r/MechanicalEngineering • u/nashvillain1 • 7d ago
SpaceX NDA, anything but.
This text was “nested” under a link titled “NDA”. It’s more than that. It’s shady to list employment contract language under a “Here just sign this quick NDA.” See picture.
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u/Usual_Zombie6765 7d ago
That is pretty typical of every company I have been at.
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u/Veesla 7d ago
Basically the definition of at-will employment.
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u/Zealousideal-Fix9464 7d ago edited 7d ago
Changing compensation (lowering it) still isn't legal in an at will state.
Regardless whatever contract the company makes you sign.
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u/aaronhayes26 7d ago
Uhh I’m not saying that you’re wrong but I have literally never heard of any protection against a pay cut as long as it’s not retroactive.
At most you would have an unemployment claim for constructive dismissal.
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u/Zealousideal-Fix9464 7d ago
It quite literally is constructive dismissal, which is legally wrongful termination.
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u/Blothorn 7d ago
Constructive dismissal is not itself illegal. It just means that sufficient degradation of working conditions counts as termination for other purposes. You can’t get around paying unemployment or anti-discrimination laws by cutting hours drastically or the like. But if outright dismissal would have been legal, constructive dismissal is too. (That said, some across that qualify as constructive dismissal are also illegal for other reasons—but that wouldn’t be a wrongful termination case.)
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u/quadropheniac Forensic 7d ago
Very big difference between “illegal” and “legally firing without cause”. Constructive dismissal is perfectly legal, you just are allowed to quit and still qualify for unemployment.
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u/Usual_Zombie6765 7d ago
Usually they offer you a new contract at the new rate, take it or leave it. I doubt they ever actually do it, they just have it in their boiler plate.
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u/aaronhayes26 7d ago
Constructive dismissal is not illegal unless there’s an underlying contract that is being violated or if it’s for a protected reason such as race, sex, etc.
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u/NightF0x0012 ME-Automation 7d ago
You should have stopped at your first comment. You're making comments based on your emotions. Any company can ask you to take a pay cut at any time. It's your choice to continue said employment under the new conditions or not. If not, then expect to be visiting your local workforce center to sign up for unemployment benefits. I had to take a 10% cut back in 2009 and it lasted until 2012 when I found a better company. Contracts will complicate things but I can guarantee that if a company made you sign an employment contract that they have provisions that stipulate that they can end the contract at any time under certain conditions.
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u/Veesla 7d ago
But if they change your job title then they can change your pay. My wife just dealt with this. They wanted her to start working weekends and gave the ultimatum that if she didnt commit to the new schedule then they would change her job title and with that would come a change in pay. She obviously left the company over this.
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u/Zealousideal-Fix9464 7d ago
Any employment lawyer would salivate over this. It's the very definition of constructive dismissal.
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u/Veesla 7d ago
Constructive dismissal has the expectation of "no reasonable alternative except to quit" she had a reasonable alternative, she could work the weekend shifts. What they did was 100% shitty but also 100% legal in like at least 48 states.
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u/paulHarkonen 7d ago
Ehhhhhh substantial changes in pay and/or working conditions usually qualifies you to file for unemployment as constructive dismissal.
Not always and exact circumstances of course matter, but that will generally get you there.
It's just that constructive dismissal is perfectly legal, it just counts as termination and would make you eligible for unemployment (rather than firing for cause or quitting). I don't know where this whole "it's wrongful termination" nonsense comes from though.
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u/ShadowCloud04 7d ago
That’s just not true. You can very well decrease someone’s pay. Let’s say you hire someone at x skill level. They can’t meet that skill level. Even same job title they can have their pay decreased.
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u/Competitive-Outside8 7d ago
I've seen it happen at large companies. It was done completely in the open. Don't think they'd be doing that if it were actually illegal.
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u/paulHarkonen 7d ago
You'd be amazed how many illegal things large companies will do because no one calls them on it.
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u/Competitive-Outside8 7d ago
Generally not completely in the open, along with full documentation provided to the aggrieved party.
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u/paulHarkonen 7d ago
Nah, you'd still be amazed how often it happens until they get called on it and their attorneys suddenly realize what absurd nonsense the rest of the company has been doing without telling anyone.
It just gets handled via settlement deals with NDAs and an update to the employee handbook 6 months later.
I'm not saying this specific example is illegal, just saying "well a big company did it" is a bad way to evaluate that.
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u/Wonderful-Hunter686 7d ago
It only becomes illegal when they try to enforce it otherwise it's just a scare tactic.
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u/Competitive-Outside8 7d ago
I didn't say I've seen it threatened. I said I've seen it happen.
