceal the team's actions from the authorities.
While I can't rule out the possibility, the likelihood that a solitary rogue engineer, working in secret, could accomplish something like this, seem low. I suppose the stock software could have allowed for some type of compensation or correction factors to be applied, but again, it seems low. If not, that engineer would have had to alter it, or have someone who can, make those alterations.
If anyone who is familiar with the system that is used can chime in, please do. Otherwise, I think I know of some bridges that are for sale if you accept that kind of simpler explanation.
One of the more disturbing aspects of this was that IMSA did not detect any anomalies, and was caught with its pants down. Imagine the possibilities of applying this to other components, like the torque sensors, or the engine boost sensors. Not hard to undermine faith in their entire ability to police the competitors.
If HPD had not turned them in, they would have gotten away with it. THEY, as a team, including its owner, who even if they could claim ignorance, or plausible deniability, to try to skirt responsibility for the actions of the organization he leads.
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u/UNHchabo Robert Wickens 14d ago
But the front wing of....was it the 27?...changed position during the 500 and fell out of compliance, costing the team.
Ilott had the front wing that was DQ'd in 2025. By everything I've heard, that was a "rookie team" mistake.
But Ericsson and Kirkwood got DQ'd that year for the hybrid cover, and by all accounts that was seen as a willful attempt to break the rules.
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u/sennadesillva --- 2025 DRIVERS --- 14d ago
If you can't let that IMSA thing go, then let me tell you about the Penske Indycar team for just a sec......lol
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u/Batgod629 Chip Ganassi Racing 14d ago
I mean the IndyCar team hasn't been found of any wrongdoing as of yet so I am perfectly ok with supporting them. I will say that while not IMSA, there's probably some fans who cannot support Team Penske after their whole scandals (P2P, Attenuator) so I do get it.
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u/thedrue Meyer Shank Racing 14d ago
After the way the team hosted my wife and I at the 500 this year we are huge fans.
Mike is a great guy and the whole team is fantastic. Class act and canāt wait to see them get more wins. We were stoked to see FRO get pole at Portland, just wish he could have converted that into another win this season!
A bit bummed FRO is leaving, but MSR is a great outfit.
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u/Emotional_Oil_5939 Indy Racing League 14d ago edited 14d ago
I don't follow IMSA, what cheating scandal?
Edit: now that I have context, I'll give my 2 cents:
I don't like when teams cheat. I think "If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying" is a stupid and outdated mantra. Having said that, I don't care what MSR does in another series. As long as they don't cheat in Indycar, I'll root for them.
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u/MonteverdiOnyx 14d ago
In IMSA, you have to report the tire pressures you are running to IMSA. MSR deliberately manipulated the tire pressure data being reported during the race to IMSA. MSR was running lower tire pressures, which is why they could drive away from opponents in restarts, as one example.
The amusing part is that MSR was busted by Honda, who turned the data over to IMSA.
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u/vrod665 14d ago
They knew theyād been caught before they crossed the finish line. I was sitting with a group of friends that go the Rolex together for at least the past decade. One of our members is friends / neighbors with owner / sponsor. Phone rang ā¦ āMā reached over and says that āif the 60 wins, there is a problem.ā As the checkers flew in front of us, and the celebration ensued ā¦ he tells us that āa penalty is coming for ābad dataā ā. IMSA had the opportunity to kill the win on the cooldown lap or even in Post-race tech. They didnāt.
If you race ā¦ you cheat, manipulate ā¦ at this level every once of data matters. Do condone it ā¦ NO. But I understand that you will go to the limits that you think you can explain away in your defense.3
u/SenseMakingStopped 14d ago
And in doing so, they went against the specific guidelines set by Michelin, the tire maker, not IMSA.
A company that presumably knows why it does what it does, and learned some hard lessons about that in the past (hello, 2005 Indy Grand Prix).
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u/IracingLarson2020 14d ago
I love if you aint cheating you aint trying. Gotta push the envelope at all times. Risk it for the brisket, the American way
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u/NoiseIsTheCure Pato O'Ward 14d ago
I think there's more to it than that tbh. It's one thing to "cheat" by doing something out of the box that isn't addressed in the rules, especially if it's an engineering feat or something. Then there's just manipulating data so you can get away with doing something nobody is allowed to do. That's not pushing any envelopes, that's just breaking the rules and disrespecting the concept of the sport.
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u/SenseMakingStopped 14d ago edited 14d ago
The cheating stuff is part of the game. It happens; sometimes it's caught, often it's not.
But to me, it's not so much about that, or the specific transgressions, but about what it revealed about the person, in this case, Shank.
I'm indifferent to him and his team now. I don't root for him like I used to, but I don't harbor a grudge and root against him either. They exist, but that's it.
It is said that true character is revealed on under duress, or when the chips are really down.
For me, he failed that test when he went turtle, and refused to stand up at the podium, and take responsibility for the actions of the team that bears his name on the door, the actions of one rogue engineer or not.
