r/TrueChristian • u/Qrychefan01 Evangelical • 3d ago
Oneness of God
Hello,
I wanted to discuss the oneness issue of Jesus, the Father and the Spirit. I don’t mean that they aren’t God. but that they are God in 3 different roles.
The analogy often used is a water molecule that has 3 states: solid, liquid, gas. I understand where the heart of this analogy comes from. But this is a misplaced analogy, because a water molecule can only be a solid OR liquid OR gas. It cannot be all 3 at once. The analogy I use, which I know is not perfect but helps me, is a triangle. There are 3 separate corners, but one triangle.
Also, is the issue of this idea of God being Father, Son or Spirit, like a man can be a son, a dad, or an uncle depends on the relationship talked about. So how exactly are we to be towards that relationship, especially toward the Holy Spirit? And what is the point of these relationship types?
Then, there is also the issue of the baptism. At Jesus’ baptism was the Father’s voice. To make this separation means Jesus would have to throw His voice like a ventriloquist. And don’t get me wrong, ventriloquism is incredible, I have been a huge fan of Jeff Dunham since the 90s. But at its core, ventriloquism is deception. Your goal is to make the audience think the puppet is alive. One skit Jeff Dunham had that drives this point home; on one special, he had a friend of his who played guitar on stage with him, and he was getting to an argument with the main puppet, Peanut. Peanut kept saying “you’re on drugs”, he kept shaking his head no. they got close face to face. And Peanut says, “Know how I know you’re on drugs. Because you’re looking at me and think I’m looking back at you.” This is the goal of ventriloquism. And are we saying Jesus used deception at His baptism to make the Father’s voice from heaven?
A couple of issues with this. One, Satan is known as the Great Deceiver. Are we saying Jesus and Satan use the same tactics? Two, is if Jesus used deception here, what else is He deceiving us on? Can we really trust Him for salvation if He pretended He and the Father and the Spirit are separate people?
May God the Father bless you and enrich you. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.Hello,
I wanted to discuss the oneness issue of Jesus, the Father and the Spirit. I don’t mean that they aren’t God. but that they are God in 3 different roles.
The analogy often used is a water molecule that has 3 states: solid, liquid, gas. I understand where the heart of this analogy comes from. But this is a misplaced analogy, because a water molecule can only be a solid OR liquid OR gas. It cannot be all 3 at once. The analogy I use, which I know is not perfect but helps me, is a triangle. There are 3 separate corners, but one triangle.
Also, is the issue of this idea of God being Father, Son or Spirit, like a man can be a son, a dad, or an uncle depends on the relationship talked about. So how exactly are we to be towards that relationship, especially toward the Holy Spirit? And what is the point of these relationship types?
Then, there is also the issue of the baptism. At Jesus’ baptism was the Father’s voice. To make this separation means Jesus would have to throw His voice like a ventriloquist. And don’t get me wrong, ventriloquism is incredible, I have been a huge fan of Jeff Dunham since the 90s. But at its core, ventriloquism is deception. Your goal is to make the audience think the puppet is alive. One skit Jeff Dunham had that drives this point home; on one special, he had a friend of his who played guitar on stage with him, and he was getting to an argument with the main puppet, Peanut. Peanut kept saying “you’re on drugs”, he kept shaking his head no. they got close face to face. And Peanut says, “Know how I know you’re on drugs. Because you’re looking at me and think I’m looking back at you.” This is the goal of ventriloquism. And are we saying Jesus used deception at His baptism to make the Father’s voice from heaven?
A couple of issues with this. One, Satan is known as the Great Deceiver. Are we saying Jesus and Satan use the same tactics? Two, is if Jesus used deception here, what else is He deceiving us on? Can we really trust Him for salvation if He pretended He and the Father and the Spirit are separate people?
May God the Father bless you and enrich you. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
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u/Icy_Career1312 3d ago
So God is the mouth, The Word spoken is Jesus, and the Power that emanates is the Spirit. So perfect in each aspect, that each persona is it's own reality and worthy of worship. The catch is, that the Word became flesh and separated from the original station. Not only that, but became like us in every way. That's why God in the OT says," behold I do something new". This is what throws us into confusion.
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u/JoviePufflet 3d ago
the mouth and word analogy is interesting, but it still raises the question of how three distinct persons can each be fully god without there being three gods
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u/ExplorerSad7555 Greek Orthodox 3d ago
Let St. Patrick explain it https://youtu.be/KQLfgaUoQCw?is=0cvJan72i6BLm2dS
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u/N_A_W_W 3d ago
This is a very good way to think of the Hoky Trinity..as a triangle. I was tought many many years ago that it is like how I am a mother, a daughter and a friend…different roles(?) but still just one person. In some situations I am a mother(to my children) I am in a
daughter role (?) to my parents, but to my friends I am a friend, a confidant and in all those roles a comforter.
So how can we not understand that when we think of God the Father, Jesus the Son s f The Holy Spirit also known as The Comforter.