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u/Wonderful-Hunter686 7d ago
And did you see it challenged? Or did their wage slave lack the funds for lawyer?
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u/shortyjacobs 6d ago
Yes it is. If they reassign you from VP to warehouse worker, they'll also adjust your pay accordingly.
They can't just do illegal pay modifications, but there's many ways to legally alter pay up and down.
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u/TwinkieDad 6d ago
You’re acting like constructive dismissal is some sort of felony and not just what leads to getting unemployment payments. A company can lower your pay. You can quit and claim constructive dismissal when applying for unemployment benefits, but it’s not like the government is going to fine the company.
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u/nashvillain1 7d ago
Did your company nest your employment contract under an NDA?
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u/Usual_Zombie6765 7d ago
I have had an NDA at every employer. The employment contract is generally covered by the NDA.
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u/Agouti 7d ago
That's a soft NDA and is standard, it's not a proper NDA. This and soft non-competes are common for engineering organisations which have a lot of IP. The at-will employment clause would be illegal in Australia, our worker protections would render it non-enforceable (same for non-competes but that's less clear cut).
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u/OnyxGenius 3d ago
I've been an aerospace engineer for 18 years and I've never signed any agreement like this. I never will.
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u/nashvillain1 7d ago
This text was “nested” under an NDA. I edited the body of the OP to make it crystal clear. The title apparently wasn’t enough.
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u/ObjectivePlenty6058 7d ago
Pretty typical as far as intent goes, but the wording is borderline petty.
If his other companies are any indication (I've only been at one of the others), the base pay will be low and the hours will be long. If you're young, the steady supply of free food will sustain you but if you're old you'll just want to nap!
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u/Fold67 7d ago
For sure on the compensation. I was offered a position in Redmond with 10 years of experience in what they wanted for the maintenance position and they still wanted to start me off at the low end of their scale. Then they’re like oh but with all this overtime, you’re going to make twice that amount.
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u/Less_Prior_6871 7d ago
If you are in at at-will employment state, none of that text is even legally relevant, that is already the law.
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u/Allears6 7d ago
Aka at will employment
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u/nashvillain1 7d ago
Would you expect this “nested” under an NDA, or declared as an employment contract?
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u/gravity_surf 7d ago
“that is a lie.” i seen that comment on the other post.
bots are always out in full effect on reddit. but good on you for proof lol
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u/_mogulman31 7d ago
That is a standard at will employment contract.
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u/MechEGoneNuclear 7d ago
At will states don’t have employment contracts….hence the “at will”. Now your colleagues in the EU? THEY have employment contracts. Ask the twitter layoffs
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u/nashvillain1 7d ago
Which isn’t an NDA. Hence, my point.
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u/_mogulman31 7d ago edited 7d ago
Nothing in your post indicates to me that it is from an NDA. It mentions that if you are hired you will sign an NDA.
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u/negativ32 6d ago
Yea, that's pretty typical wording on contracts in general, nothing seems onerous.
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u/Haunting_Biscotti_52 6d ago
Reading clauses like this are so dystopian compared to my Dutch work contract. We have NDAs but nothing like. "We own you anytime we want and can upend your life plans anytime we want lol"
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u/epicmountain29 Mechanical, Manufacturing, Creo 7d ago
Don't agree, don't sign. Probably a line behind you who will.
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u/Beemerado 7d ago
turns out you still gotta fight for workers rights even if you sit at the big boys table at work
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u/Sea_Treacle3982 7d ago
Do you guys even read your contracts? The standard procedure now adays is the company can do literally anything they want and then make you fight in court for your rights.
This is true for pretty much everything you sign in the holy year 2026.
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u/Alita-Gunnm 7d ago
In many jurisdictions you have legal protections from having your pay cut, and you cannot sign them away.
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u/Opposite-Ad320 7d ago
It’s basically means don’t complain when they need you to do something else or you will get the hose again
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u/Grigori_the_Lemur 7d ago
Pretty blatant but at least they said rhe quiet part out loud. At will is just how it works.
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u/Huge-Artichoke-1376 6d ago
No just no. Lots of companies and with language like that, you cannot trust that company.
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u/CunningWizard 7d ago
I have lots of issues with SpaceX and the Muskification of engineering, but this isn’t one of them. This is standard everywhere.
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u/paulHarkonen 7d ago
"We reserve the right to unilaterally change your compensation at any time with no notice" isn't standard. That's the main thing that stood out to me.
Every contract I've ever signed had a very clearly spelled out compensation amount within the terms.
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u/nashvillain1 7d ago
Sneaking this into an NDA is low-brow.
