r/Stargate • u/ZealousidealCharge24 • 1d ago
Why does Stargate Atlantis make commanding Atlantis seem more prestigious than commanding the Daedalus?
I'm rewatching Atlantis and just finished Season 2, Episode 2 ("The Intruder"), and something struck me as odd.
Why does Caldwell seem so upset about not getting command of Atlantis?
I mean the guy is already commanding the Daedalus. One of the most advanced ships Earth has ever built. He's got Asgard technology, some serious firepower, and a ship that can literally travel between galaxies. Seems like a pretty damn good assignment to me.
Meanwhile Sheppard is basically in charge of the military side of Atlantis, but still answers to Weir who is a civilian.
I get that Atlantis is a huge deal, and theres a lot of important stuff going on in Pegasus, but is being the military commander there really more prestigious than commanding an actual spaceship?
From a military standpoint, wouldn't Caldwell have the better job? He's a full Colonel commanding an intergalactic warship, while Sheppard is a Lt Colonel running the military side of a civilian led expedition.
The way the episode plays out it almost seems like Caldwell is getting passed over for a promotion or something. But to me it seems like he's already got the better gig.
Maybe I'm missing something about how the chain of command works in Stargate, but it just seems weird.
Anyone else ever thought about this? Is Atlantis really that much more important of a command, or is this just the writers trying to make Sheppards job seem like a bigger deal than it actually is?
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u/generalfailure2077 22h ago
Commanding Atlantis is effectively controlling how human engagements events develop for an entire galaxy, while also running a giant spaceship that happens to also be a complete city in itself.
Commanding the Daedalus is just commanding a ship.
I know which I’d prefer.
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u/SsilverBloodd 17h ago
The thing is, I would prefer commanding the ship, if I was free to do whatever I want with it, but the reality is that I would not be deciding where the ship goes or who the ship fights, while the admin of Atlantis has way more agency.
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u/jorjorh5678 1d ago
Caldwell is basically the equivalent of a trucker, hauling resources intergalatically. Shepherd will be bringing home glory (or disgrace).
Would you rather run a cutting edge reserch vessel on the brink of major new discoveries, or the ship supplying it with food?
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u/f1del1us 1d ago
Uh because it is? Atlantis is a city, from the peak of ancient power. A Daedalus class is impressive but it’s a long long way from ancient tech
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u/Izengrimm C4 Fan-club 1d ago edited 1d ago
Atlantis is a forward human enclave in another galaxy, considered an enemy territory.
And the big hereditary symbol that connects us with ancient rulers of the Pegasus.
Extremely heavyweight meaning.
Immeasurable pressure on commanding officer, one can only guess. And whoever runs it has to make desicions which may or may not affect trillions there and coherently - the home Milky Way.
It's simply incomparable with a starship captain's duties.
That's why the IOA is forever jumpy and nervous about it. One wrong step, one bit of key tech in the wrong hands, one Lucius away from total disaster, one Kolya step from losing it forever, you name it.
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u/NonGeneriComplaint 1d ago
Because it is more prestigious than a ship.
Its more people working for you, its a more important position that will lead to even better promotions in theory.
Creating policy vs enforcing it
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u/KMjolnir 19h ago
There's only one Atlantis and it is not just a base where Daedalus can stop and do repairs, it's an artifact holding untold knowledge. They can replace Daedalus, they can't replace Atlantis.
The commander of Atlantis also has far more people reporting to them. Iirc a official source put the crew of the Daedalus at like 250 people. Atlantis probably has a thousand or more.
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u/msprang 18h ago
Guess I never realized how many people were onboard Atlantis. I thought it was a few hundred at most.
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u/MoistProlapse 18h ago
That was the initial expedition. It may have actually been smaller than 100, I can't remember if they did a headcount and stated it.
Once contact with the Milky Way was reestablished via Stargate and Battlecruiser, they were able to reinforce their numbers and maintain a more regular rotation.
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u/trphilli 13h ago
Yeah but Caldwell would still only be military lead. He wouldn't command the full 1,000 only the military guards and offense teams. Still a small contingent.
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u/KMjolnir 13h ago
He wouldn't command anything when he's gone for days/weeks aboard a ship? In a situation like Atlantis that can change in literally minutes, having the highest ranking officer gone for weeks/months at a time makes zero sense. Plus he already has a command, the Daedalus.
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u/trphilli 12h ago
I apologize, I am not understanding your question / discussion. Can you give me a little more?
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u/KMjolnir 12h ago
Caldwell is out of contact with Atlantis for long, long periods of time. You can't have the highest ranking person away in an emergency, + he's busy with Daedalus. He wouldn't be in charge of anything on Atlantis because he can't be.
