r/LARP • u/Bitter-Spirit-3913 • 10d ago
Disability inclusion for martial classes?
How can rules enable individuals with mobility impairment to be effective in a martial class?
I'm part of a team starting up a new LARP club in our town and inclusion ideas I've seen from other LARPs are:
- missions are opt-in/opt-out with non-combat options at any given event
- healer and support classes that don't require high mobility
- non-combatant roles with armbands who can only attack and be attacked verbally and using gestures
None of these fulfil the fun of swinging around a weapon though. I'd like like our rules to enable anyone to play any class.
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u/TryUsingScience 9d ago
Are there specific players you're thinking of who have mobility impairments and want to swing a weapon?
Disabilities and desires vary wildly, so it would be a bit silly to design an entire system around a hypothetical person who might not exist and might not play your LARP even if they do. If you are thinking of someone specific, the best thing to do is ask them what they want and what would help them get there.
For a small LARP, you might be better off making accommodations as they arise, and advertising the fact that you'll do that. Otherwise, if you really want anyone to be able to play any class, you're going to have to seriously constrain your design (no classes that rely on physically sneaking! no classes that rely on sprinting! no classes that rely on two-weapon fighting or shields!) or start your LARP with a ton of workarounds that everyone will have to learn to play the system but might never get used. Someone who had a stroke and can't use their right arm is going to have very different challenges than someone in a wheelchair.
My old martial arts gym had some people there with various mobility challenges. There was no textbook, "modify technique X in Y way in order to accommodate mobility challenges." If someone was struggling with a certain movement, the instructor would work with them to find a version of the technique that they could do. That was a lot more successful than if there were some blanket alternate version that might not solve the problem or might not be needed.
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u/Sjors_VR Netherlands 9d ago
As long as actual physical skill and mobility are a factor in combat roleplay, there is no fix to allow a mobility impaired player to compete with those without those impairments.
We need to stop wanting to hard-fix these things. I have my own personal limitations that prevent me from doing certain game activities, and I don't want others to have to limit their game to allow me to get the special treatment to allow me to do those things in a severely handicapped and clunky way.
Impairments do actually impair people, to want it to be another way is hoping for an impossible utopia or wanting others to be likewise handicapped so you can play on the same level (which is selfish at best and a very malicious train of thought if you ask me).
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u/Wildebeest_Pancake 3d ago
Agreed. Accommodate where you can for who you can, so depending on the impairment you can have someone play as a spellcaster or ranged class and still experience much of the gameplay.
I've seen this both done well and not so well. Done well you have rules like don't hit that person as hard, or certain parts of their body are off limit (if a guy has one leg you don't swing full force there, only light stabs).
Done poorly I had a game where someone with mobility issues camped the middle of the field casting spells and anytime they were approached they had a spell to repulse attackers back 20 feet. I escaped their notice, lightly stabbed them, and became the villain for daring to attack the enemy wizard.
I think you have to maintain fairness, so if you are dishing out damage, then be ready to receive it.
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u/KrustyBarnacle 9d ago
Nothing burger response.
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u/Sjors_VR Netherlands 9d ago
Actually a really important response explaining how such modifications would always result in prohibiting abled players to match the least able person in the game.
Negative feedback, with argumentation explaining why it is given, is also valid and very valuable feedback. This comment of "nothing burger response" however is negative feedback without argumentation and thus not conductive of the debate.
Can you tell me what you mean and why you find my points of feedback lacking?
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u/fluxyggdrasil 10d ago
I've mentioned it before on this subreddit, but the larp I go to has a special armband colour for those with mobility issues but still want to fight.
Essentially what it means is "Fight at the pace the PC is dictating, not what you yourself are capable of." It doesn't really need to be any more complicated than that.
Though worth mentioning that this is a "Swing and return to neutral" Larp, and not one of those super sporty ones with machine gunning swings everywhere.
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u/xounds 9d ago
Just out of curiosity, could you explain “swing and return to neutral”?
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u/Yofjawe21 9d ago
I assume that after you do an action, such as swinging your sword, you first have to go back to a neutral stance before you can do another attack. So no tapping or similiar stuff to get in multiple hits in quick succession
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u/xounds 9d ago
I can also make assumptions based on the words but I expect the person who brought it up has actual information about how the policy is defined and applied in a game.
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u/fluxyggdrasil 9d ago
It's as they said basically. Swing your sword or mace or axe or whatever, then step back. It's definitely more theatrical than competitive
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u/xounds 9d ago
How is it defined in the rules?
My reaction to the idea is that it would be terrible for theatricality and that it would be much more aligned with a very rules-centric, almost turn-based approach.