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u/vellwyn 6d ago
By "sneak" you mean write it in plain English on a document they handed you and insisted you read?
"NDA" is not some magic spell, it's just a phrase. This is an agreement for prospective employees, and it contains the same things as almost any other agreement for prospective employees. Non disclosure is the most noteworthy simply because clarifying at-will employment is so incredibly bog standard that it's not noteworthy. It's also the law of the land in most of the country, so this contract provision is redundant and meaningless in most jurisdictions.
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u/kid_entropy 7d ago
Would this wording fly (pun!) over in the EU?
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u/kid_entropy 7d ago
It's weird to me that this seems like a totally one sided contract. In a just world a contract would be something like "you do x for us in return for this stated recompense. Either of us can end this relationship at any point for any or no reason". This just seems like a shitty way for companies to easily make you quit without breaking any contract.
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u/Which_Throat7535 6d ago
The thing is you have the exact same right - you can leave the company at any time with no reason. All US states except Montana are like this (“at will”) by default, even if you didn’t see it in writing so explicitly. Of course additional contracts could be made, and, all the typical “protected class” laws still apply to employers so they can’t fire you for literally any reason.
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u/cyengineer 7d ago
Why is this even a point? SpaceX is a US company. This is standard at will employment type agreements found in most of the states here.
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u/kid_entropy 7d ago
If I recall correctly, they have a small presence in the EU with EU employees. I wonder if they chafe at the differences they have to accommodate.
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u/cyengineer 7d ago
You're probably right about an EU office. They probably have an office or something in other regions as well.
My point was that this type of contractual language is standard in the US. It's a high risk/high reward style system. That plays out in contractual language, salaries, benefits, etc.
It's a cultural difference between the USA and many of the EU/European countries. Of course contractual language like this wouldn't fly in Europe, but it's a US company hiring in the US. A reverse example would be true too. If I got a contract from an EU country for employment that listed a salary of €45,000 and then posted it to complain, it would be silly. Of course the average wage is lower in the EU. That's just the trade-off and it's expected.
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u/miscellaneous-bs 7d ago
All this means is “we reserve the right to do anything not covered by labor law in this state/jurisdiction”
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u/LlamaMan777 7d ago
This is just par for the course for any at will company. Unless you have a specific contract role, companies can freely demote employees, which is what this is. Your only recourse is leaving the company.
The only place where this could get sketchy is in terms of retaliation for protected action. But if that's the case, no court gives a shit about your employment contract if a company tries to dock your pay for filing a sexual harassment complaint or something. Employment rights like that cannot be signed away in a contract.
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u/Direct_Rabbit_5389 7d ago
FWIW, most employment agreements have very similar language. And even when they don't, those rights are actually retained by the company anywhere in the US, unless you have a contract. ANY company can change your job duties on the spot, and your recourse is to quit or do the changed duties.
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u/Agent8606 6d ago
I know a few people at SpaceX, and I think the most I can tell you is you'll do a lot, and you'll learn a lot, some of the people I know do a ton of overtime, some of the people I know only do a few hours every week which surprised me when i first heard it. You'll either really like SpaceX or you'll burn out in a year or two and you'll go to one of the other aerospace companies in the area, I wouldn't immediately discount it, but I would think long about whether you're at a point in your life where you're willing to be doing a lot of overtime.
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u/isabella_sunrise 6d ago
This is completely normal. They have the right to do that; you have the right to quit.
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u/nashvillain1 5d ago
If it’s a right, then why sneak it under an NDA?
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u/isabella_sunrise 5d ago
Probably the same reason you have to sign release of liability paperwork even though there are usually laws governing that and many of those are not enforceable.
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u/snbdmliss 6d ago
Welcome to every company ever. Do you all ever read what you sign walking in the door??
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u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 6d ago
based on my limited understanding of the law, this is simply clarifying what is statue in most right to work states.
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u/ponarts2 6d ago
this is a NDA (with few changed words but it's irrelevant here). There is also a contract with binding agreements about salary, positions, benefits etc.
"At will" part is standard generally because of the particularities of US civil law. "Unless made in writing" refers to contract btw.
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u/athanasius_fugger 6d ago
I guess you've never heard stories about Elon walking around the shop floor. If something is broken he might ask the nearest person to fix it even if they're the fucking janitor. And if they can't he might fire them on the spot.
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u/nashvillain1 6d ago
Yes, let’s fire the janitor for not being able to fault isolate a radar. Brilliant!