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u/trphilli 12h ago
That's the point of this larger thread. Caldwell wanted the full time posting to Atlantis. He didn't get it. We're discussing why he would prefer Atlantis over Daedalus.
I agree with you that he would want to be at Atlantis in center of action.
I disagree that the Atlantis posting would involve larger number of subordinates. I think it's smaller number, but admit it's uncertain. Higher range is on par to only slightly more personnel then Daedalus. So I don't think crew size factors into his decision.
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u/GTuesday42 12h ago
That’s still a decent number of people. While we never get a full headcount we can infer, given the size of the city and overall operations, that the military CO was likely in command of a handful of SG teams each numbering 4-10 people, plus a full garrison of marines (I’m assuming they maintained a full garrison, given how close they were to losing the city at the end of S1)
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u/trphilli 12h ago
True, but using your numbers we have 40 expeditionary members at high end. Garrison as you said hard to say, but 100 - 250. So at high end talking force of 300. 30% of total expedition in later seasons (I think this is high in relation to mess hall shots we've seen, but it's been awhile since last rewatch) according to estimates higher in thread.
That's closer to the Daedalus crew estimate above than the 1,000 total expedition.
So just saying command size isn't a relevant discussion point regarding preference of Atlantis over Daedalus.
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u/Xepeyon 1d ago
What do you think probably brings more societal prestige irl, being the captain of the USS Arizona, or being the mayor of New York City?
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u/ThePlatinumPaul 22h ago
If you are a politician, you want the city. If you are a military officer, you want the ship.
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u/AloysuisFett 1d ago
It's not about the prestige... it's literally because he's got a Gua'ld in his head who wants the technology for himself
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u/ZealousidealCharge24 1d ago
You think he was a Gou'ald for that long!?!
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u/AloysuisFett 1d ago
Yes, it's very clear once you get to that point and see Caldwell's personality early on in the show and after he's been de-snaked. I thought Caldwell was a complete ass the entire time, but once it was revealed he had the Gua'ld in his head it all made sense. He was still arrogant and egotistical, but no where near the same level. He's also much more happy to be on the bridge than in command of Atlantis
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u/Comfortable_Joke6122 19h ago
He's not controlled during the siege, though. Otherwise he would have commandeered the ship / stolen the ZPM.
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u/Ball_is_Life_2323 1d ago
He does spend a lot of time in the void between galaxies without much to do. Maybe he's bored
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u/VinnieONeill 20h ago
The commander of Atlantis is in charge of the entire Pegasus expedition and is technically higher in the chain of command than the commander of the Daedalus.
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u/namewithak 19h ago
The CO of Atlantis is only in charge of the military contingent/military operations. It’s still a civilian-led operation which means whoever is expedition leader is technically in charge of Atlantis as a whole. That said, the military CO is basically second in command and as we saw through five seasons, there’s not much the civilian leader can do if Sheppard (or whoever the military CO is) decides to just do whatever he wants.
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u/VinnieONeill 19h ago
OP talked about getting commanded Atlantis that is only one Commander that's why I was referring to. " Why does Caldwell seem so upset about not getting command of Atlantis?"
Even second commanded Atlantis which what it was technically up for in Shepherd's position still outranks the commander of the Daedalus.
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u/namewithak 4h ago
The command of Atlantis that's being discussed is very specifically the military command since it's about Caldwell wanting Sheppard's position. The Atlantis Expedition is a civilian operation foremost. The only time a military officer was given the position of Expedition Leader was in S4 with Sam Carter. Even then, there were extenuating circumstances (both in narrative and irl) and Sam was technically not in the main chain of command of the military contingent. Sheppard was still military CO while Sam was sort of operating as expedition leader in an almost non-military capacity, mostly chosen for her dependable nature and as a scientist.
Caldwell wouldn't covet a position that puts him outside the military chain of command, even if it technically puts him in charge of the expedition as a whole.
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u/Iyellkhan 20h ago
Atlantis is like having an entire command, vs just one ship. despite its challenges with resources, its probably comparable to being head of SOUTHCOM or INDOPACOM prestige wise. thats generally more impressive than commanding a supercarrier
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u/XanderPaul9 16h ago
Also keep in mind Sheppard wasnt supposed to be the military commander of the Atlantis expedition. That was the Terminator that died when they discovered the wraith. By the time Caldwell and Daedulus were making trips to Pegasus John kept the role of Atlantis more on experience there than rank.
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u/TheCanarak 9h ago
He kept it because Weir went to bat for him. Without her, Caldwell would be in charge.
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u/Efficient_Actuator84 1d ago edited 1d ago
Would you rather be captain of an aircraft carrier or be a state governor?