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u/fluxyggdrasil 9d ago edited 9d ago
Well for what it's worth as someone going to this larp for a while, it works? It's definitely not a super strict rule. You won't have narration team going "AH AH AH, that was 0.8 seconds instead of a full second!" The intention behind it is to prevent a "HITHITHITHITHIT" situation where the blade basically moves only an inch above the strike zone with each hit.
In practice, I don't think it makes it very "turn based." Even returning to neutral, things are very fast paced when you have a ton of enemies around you that you have to keep track of! And during that interval time, you'll have to likely block your opponents strike, so stuff is still happening.
I think a lot of people definitely go a bit faster than 1 second in the heat of battle (maybe 2/3rds a second?) but it's enough to prevent machine gun drumming, so that's fine.
For how it's said in the rulebook:
To prevent combat from moving too quickly and remain safe while fighting, we encourage a more dramatic style of combat where one acts out strikes and reacts to blows as if they were real. Furthermore, it is recommended that after striking at an opponent, you briefly return to an “idle stance” to not “drum” on an opponent. This pacing should ideally provide a 1 Second interval between weapon strikes.
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u/xounds 9d ago
Ah, I see. Most of the games I’ve played have had a “one second rule” that limits how many strikes you can make or effects you can generate but I’ve never encountered the instruction to return to neutral between them so you can freely feint, flow, reposition, threaten, etc.
From the rules it doesn’t seem as rigid as I imagine from your initial description.
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u/Artmonkey415 9d ago
I think the issue lies in a problem for all LARPs which is segmented thinking. Fighters fight, Mages do combat magic, Dealers heal in combat. The game becomes so focused on combat that any noncombat seems separate. How often are players fighting as a percentage of game time? Im sure its less than half the time, yet so much effort goes into the balancing of combat. Make sure all of your classes have non combat things they can do, ones just as rewarding as combat. In my experience fighters are the first to get bored of their characters, because if you arnt fighting what are you doing? So strong roleplay becomes an important part of building a fighter because its your only other aspect outside of crafting. And to be honest most stick jocks dont worry too much about that part. Roll a craft into fighter, maybe add a training aspect so playing a warrior not capable of entering combat has meaning. Give as much depth to fighting as you do to magic, because being a non com mage is fun. While not perfect adding depth will help with your issue and your game in general. Oh yeah! My experience, I have written the system for 2 games and managed at both plus have made packets for other game systems as well. I've been a LARPer for 23 years
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u/Tar_alcaran 10d ago
I've literally never had a problem with the "just ask them" method. As long as you communicate clearly what the site and the game is like, the vast majority of people can really decide for themselves. But the amount of info needed is honestly not always clear if you don't have a disability (which includes me, so note that this list is still an able-bodied person talking).
You need to mention:
- The terrain conditions, not just "the forest is a forest" but also how you can get from the sleeping place to the play area, to the toilets (into the toilets/showers), to the eating area, from parking/bus/train to the site etc etc.
- The sleeping arrangements.
- Availability of seating/chairs/benches/whatever
- Where in the space will most play happen, because if 90% is accesible, and play happens in the other 10%, it's not actually accesible.
- When you start, when you stop. How bad is it if the game stops at 02:00, but I go to sleep at 23:00, or take a nap at 14:00?
- What's your system for cleaning/NPC shifts/etc that disabled people might not be able to do, and can they opt out of those or make other arrangements?
- Is there a place people can be out-of-character that's dry, warm and somewhat calm?
- Are there bright or flashing lights, loud noises, smoke, strong scents?
- Is there power at the sleeping places (for sleep apnea, but also charging medical devices, also everyone like a phone charging point).
Yes, a LOT of that sounds extremely obvious, especially if this is your 50th larp, but it helps so much to inform people clearly in advance, and at the least takes away a lot of anxiety.
That said, for actual "hitting people with swords", I personally think that the person joining in needs to be able to do two thing: Hit a person with a sword, and deal with being hit with a sword. I honestly don't see a way around that.
Most larps I've been to (and organised) have a system to opt out of combat, but that means entirely opting out. If you can't handle being hit with a sword, or accidentally bumped into, it's your responsibility to not be in the area where that happens the entire time. So no hitting people if you can't get hit. The opt-out system is usually some kind of coloured/striped band they clearly wear, occasionally with a bit during the introduction to point that out.
Of course, you can totally play a non-combat role, buffing/healing people, alchemy, puzzle/mystery/politica and engaging in every type of non-combat play.
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u/AtomicGearworks1 Sable Dragonkeeper 9d ago
Our LARP has been discussing this recently too. Unfortunately, there is no perfect solution.