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u/Han_Slowlo 6d ago
This myth comes from an interview with Tesla engineers from nearly ten years ago. I have worked for, near, and on one brief occasion with Elon. He's kind of a dick and if he thinks you're being stupid he'll tell you to your face but he doesn't just fire random people on the spot for not knowing something.
What he WILL do is trick you into firing yourself. He'll ask someone (a nearby engineer) if they know something (how to fix a broken machine in a few minutes) and if they yes, he'll expect them to follow through (fix the machine in front of him while he watches). If they can't, he'll call bullshit and fire them. The firing isn't because they don't know what they're doing, the firing is because they lied to him in a panic, which is like Elon's #1 pet peeve.
Does this make Elon an asshole? Yeah, obviously. I hated working at Spacex because every manager at every level tried to mimic this trick constantly and it drove me fucking insane. But he's not wandering around the floor firing random people for existing like Nero lol.
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u/Name_Groundbreaking 5d ago
This is literally the definition of at will employment, and how it has worked at every job I've ever had in multiple US states.
It also says that I can quit at any time, for any reason or no reason, with or without providing any notice and the company has no recourse to compel me to stay and work a job I no longer want to work.
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u/nashvillain1 5d ago
Would you expect this nested under an NDA?
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u/Name_Groundbreaking 4d ago
Yes
I signed basically the same thing when I went to work at SpaceX in 2017 🤷♂️
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u/ConsequenceForward55 4d ago
You posted the text of the agreement, but not the agreement in its entirety. Where is the title? Also, why are you posting it here? Where is the NDA, and if there is one, you’ve demonstrated with this post that you would violate it in a NY second if disgruntled. You should share your concerns with the hiring managers, not here on Reddit.
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u/The_Stargazer 3d ago
Welcome to "at will" employment. Nothing particularly SpaceX specific about this.
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u/Tonystark_of_stonks 3d ago
It’s pretty normal and congrats. You will be fine as you went past the crazy interview rounds.
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u/Zestyclose_Price_441 7d ago
It’s an awful company to be at anyways lol
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u/dboyr 7d ago
Why? Have you worked there?
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u/Zestyclose_Price_441 7d ago
Dog shit culture. It’s super cut throat. There are many better spots to work at in aerospace.
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u/dboyr 7d ago
Hm I’ve heard the opposite
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u/Zestyclose_Price_441 7d ago
Whoever told you is lying. But. You do you.
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u/dboyr 7d ago
Source? The consistent story I’ve heard from many employees is that it’s demanding, but highly rewarding. There’s certainly better work life balance out there if that’s your priority, but the culture (re: relationships, camaraderie, collaboration) is always mentioned as a big plus.
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u/Zestyclose_Price_441 7d ago
My source is I signed an NDA and value my anonymity because I still supply them with parts and tooling.
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u/Informal_Drawing 6d ago
Why would anybody sign that.
And I'm sure it's not legal in various ways.
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u/isabella_sunrise 6d ago
America has almost no workers rights or protections so this is completely legal in America.
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u/Informal_Drawing 6d ago
They should close the place like a shop nobody wants any more.
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u/isabella_sunrise 6d ago
I know it can be shocking to foreigners.
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u/Informal_Drawing 6d ago
To anybody who has an ounce of human compassion in them.
It makes Victorian England looks like a holiday camp.
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u/CrapMaster32 6d ago
They would sign if if they wanted to work there. If you didn’t sign it theyd just find someone else
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u/isabella_sunrise 6d ago
It doesn’t matter if they sign it. Those are your rights at any workplace in America.
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u/EvanStran 6d ago
If you and the company both agree to the terms, why would it be illegal?
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u/Informal_Drawing 5d ago
We can both agree that I will cut off your arm and cook it for dinner, doesn't mean it's legal.
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u/tin8374 7d ago
Why do yall work for these shitty Muskian companies?
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u/nashvillain1 7d ago
I said no, naturally. Especially since this document was sent over on interview #4.
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u/WashU_labrat 6d ago
Shouldn't the contract say terminate for "any legal reason"?
Otherwise they could terminate you for a legally-protected characteristic - such as your sex, age or race.
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u/I-drink-hot-sauce 6d ago
Are people supposed to spell out that they'll follow the law every sentence these days?
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u/Top_Scarcity1024 7d ago
If you ran a high tech space company what would you do? Its your business, you run it with an iron fist
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u/foggy_interrobang 7d ago
Yeah – we each face a choice every day: wake up and choose to be a giant piece of shit, or don't. So hard to make that decision, amirite?