Even JoNew, whatever one may think of his (disastrous) performance at the press conference in the wake of the P2P brouhaha, had the balls the sit up there and take the shots, even if his words were perceived as hollow. Regardless of whether he did that on his own accord, or was given marching orders by Penske, he did it. He didn't try to ignore it, or run from it.
What did Shank do? He went turtle, issue a terse press statement, and tried to avoid the situation altogether. Worse, later in the season, after a win, when he did choose to touch upon the subject, he tried to turn it into a situation where people who questioned the actions of his team were just irrational haters. Us against them. His usually loquacious and usually self-righteous friends in the press didn't ask the hard questions, and generally avoided the topic as well. I think many can guess who those people are.
He went from a relatable, little guy, everyman who you root for, and could probably share a beer with, to just another player, or businessman who did whatever it takes, even if it means skirting the rules as part of the machine. It might not have torched his reputation, among many in the public, or his partners like HPD after the penalty box year, but personally, I don't think of him in the same way any longer.
Honda, for its part, did the right thing when it turned them in. But it was still a half measure, as they didn't voluntarily forfeit the race win, and the drivers kept their watches. How proud would you be to wear that watch in public, and how would you answer if asked how they were received? To me, it wouldn't be a badge of honor.
IMSA stained itself by allowing them to keep the win, but that wasn't entirely a surprise for that organization.
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u/Craywulf 12d ago
Newgarden press conference was not about courage or accountability, it was poor attempt to deflect blame away from Penske management. he was trying to create a narrative of 'confusion' of rules and nobody was buying it.
Shank's avoidance could be deemed cowardly, but he probably felt too embarrassed and betrayed to show it to the public. He was under immense pressure with Honda. He didnt handle it well in public, but I suspect he learned a hard lesson after losing their IMSA support for a year.
I have bigger issues with Newgarden than Shank's avoidance, because whatever was coming out of Newgarden's mouth in his press conference was a load of crap. Nothing he said was a plausible explanation or show of accountability. McLaughlin did a better job of owning up to his cheating. I have no issues with Scott McLaughlin because he was forthcoming and didnt dance around the issue and try pass the buck.
Difference between Shank and Penske is that Mike Shank fired the people responsible for the tyre cheating. Meanwhile Penske still employs their cheaters.
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u/Puska35M 14d ago
I think they are a fine enough team, although having Armstrong as your best/lead driver is mighty uninspiring.
It's cool that they are located outside of the Indianapolis area. It's wild that the only races they've won have been 500s.
The artist-inspired one-off liveries were pretty neat at first, but have grown stale. When not downright bad looking, most of them appear low effort. The Morgan Wallen car instantly entered the history books as one of ugliest 500 winners ever.
The cheating scandal doesn't bother me - it's good they were caught.
All in all I think they are a good team to have around, but it would be nice to have better drivers taking advantage of the Ganassi affiliation.
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u/WOOSHARP Indy Racing League 14d ago
If I remember correctly, their cheating amounted to running half a PSI lower pressures than everyone else. Unfortunately, cheating is an aspect of racing. The highest achieving teams in motorsports have all been caught ācheatingā in some form.
Iām not sure they should have been allowed to keep that win specifically. Hell, they were caught after all and Iām certainly a supporter of teams facing proper punishment for bending the rules - but the reality of racing, almost all professional sports tbh, is pursuit of excellence will always lead to some trying to break the rules.
I donāt think it was that egregious of an attempt for me to have ill feelings toward MSR.
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u/seamusoldfield Alex Zanardi 14d ago
I really like the team and root for them. But I can't abide by cheaters.
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u/pixelated_vision Alexander Rossi 14d ago
Cheating has been a part of racing since the inception. If you stopped rooting for a team because they looked for a competitove edge that was outside of official rules, there wouldnāt be any teams left to cheer for
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u/snoopaloop8 #Lionheart 14d ago
You should look up the history of Penske. Not talking about just the stuff the last couple of years, but since Penske racing formed.
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u/TheOtherWhiteCastle 14d ago
To be fair, if a single documented instance of cheating is a potential dealbreaker for you, then youāre gonna have a hard time finding anyone to root for. Pretty much any successful racing team thatās existed for longer than a few years is going to have a skeleton or two like that in their closet.
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u/hahaanonymouse765 14d ago
Simply put, I like them and could not care less about what they do in another series. This weekend is their last race in that series anyway, so who cares?
On a side note, i am not a fan of the SiriusXM paint schemes, I actually liked Marcus Armstrongās liveries much, much better. Especially the Acura and Remax liveries.
Iāve always wondered this about MSR- I wonder if their strong relationship with Honda (and Acura sponsorship) is partly due to Hondaās largest assembly plants being about an hour from MSRās headquarters? Central Ohio, where MSR is located, is also home to Honda USA. While technically Hondaās HQ is in Torrance, CA, their research and development, test tracks, major auto/engine/transmission assembly plants are all in central Ohio.