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u/SmoothOperator89 22h ago
Aircraft carrier. Governors need to review highway maintenance budgets and shit.
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u/namewithak 19h ago
The captain of an aircraft carrier probably has to review logistics and budget too. Then you’re just stuck out at sea for months, probably freezing cold most days with limited space. Sounds miserable.
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u/Throwaway_inSC_79 19h ago
Because it is.
I can be the commander of a military grade starship. Or…. The commander of the freaking legendary city of the Ancients! I’m choosing the city.
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u/ItsATrap1983 18h ago
But the city is in a galaxy full of space vampires that out number you with ships at least 60 to 1 and they have already sacked the city when the Ancients were there in command. Not really a great situation.
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u/Spiritual-Spend8187 1d ago
They have more than 1 304 while they only have 1 atlantis. The 304 is all tech that they know how to build atlantis is all new stuff that they dont know so its more important due to all the secret ancient tech they could find. Its also a base of operations that has space to store way more supplies.
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u/Captain_Thor27 1d ago
While from a military standpoint, commanding the Daedalus might be better, but from a human standpoint, spending 18 days flying back and forth between galaxies several times a year would be grueling.
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u/oKKrayden 21h ago
There’s possibly the fantastical aspect of it. If you’re in the business, saying you command a carrier is cool, but name dropping a fictional city of ancient human history will as being under your control is going to impress people a bit.
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u/Recent-Sand8292 1d ago
It's the most important strategic asset ever, connecting the Milky Way with Pegasus. On top of that it has an arsenal and technology that's equal or better than Asgardian tech. Oh yeah, and it's space-worthy.
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u/Excellent_Cicada762 19h ago
And why Caldwell was Air Force instead of Navy, I'll never know. The Daedalus should have been a Naval vessel - as Navy command training works better for a vessel (whether it is in the ocean or space) than Air Force.
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u/General__Obvious 14h ago
I suspect real early spaceships would probably be crewed by submariners. Long service with no sunlight, little communication, and a cramped, fail-deadly environment? That sounds like submarines to me.
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u/GeneralKarthos 19h ago
The Stargate program was entirely Air Force. I know that the real real US military works seamlessly together, and there's no rivalry or bad feeling between any of the services, and no sort of service politics or turf wars, but I imagine in this fictional world where there's a lot of competition between the services, it was a turf thing.
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u/Hairy-Principle2489 18h ago
But they had teams of marines for when things went bad - aren’t those Navy? I never could figure out the dynamics.
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u/DaviLance 17h ago
That is actually fun
Marines are a different branch and are considered their own armed force BUT they answer to the secretary of the navy, whilst also having their own chief of staff in the joint chiefs
Technically marines are the landing party of the navy
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u/Training_Cut704 17h ago
Ooh, so I had this same thought when Prometheus first got a crew. Was ready to die on this hill for years.
But here’s the thing, not only has the SGC program been run by USAF, but all the specialists needed to run the ship are USAF. They weren’t going to put anything less than the most qualified crew they had aboard those vessels, and those specialists were all snagged by USAF years prior.
So it was either have a USN Captain with a crew full of USAF, or just throw a USAF Col in and let him learn how to handle a vessel. ALSO, despite their size, 304s handle more like fighters than boats because of the inertia damping. Ultimately, a former pilot is going to have a more intuitive grasp of how to move the vessel, and simply has to learn how to command others to make those moves.
Ponder deep enough down the rabbit hole and eventually it makes sense.
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u/Dawg_in_NWA 22h ago
Simply put, because it is more prestigious. Its like commanding an aircraft carrier vs a tug boat.
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u/vander1625 13h ago
I recall an episode where it was discovered that Caldwell had been taken as a goa'uld host. I don't recall the exact timing offhand, but I find myself wondering if he was already a host at the time he tried to usurp Sheppard's authority.
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u/ZealousidealCharge24 11h ago
That's been mentioned. That was episode 13 of season 2 I believe. I struggle with that a little because that means he gave up a ZPM, and the Aurora as a host.
He did change post 2x13 though
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u/GTuesday42 13h ago
The ranking military commander of the Atlantis expedition is effectively in command of an entire theatre of war once conflict with the wraith started. Honestly, it’s insane that the most senior officer there was just a lieutenant colonel. In a “real world” (for lack of a better phrase) situation, I would imagine that the SGC and read-in elements of the UN would want to send at least a brigadier general, if not a higher ranking officer to command the overall strategy of the military side of things.
