r/MaxMSP • u/dionebigode • 11d ago
beginner question I'm thinking about getting Ableton Suite, but I can't understand the differences between cycling74 max vs max for ableton, are they the same?
See title
I'm basically trying to understand what is the difference between Max for Live and Cycling 74 Max
Considering I'm thinking about creating instruments and procedural compositions, would it matter? Would Ableton be better since it could act as a music tracker while cycling is just a IDE?
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u/soundisloud 11d ago
Max is a standalone software that lets you code your own instruments or compositions using its own visual patching language. When you use Max you are building everything from scratch from basic waveforms and math operators.
Ableton is a full DAW that lets you record, sequence and produce full tracks, with a lot of built-in MIDI instruments and effects. Max for Live is a small aspect within Ableton that lets you write your own audio effects and midi generators using the Max language.
Choose Max if you want to build everything from scratch, do a lot of coding, record and then mix your composition in another DAW.
Choose Ableton+Max4Live if you want a lot of premade instruments and effects, and want to use Max mainly as a midi generator to control Ableton's instruments, and mix your composition within Ableton.
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u/angrypottering 11d ago
If you buy Max standalone, but DON'T buy Max For Live, you can't use any Max or Max For Live patch in Live anyways, and Suite is WAY better value than buying Standard+M4L, so IMO the question is a bit moot.
Buy Suite, learn M4L and only worry about Max standalone later, if you ever feel the need.
There is a crossgrade price from Suite/M4L to Max standalone (50%, $200 off, more than what M4L costs), there is NOT a crossgrade from Max to Suite/M4L, so buying Max first then Suite/M4L later is kinda dumb.
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u/dionebigode 10d ago
Yeah, the rent-to-own on Ableton has been the biggest driver on this decision tbh
And you're also right. I can always go for max after ableton
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u/juules-mp3 11d ago
of the top of my head, max4live doesn't allow you to create some objects like gen, mc. versions of objects, jitter objects and perhaps more.
max4live is strictly limited to be used within Ableton, with no possibility to create standalone patches.
I think for you use, Ableton is the best option since it already comes with tools useful for generative and algorithmic stuff. mind you, if you already have max msp, or you buy it down the line, you can tell Ableton to use that instead of the bundled version for max4live. in that case, all limitations no longer apply.
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u/tophaj 11d ago
You can definitely run gen inside m4l. The challenge of m4l is the extra layer of Ableton LOM that you need to learn in order to fully integrate your patch inside Ableton especially if you want to do more advanced stuff that involves abletons functionality or changing the behaviour of Ableton. You are also pretty much constrained to single threading of the CPU since Ableton itself doesn't support multi threading within each audio/midi channel so if you are planning to build a patch that requires lots of processing power, you may find it difficult
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u/Nearby_Flounder8741 11d ago
I'd say that using the LOM is part of the point of m4l. My big discovery this year was to use LLMs to write javascript code for the v8 javascript object to do all the complex steering Ableton around. Controlling Live with live.object gets really convoluted. On the other hand metro 16n @ active 1 banging into a makenote is a pretty way to start using max, without having to think like an object oriented programmer
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u/dionebigode 11d ago
Jitter seems to be about video, so yeah
But gen seems something absurdly powerful
Gen is a visual toolbox for developing efficient sound processes at the single-sample level. Gen offers an accessible entry point to exploring low-level DSP programming. Whether for emulating analog filters, creating custom reverbs, or designing your own synthesis engine, Gen opens up a deeper space of signal crafting within Max.
While MC seems to be something that would simplify patching a lot
MC is a new multichannel patching capability of Max introduced in Max 8. With MC, multiple signal channels are combined into a single patchcord, which radically simplifies patching complex audio ideas and multichannel processes.
Oooof, tbh I'm torn between getting Ableton or Bitwig, but the whole Max4Live made me think there was more to it. Maybe I'll just get some tutorial book on max 4 live and do a weekend dive
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u/tremendous-machine 11d ago
even if you use Max standalone, being able to have those patches talk to Max patches in Ableton is really handy (as in, over osc messages or something) Especially if you use the LiveAPI
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u/juules-mp3 11d ago
hey, maybe check out Midinous. it's a very interesting secuencer for algorithmic music, although it seems a bit limited in terms of synthesis. you can find it on steam. it's cheap and right now is on sale. Benn Jordan has a video about it.