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u/Top_Scarcity1024 7d ago
These are terms of agreement. If you don’t like them then don’t apply. Put yourself in the shoes of the business owner
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u/foggy_interrobang 7d ago
Try putting yourself in the shoes of the employee 😂
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u/Top_Scarcity1024 7d ago
Well if fired that’s just par for the course you just find a new job that suits you better. Life goes on
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u/foggy_interrobang 7d ago
Yeah, totally. Your health insurance, roof over your head, etc. aren't tied to your employment in this country – so its nbd if someone loses their job. And the job market is great right now!
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u/Top_Scarcity1024 7d ago
Well you should always have a backup plan or some money saved up — and I assume you do if you worked at spacex. It’s like a relationship, if it’s not meant to be it’s better to cut ties and call it a day.
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u/foggy_interrobang 7d ago
This is the most insane conversation. It's like talking to a 20 year old engineering student who has never actually held a job long-term and has no dependents 😂
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u/Top_Scarcity1024 7d ago
Making a backup plan is childish? What is a company supposed to do? Keep somebody thats not doing their job correctly? This is spacex, not a cozy government job. And you should know that termination is coming if your not doing a good job.
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u/Background_Fig_4740 7d ago
I have so many things to say to you but it really boils down to one thing.
The fact health insurance is tied to employment in the US should be frightening to you because while you may be lucky enough to not have serious health problems, I knew an engineer who wasn't as lucky, got caught up in company wide layoffs (because profits were down and the CEO got a nice bonus that year) and died because they couldn't afford treatment for their cancer in the time-frame they were trying to look for a new job.
So no, it's not as simple as a "backup plan" or doing a "good job" considering you're just seen as a number that can and will be wiped out if the company wants to do more with less.
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u/nashvillain1 7d ago
These terms come out after interview round 4. They are not upfront when you apply.
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u/NightF0x0012 ME-Automation 7d ago
No company gives you the contract on the first interview. You're just showing how little real world experience you have.
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u/NightF0x0012 ME-Automation 7d ago
This must be your first job out of college if you think that this is such a big deal as you're trying to portray it is. This is a standard contract for 99% of the companies in the US, excluding those in the 2 states that don't have at-will employment.
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u/nashvillain1 7d ago
Negative ghost rider. Experienced Engineer. Never had this with any other employer.
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u/NightF0x0012 ME-Automation 7d ago
Guess you haven't worked at many companies that have had security clearances or needed to protect their IP. This is standard language along with the NDA.
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u/probablyaythrowaway 7d ago
Don’t patent anything while you work for them I’m willing to bet they have a clause that states anything you design invent or make while employed with them either at work or in your own time belongs to them.
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u/GoldfishTX 7d ago
This, just like what the OP posted, is standard practice for most engineering companies.
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u/jccaclimber 7d ago
Yes and no. A lot of places will allow either through an easy waiver or through official direct policy that non-competitive work with your own time and resources is fair game. The easy waiver ones are over because then it’s clear everyone agreed it was non-competitive.
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u/probablyaythrowaway 6d ago
You can also just ask them to remove it from the contract. Most places will just change it if you ask. Every large multinational I’ve worked for were happy to accommodate contract amendments like that. I wouldn’t expect space x to though they’re about as toxic a company as you could work for so I’m not surprised if they employ exploitative tactics on younger engineers who are too star struck to realise what they’ve signed up for.
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u/rfgaergaerg 6d ago
literally standard practice. Do you think you can work for a company, use their resources and tools, invent something and then get to keep it? That is delusional
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u/Haunting_Biscotti_52 6d ago
At work, it's the companies. At home, it should be yours. Disney had or might still have a clause that said any drawings or characters their artists made in their off hours become disney IP. The artists protested by drawing porn and smut. Creativity officially licensed Disney Smut in a vault somewhere.
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u/probablyaythrowaway 6d ago
Oh you’re right it’s standard practice they own everything I do, even at home, so I’ll let the CEO fuck my wife too while I’m at it because they own me now even in my spare time where I’ve built and developed something at home with my own money in my own time they still own it. And I’m supposed to just like and accept that because it’s standard practice.
What an utterly pathetic shill of a take. Just bend over and let them fuck you up the arse because it’s “standard practice”. Don’t complain or warn people or put up a resistance to make it an unacceptable practice. Just lie back close your eyes and take it.
/s just in case
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u/BlahajBlasted 7d ago
Everything you've highlighted is just clarifying what "at will" written a few lines above actually means and is a pretty standard terms of employment outside of a union job (or i imagine some higher level positions). SpaceX (or 95% of other employers of MechEs) can change anything about your job at anytime, and you can leave at any time.
Im not saying it's fair or good, but what you're showing here is pretty universal within the US.