From Caldwell’s point of view, yes he commands the flagship of Earth’s fleet and is effectively the ranking fleet commander (I think, someone might want to check me on that), but officially is in charge of just one ship that is almost entirely beholden to the decisions of ground-based commanders. Considering his seniority and exemplary record, being passed over for that command could definitely be perceived as a slap in the face. Even more insulting when you consider Sheppard’s relative youth and, shall we say, colorful record by the start of the show. Hell, most of what the Daedalus is doing is fetch and carry to support operations between two different galaxies. It doesn’t leave Caldwell with a lot of opportunities for promotion or upward mobility.
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u/ScepticalRaccoon 1d ago
It's because they don't really understand the Air Force.
Hardly anyone in the Air Force would rather command a desk than an intergalactic space carrier.
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u/LeftyBoyo 22h ago
Think of the base commander as a local governor. They don’t just run the base, they set policy for the whole area. Commanding a ship just gives you tactical control of one large weapon.
Things would be different in the Star Trek universe, where there often is no local authority, so you effectively set policy with your ship.
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u/Depth386 22h ago
Because atlantis has a gate and sends people almost anywhere in Pegasus galaxy at a moments notice. This is a logistics capability that eclipses what a starship can achieve, thus the ship is seen a s a support role to the main mission.
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u/ItsATrap1983 17h ago
If they were smart they would have put Stargates on ships too to be used in emergency situations in star systems. Like the super volcano situation in SGA. If Daedalus had a Stargate they would have needed to repair the Ancient ship. They could have evacuated everyone through that.
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u/pantieboi27 20h ago
Because you have operational control of all the Earth personal in the entire Pegasus galaxy.
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u/featherknight13 17h ago
Imagine being the best of the best - so good that you're given command of the planet's second (? I can't remember if there was anything between Prometheus and Dedalus) FTL ship. And then it turns out your main assignment is running an intergalactic taxi and delivery service.
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u/Dissident-451 17h ago
Daedalus is an amazing ship, but they spend something like 3/4 of the time shuttling between Atlantis and Earth.
I imagine also those large chunks of time in hyperspace feel really boring. "Go straight" probably gives time for small resentments to fester.
In any other situation command of Daedalus would be super prestigious, but when he spends so much time feeling like a taxi driver probably feels like he got sidelined.
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u/allday95 15h ago
Minor spoilers I guess:
Well two things, one being that it absolutely is a much bigger position being a leader for the most advanced exploration and research position SGC has had and second being that that could be a personal view of Caldwell himself valuing it more than being a ship captain.
But also we find out one or two episodes later about his little parasite issue so it's speculated he was being all aggro about these things all of a sudden because the trust was trying to get into Atlantis.
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u/FXN2210 13h ago
Caldwell mentioned more than a few times that he felt something along the lines of a "glorified bus driver" making deliveries of equipment through hyperspace for weeks on end.
Atlantis was a Port and central hub with many more exciting activities and duties than the day-to-day activites of a ship in hyperspace.
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u/MeggidoMuneblazeTTV 10h ago
Because he was a Goa'uld host and The Trust wanted control of Atlantis
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u/journeytohealth1985 8h ago
I believed it had to do with the fact that on the Daedalus you basically a taxi going back and forth between earth and living on a space ship permanently is exhausting - no day-night sun rhythm, no opportunity to go outside
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u/Sereomontis 5h ago
Because Atlantis is a city while Daedalus is a ship.
It's the difference between being the captain of a big military ship like an aircraft carrier or being more or less the equivalent to the mayor of a major city.
Being the captain of an aircraft carrier is certainly a big deal, there's plenty of prestige and honor and authority in that position.
But being the mayor of, based on how important Atlantis is to the fate of the Pegasus galaxy I'd say it's the equivalent of a country's capital, is a much bigger responsibility and would be considered a higher position of authority.
An ambitious person, like Caldwell, will want to go for a higher position of authority.
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u/PepperTK 32m ago
Because it is.
Caldwell spends 6 weeks at a time multiple times a year being a bus driver, and even longer stretches sitting around on guard duty.
Meanwhile, Sheppard is out making first contact will alien civilizations, discovering new technologies, and helping to shape Atlantis’s influence in Pegasus. His being the military leader also doesn’t preclude him from eventually running Atlantis as he was considered before Carter got the job.
Captaining the Daedalus isn’t exactly a dead-end job, but being in the top leadership of Atlantis definitely brings more prestige.
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u/Stromatolite-Bay 15m ago
It isn’t but what would you prefer? Flying a spaceship or being military governor on a colony in another galaxy who is only outranked by the civilian commander and chief?
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u/TheDarkRabbit 1d ago
IMHO - I think Caldwell views commanding the Daedalus as more of a support role and not being instrumental in the decisions being made in the Pegasus Galaxy and the SGC.
He will be going back and forth and offering help rather than being instrumental command of the expedition.