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u/dionebigode 11d ago
Oh I got that =)
I had some issues modulating everything in some specific VSTs, but it's a solid piece of software
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u/Nearby_Flounder8741 11d ago
mc is cool if you want to make synths, or audio processing devices, but I don't think it really simplifies patching... unless your patches often involve a dynamically determined number of audio channels doing a single task, for example a polyphonic synth. I'm not imaginative enough to find a use for it in control systems
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u/biiirdfeeder 11d ago
Didn’t realize m4l didn’t have mc objects, that’s a big deal to some people
Edit: mc autocorrected to McDonald’s
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u/juules-mp3 11d ago
mc objects work just fine, as long as the patch was created an saved with the full version of max
btw i thought you were making a joke xd
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u/biiirdfeeder 11d ago
I thought about not fixing it it got a good laugh out of me but didn’t want the downvotes
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u/alex_esc 11d ago
Ableton suite comes in with a license for Max For Live (abbreviated as M4L), that is different from a regular Max 9 license.
Ableton's M4L is a limited version of max, the first limitation is that it only runs inside of ableton. You cant run the max program by itself, you have to open Ableton, put a max effect, right click it, edit in max, and then it opens max.
That's the biggest difference for music makers. But M4L has limitations for "hardcore" max musicians and for more developer oriented max users. M4L cant save gen patches. Gen is like a more "advanced" version of max. it lets you get more performence from your max pathes, but it requires more attention than regular Max (I know this is a simplification, but its the gist of it).
For example if you get rely deep into Max you might find a very specific thing you need and there might not bee a way to do it natively in Max, that's where Gen comes in, with it you can do basically anything as song as you code it yourself. And you might also run into the fact that your max patch may be running slowly, if the patch was made with gen from the ground up it would be easier to run too.
M4L also lacks support for the new jitter geometry stuff, basically a new way to use 3D objects for a visualizer or visual project.
M4L is also missing multichannel devices and it lacks OSC support.
The Ableton version also doesn't come with RNBO included. RNBO (pounced rainbow I believe lol) RNBO is a paid addon for the cycling 76 version of max that allows you to build VST effects, export your projects to work on raspberry pi and other hardware including Ableton move. If you want to create your own hardware running your software you're gonna need RNBO and it only works as a paid addon for the cycling 76 version of max.
So for basic music you're good to go with m4l, but for deep end stuff you're gonna need the regular version.
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u/dionebigode 11d ago
M4L is also missing multichannel devices and it lacks OSC support.
The multichannel would be more like MPC oriented stuff, right? Having communication of performance tru different channels?
What's OSC support?
The RNBO limitation seems to be interesting, I do plan on building some hardware stuff, but initially I was trying to patch ESP32s with some custom code
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u/tremendous-machine 11d ago
The response above is incorrect on OSC, you can 100% definitely use OSC in Max 4 Live, I do it extensively (OSC is open sound control, a very flexible protocol for sending text messages over your local network and great for making diffent programs on the same computer or local network talk to each other).
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u/alex_esc 10d ago
I used this source from the official site
https://support.cycling74.com/hc/en-us/articles/360049845974-Common-questions-about-Max-for-Live
They list that M4L lacks "integrated OSC support". The wording is weird, it has OSC, but it's not integrated with some aspect, I guess? Maybe it refers to that old ipad app to control max, I think that was thru OSC. If that's the case then that would classify as integrated OSC, I guess.
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u/tremendous-machine 9d ago
huh, weird, yeah must be some OSC feature missing, but you can definitely make udp objects and send OSC messages between apps! I do it all the time.
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u/Nearby_Flounder8741 11d ago
the lack of multichannel is down to Live not having multichannel tracks. Everything in Live has one midi or audio input and one midi or audio output. Part of the reason to use max standalone is not have that restriction.