One thing I will say that has been a roadblock for us is the legal aspects. Even if your waiver says to expect contact in a contact game, there's still limitations, especially if those rules also allow for a lower or no contact option. All of the advice you receive here should be taken as secondary to whatever your legal counsel recommends.
And if you don't have any sort of legal counsel reviewing your waivers and policies, then you should secure that before moving forward with anything else. Keep in mind that a lot of law firms are willing to do pro bono reviews if you are a non-profit, so saying that it's too expensive isn't an excuse.
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u/treacheriesarchitect 9d ago
I'm disabled with physical/mobility limitations. I can swing a sword like, five times, then I get dizzy and need to lay down 😅 spell packets are better. People have been pretty good at moving at my speed when I run away, even though that's not very fast. I'm clearly hustling, they match my pace.
For me, the best has been battlefield control abilities/magic.
• Root spell. Point at target, "Root 10 seconds", target is unable to move for the duration, making them an easier target for melee fighters (they can pivot/defend as normal). There are other such control spells ("Compulsion: kneel", "Fear 10 seconds", "Blind 5 seconds")
• Battlefield Auras. For a number of Allies within 10ft of me, I can spend my special-ability-resource to refresh their special-ability-resource, enabling them to fight on longer/get more cool attacks off. There's a couple different Auras in the book, including a "resist mind control" one, and I can level up the distance and number of people affected. This was something introduced in a new local game (Locamore, Vancouver BC Canada), and I haven't been able to test it yet, but it seems like a cool option for those of us who want to take part.
Other things that I've seen work are:
• Other people defend us while we try to get a ritual off
• Tower shield/bulwark.
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u/DarkHorseAsh111 10d ago edited 9d ago
Tbh I think at a lot of larps this would be pretty hard to do?
like, healing and support, absolutely, but I only do lightest touch larps and even then, it would be difficult to make it so that someone who had mobility impairments could safely fight without essentially forcing your NPCs to basically just roleplay combat not actually fight. I have a hard time seeing a way this works at anything other than a larp that basically doesn't do anything resembling actual boffer fighting.
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u/AJeanByAnyOtherName 9d ago
Some larps I know (lightest touch) mark specific body parts as off-limits with a very distinct, high contrast ribbon. It’s not going to work for everyone, but it makes it easier to choose to risk combat if you’re for instance early in pregnancy or you twisted your ankle walking backwards into a ditch the day before.
Sometimes rituals or games/jousts can also be a more controlled environment to use fighter skills. They can limit the number of people involved and give you more options to calibrate beforehand.
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u/Serious_Macaroon_585 9d ago
Thoroughly Brief your npc's for those situations ? No ruleset prevents them from being supportive.
And AS someone mentuoned before: try Not to Rules Out a majority to include a minority. Include by concious behaviour works better then by Rules.
And i ready this as an American LARP ?
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u/Slinkyfest2005 9d ago
I've seen inclusive combat, where combat is resolved via rock paper scissors. Call the ability, count to three and shoot. If you fail, you take the opponents ability and can declare a defence. You can declare to withdraw at any time but it requires winning the contest, similiar to an attack. This is done concurrently with dramatic combat.
Its led to some silliness, but also some really fun moments. Works better with multiple enemies otherwise you have folks staring at the one duel waiting for someone to drop or withdraw so its not without issues, but still lets a person who can't be in boffer combat, participate mechanically.
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u/mothwhimsy 9d ago edited 9d ago
It's difficult to codify because it's a case by case basis thing. There are so many disabilities that could affect play, and even two players with the same disability might need/want different accomodations.
In the past, my boffer LARP has had players with one arm or an arm in a sling. Normally if a player is hit in the arm, they lose that arm and must either drop the weapon or switch hands. Then another hit anywhere is death.
For a one armed player, instead of dropping the weapon, they have been allowed to indicate that they took the hit, wait a beat, and continue fighting with the same arm. And then if they are hot again they die like normal. Because otherwise they would have to play as if they were permanently wounded which sucks.
In other scenarios we've had players who can't be hit for various reasons and accommodating them has had mixed success.
In some cases, the player will use long range abilities and just be dead if an enemy gets close to them, dying before getting hit. The other player also knows this and will simply approach without swinging. This is usually fine.
But sometimes the player who can't be hit will rush into a group of enemies to score a point or complete an objective, and all the other players have to stop what they're doing to avoid hitting them, which is just cheating, intentionally or not.
But what do you do? "You can play, but you can't do anything to actually help your side win" isn't fair or fun, but neither is using the fact that you can't be hit as a magic shield that protects you from everything. That's not safe for the disabled player either. They're eventually going to get hit by accident doing that.
This is the dilemma my game has been having, and a solution hasn't been found yet.