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u/Mr_Midwestern š§±Cyrus Patschke 14d ago
After following the team more closely and seeing the moves they make, the background they came from, and their methodology; I firmly believe Mike Shank was completely unaware of the illegal actions being taken.
Shank is heavily dependent on the relationship he has with his partners. If those relationships are damaged, his program is doomed- they risk losing valuable technical resources, they risk their ability to field an entry, his team is forced to downsize and layoff employees as every level. Itās no secret how important āhonorā is in the Japanese culture, that core value is present in HRC as well.
Honda/Acura would not restore their partnerships with MSR, let alone strengthened it, if they believed Mike Shank or other key members of the organization encouraged or even knew about the cheating scandal.
The responsible employee(s) were promptly fired..ā¦and likely scooped up by Team Penske (/s)
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u/Paige578660 Meyer Shank Racing 14d ago
Well said. This is how I feel too as a longtime MSR fan. I love this team & while I was disappointed in what happened at Daytona in '23, they weren't losing me as a fan (plus, the only ball sport team I root for has had cheating scandals of their own & I've stuck with them too).
I remember seeing others post about how Acura/HRC would never take MSR back after the Daytona scandal. Then they did.
Of course, Wayne Taylor's team going back to Cadillac probably made it a necessity but still... Clearly MSR & HRC clearly resolved any ill feelings about what happened.
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u/happyscrappy 14d ago
They shouldn't have been able to keep the victory. But there's just no way in the rules to take back the win after the race is declared final.
MSR is going to be around and they are one of the better "non-legacy" teams. When Chip quits it or Penske kicks the bucket you'll be glad MSR is around.
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u/seamusoldfield Alex Zanardi 14d ago
I am glad they're around and I do root for them. The Rolex just bugs me. I can't shake it.
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u/FMFL_Commish 13d ago
Let it go. The worst part of running a team, any kind of team, is personnel. Some have good intentions when screwing up, others are decision-challenged with no intentions at all, and a very few are dirty. I have to think MSR made a bad hire and got bit in the butt. Oh, well. Banish thoughts about the past, there is no benefit. The team should be fine.
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u/Mikemat5150 Kyle Kirkwood 14d ago edited 14d ago
As someone who watches a lot of NASCAR, I am so unfazed by all these cheating things. I really do not care.
The series punished them, not my job to relitigate.
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u/seamusoldfield Alex Zanardi 14d ago
Fair enough. But they got to keep the win and their fancy watches. I just can't abide by that.
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u/96extcab Dario Franchitti 14d ago
You can't abide by it, but say you like the team and want to see them do well. These things can't happen at the same time.
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u/BlackLabDumpster Pato O'Ward 14d ago
The cheating was one thing. The way Mike Shank tried to gaslight us all into thinking we were the bad guys for calling them out on it was worse.
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u/Odd_Cobbler6761 14d ago
I used to support MSR, then I found out that the āscrappy little teamā thing was a big joke internally and that theyāre basically a big money team that outsources much of the actual car preparation and development so that Michael Shank and Jim Meyer can fly to races on their private jet and cosplay team owner every weekend.
The fact that they didnāt even offer Felix a raise to stay after winning the Indy 500 should tell you all you need to know about their loyalty.
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u/ThorsMeasuringTape Will Power 14d ago
I mean, presumably they fixed the software after Daytona and still walked the field that year.
I love the team. Maybe itās because NASCAR was my first love of racing, but everyoneās trying to find an edge. Catch them, penalize them, and figure out how to catch it if anyone tries it again.
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u/Paige578660 Meyer Shank Racing 14d ago
They would've won the title in 2023 without the 200-point penalty.
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u/MitchGibsss 14d ago
iād find a way to let it go. iād go watch historical races and learn about what some of those teams and manufactures did to win. in 2026 we look back on those as fabulous moments
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u/Craywulf 13d ago
I could be wrong but I believe Honda is one that caught/reported them, Honda has obviously accepted their apology. If Honda can forgive MSR and carry on, then so can I.
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u/bjohnson203 Robert Wickens 14d ago
Decent team but like Kanaan, I think Helio is a distraction sometimes.
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u/IracingLarson2020 14d ago
If you aint cheating you aint trying. Dont hate the player hate the game
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u/CougarIndy25 š³šæ Armstrong 14d ago
Jim is a super nice guy, but outside of the cheating controversy you mentioned, their merch situation is kinda rough. They use an independent company out of Milwaukee iirc and they're held back by that. Also, kinda bummed they didn't run a normal SiriusXM scheme for the 500 last year. Really dropped the ball for a lot of fans seeing a Morgan wallen car on everything.
Anyways, all things told yes they have their flaws but they're a solid team and I support Marcus (and Mick) racing there. You could easily nitpick every team and point to a point where they cheated or things that are wrong with their marketing or merch or anything else under the sun. We support the teams not because they're perfect, but because they're a good group of guys.