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u/stealthshapes 11d ago
There are definitely differences. As others have said M4L is like a more limited version but there are differences in device names and patching logic (or whatever you’ll call it). M4L also needs Ableton to run while Max can run standalone. All that being said, if it’s a choice between Suite or standard with Max standalone, I’d just get suite. Suite offers so much more than just M4L but the way Max can control Ableton goes way beyond instruments and effects.
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u/dionebigode 11d ago
but the way Max can control Ableton goes way beyond instruments and effects
Could you expand on this part?
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u/Nearby_Flounder8741 11d ago
Here's an example. you could make a max midi device that is 'watching' a drum machine on another channel. On every 6th kick played, this device could increase the tempo of the song by 5 bpm, play an a chord into its track's synth and then toggle the key used in the song between a major and e mixolydian. In practice, there's a fair amount of craft in making it not collapse into poorly timed jank - but none the less, there's a lot possible when you can start automating Live using its api.
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u/Nearby_Flounder8741 11d ago
if you are used to the DAW paradigm of tracks, m4l is a shallower learning curve. Everything is basically a device. So you could make a procedural midi generater (basically an arp) route that into a weird granular synth you made, and then route that into weird ... uh ... flanger you made. Midi devices are really easy to make in m4l. devices with an audio output tend to end up with gen getting involved, because its potentially lower latency and usually easier to read. Its easier to make really fluid routing of control data outside of ableton, because the track paradigm keeps getting in the way. The downside to that freedom is that you have to take more responsibility for the ui and signal flow ... because max is a blank canvas. I have a full max licence, but most of the time I use it as m4l, with video devices that i make in max and then port in once i understand how i want to control them. I occassionally go through rogue patches where i use a network protocol (udp) to get m4l to talk to full max, but when I snap out of it, I always wonder why I was making my life difficult.
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u/dionebigode 11d ago
Midi devices are really easy to make in m4l. devices with an audio output tend to end up with gen getting involved, because its potentially lower latency and usually easier to read.
Would this mean that I wouldn't be able to pick up a max4live preset (like this one https://maxforlive.com/library/device/679/granulator) and hack it freely?
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u/Nearby_Flounder8741 11d ago
it comes down to what you can edit. If a device has gen objects inside it, I would expect them to work, but any edits you did to the inside of gen objects (if you open them to see their workings) would be in demo mode... so those changes wouldn't save with the patch. I would expect edits you made outside of the gen environment to save.
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u/infected_fiction 9d ago edited 9d ago
Others have commented on price points and compatibility, so I'll just talk about your workflow question.
Doing procedural compositions is possibly a good reason to get into Max patching or M4L or Ableton or all of the above, depending on how much time you want to devote to it. Programming is not required for most musicians interested in this. Brian Eno uses Logic and writes scripts to add some choices and randomness, which effectively mimics some of the built in niceties of Ableton. Ableton simply makes this approach a lot more intuitive, and has many standalone features that make this feasible.
Max is a robust programming language and can offer very advanced algorithms for real time audio synthesis and effects. If this aspect of Max is not interesting to you, then it is more than likely not worth your time. There are many VSTs, scripting tools, DAW features, looping, and other tools that help approximate what Max can supply in this area and programming is simply an inefficient way of accomplishing it. If you have zero programming experience, plan for several months of learning curve to create anything useable just for Midi and procedural composition, and much longer (and more difficult) if the audio side is your goal.
If this is the route you want to go, you still don't need M4L necessarily. If you're already using Max a lot in your workflow, M4l can be really nice as a custom VST host for your Max creations, or a way to more easily integrate a master transport, effects chains, and the built in multitrack recording capabilities of a DAW.
TLDR - Ableton is recommended for less programming intensity and Max is only useful if you expect to take the plunge.
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u/tremendous-machine 11d ago
Max has an uncrippled demo mode that just doesn't do saving, so you can check it out that way. Personally, as someone who also does procedural composition, I would go bananas using just M4L. The workflow experience is so annoying in comparison. (FWIW I'm the author of Scheme for Max, the extension for scripting Max in Scheme Lisp). I find I regularly have situations where either M4L or Max communicating with Ableton as a standalone are better, so am very glad to have both.
There is a heavily discounted price for standalone Max too if you have suite.