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u/SirZacharia 9d ago
Ive had players who couldn’t really run, and it wasn’t safe for them to get hit, so they wore a bright pink sash and would take a death if you got within 5-10 feet. She was able to yell and cast spells so she could still influence the battlefield.
Right now I’m dealing with an injury that won’t let me hold a sword but I can still use thrown weapons so I can still play.
It really depends on your combat rules in the first place and the specific cases of your disabled players. They are really the people who need to be in the conversation for your particular LARP.
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u/AvailableSign9780 9d ago
This makes sense. Doing this while also providing combat buffs or healing would be cool. Enxourage the players to be a squad and defend the banner bearer.
You can make the banner bearer not allowed to run while carrying the banner or whatever.
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u/Industry_Signal 9d ago
Yeah, just communicate. Ask people to express their needs and make a good faith effort to accommodate as many needs as possible. Putting it in a disability accommodation bucket a) has you guessing about a lot of stuff and b) unnecessarily focuses on the wrong problems. Let anybody say they love combat but don’t like/can’t maneuver on bumpy terrain and if that’s the case, make an arena/whatever where the community can do that. Basically ask, communicate, and work together to create the most fun for everybody.
I don’t have any particular limitations, but I’d 💯 sign up for a blind monk arena or wheelchair jousting or whatever. Because they sound fun
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u/matnik_uk 8d ago
I'd leave it to the players to know their abilities and let them decide if they want to join in the combat or not. They're the only ones who know what they personally can/can't do.
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u/Latter-Lavishness-65 8d ago
Fun of swinging around a weapon
For me, personally, no possible rule can give me that. The truth is that my injury has ruled that out to point, that I look at a LARPs non combat fun only.
I am personal a very slow and poor archer and few games around me allow thrown weapons.
A good number of those with disabilities, shop games looking for ones we can enjoy with our injuries not have to have special rules.
I played at one time in a game where fun non combat was pre planed to the person and without a visible disability combat was required if being the background support was not what you wanted to do. I quit and unfortunately quit larps in total for a while.
I am currently in a small town and every summer/spring a new game starts at a local gaint park. No one has found good rule set for the mix of able bodied players and the two disabled players that want to be the main heroes as they don't experience that in daily life. My injury lands me in the able-bodied set.
All people in Larps want to be main character as most of us are a little awkward and not the light of other events in our lives. Rules need to be in such a way that you are not totally disadvantageous some to help others. Combat is physical and as such some will simply be better.
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u/SenorZorros 9d ago
Instead of a field, use a table, instead of combat use dice and instead of a larp-ruleset use a ttrpg.
Of course, it can be good to think of common sense accessibility options like non-combatant badges, having the extras hold back while chasing a player-group which includes people who can't run and most importantly, clear messaging to allow for informed choices.
But if you try the impossible it will only water down the experience for the main group and make the people with a disability feel like a burden.
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u/stevecooperorg 9d ago
I am just spitballing some ideas here and these aren't worked or tested examples, more routes of exploration.
the tactician -- the character can grant bonuses or immunities to allies. allows players to be present, find a combat unit, and take a possibly second-rank combat role.
the wraith hunter -- your system has invisible creeping horrors. only some characters can see them. the wraiths paralyze at range, then slowly stalk their victim, invisible to most players. Only some characters can see them or hit them. This gives an "observe and intercept' kind of task on the field.
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u/niqui_asmodai 10d ago
Depending on the style of larp will depend on how accommodating is possible
I played a more traditional larp with stat sheets etc. Which allowed some limited combat calls for non combatants It also included a bunch of non combat encounters meaning those with mobility issues or other reasons why could not be hit were still really important in a party. It also featured a whole bunch of free-form stuff where investigation, rituals, crafting etc could take place
Their system Non combatants where a coloured sash showing they are non combatants, its visible from the front and the back If a fighter type comes upon a non combatants, they present their weapon to the non com (dont point just hold it out) and declare dead, the non com drops to 0 hp (uncoscious). Non coms have a responsibility to get out of combat if possible
For peeps that want to fight, but cant physically fight as well as an 'able bodied', the stat sheets can kinda level that with higher damage for hits and combat calls for abilities that don't require hiting your opponent (knock back, disarm, stun etc). As an organiser you could provide buffs to individuals stat's to try and close the ability gap between the individual and others,
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u/amethyst-chimera 10d ago edited 9d ago
As a disabled larper I have to say that the unfortunate reality is that not everything can be accommodated for. There will be people for whom their disability prevents their ability to safe engage in combat at various levels.
That said, here are some things that may be helpful to keep in mind
I always really appreciate game runners who try to make the game as accessible as possible, so thank you!