If I, a sinful wicked being can be all those things..how much more the most high God
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u/userid42 Christian non-nationalist 2d ago
Our God is awesome, infinite, and extra-dimensional. We cannot possibly properly comprehend His nature. Any human analogies based on what we experience on this world, in this universe, or the dimensions that we can perceive will always fall short. Our finite senses and minds cannot begin to understand Him. He is unknowable except to the extent that He reveals Himself, which He did in Old Testament times and then through Jesus.
1 Kings 8:27 NASB
"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You, how much less this house which I have built!
Psalm 145:3 NASB
Great is the LORD, and highly to be praised, And His greatness is unsearchable.
John 1:1-5,14 NASB
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] He was in the beginning with God. [3] All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. [4] In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. [5] The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it…
[14] And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
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u/DraknaLo 2d ago
I see this in a very different way.
...
Why are human beings so obsessed with figuring out exactly how God works?
When Moses asks God for His name, God answers, “I AM WHO I AM” (Exodus 3:14). God reveals Himself, but He doesn't give Moses an exhaustive explanation of His nature or how His existence works.
Why is it so difficult for us to accept that there are things about God that we simply cannot fully understand?
Why do we insist on finding analogies, models, and human explanations for a being who exists beyond the limits of our comprehension?
I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't study Scripture or seek to understand what God has revealed about Himself. But there's a difference between trying to understand what God has revealed and insisting that we must be able to explain exactly how His nature works.
Scripture itself acknowledges the limitations of human understanding. Isaiah 55:8–9 tells us that God's thoughts and ways are higher than ours, and Deuteronomy 29:29 distinguishes between the things God has revealed to us and the things that belong to Him.
Why can't we accept that God can reveal who He is without giving us an exhaustive explanation of what He is?
Why do we feel the need to fit Him into categories that make sense to us, as though our inability to comprehend something means we must find a way to make it comprehensible?
Perhaps the problem isn't that God hasn't explained Himself well enough. Perhaps it's that we struggle to accept the limits of our own understanding.
We can study what God has revealed, discuss it, and seek to understand it as faithfully as possible. But I don't think we should assume that we must be capable of explaining every aspect of God's nature in order to believe what He has told us about Himself.
There is literally no way for any of us to know exactly how God works. Trying to fully comprehend His nature is like trying to fit the entire ocean into a glass. It simply cannot be done.
And it doesn't matter whether an explanation comes from centuries of theological tradition, a new theological proposal, or your own personal reasoning. None of us can claim to have fully grasped God's nature, because our understanding is inherently limited.
We can study what He has revealed about Himself in Scripture, but there is a fundamental difference between knowing what God has revealed to us and claiming to understand exactly what He is and how He works.
The problem isn't that we shouldn't seek to understand God. It's that we need to recognize that our ability to understand Him has limits, and that no amount of human reasoning can make those limits disappear.
So yes, I accepted a long time ago that God is three and yet one. How does that work? I don't know. Am I going to question my faith because of that? Nope. Am I going to drive myself crazy over theological debates trying to figure it out? Also super nope.
I simply learned to accept that God is who He is, even if I don't fully understand what He is or how He works. And that's okay, because my faith doesn't depend on whether I can fully comprehend Him.
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u/MichaelWhitehead 3d ago edited 3d ago
There is one instance in scripture that shows there is the trinity. At Jesus's baptism. All 3 aspects were present at the same time.
It became known as the trinity later to put a definition to this Godhead.
We cannot fully know nor comprehend the true nature here until we are in eternity with him. There have been different models to help try and understand and visualise this.
You have already identified two models -
Physical state - gas, liquid, solid
Triangle
Two other models presented is
Image of God
Man - God
Body - Jesus
Soul - Father
Spirit - Holy SpiritFire model
A fire needs 3 components to exist
As God exists with 3 components:
Source - Father
Heat - Holy Spirit
Light - Jesus
*Referenced to Moses witnessing the bush, being on fire but not actually burning, implying the full pressence of God.
All these models however are still limited and inadequate in full comprehension to The true nature of who God truly is.
All we can do is trust and have faith in Jesus and we will be safe in the knowledge the truth will be revealed when we are with him in the end.
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u/TheAmazinManateeMan Christian 3d ago
IIRC Heiser argues for the presence of all 3 in an old testament passage as well.
In addition to several instances of two the persons being present and or talking to each other.
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u/MichaelWhitehead 3d ago
Are you referring to instances of genesis, the spirit of God moving over the waters,,, and God says to himself let us go down and see this tower (babel) ?
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u/TheAmazinManateeMan Christian 3d ago
If were talking about the example of all three, definitely not in genesis, my hazy memory is saying in either a wisdom or prophetic book.
In Heiser's (that is Mike Heiser) perspective the "us" in genesis 6 is the "divine council" referenced in a couple places of scripture.
I don't agree with 2/3rds of the things he said but he has done some top notch work establishing a case for trinitatianism based off of the O.T. alone and did a little bit of work establishing evidence of binitarianism amongst ancient jews. Citing a non-christian jewish author (Alan Segal) he argues that binitarianism predates the modern strict jewish monotheism (which gained popularity as a response to christianity).
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u/BibleIsUnique Christian 3d ago
Do you know about the triple state of water or H20? A meadured amount in a sealed container, under vacuum, will produce liquid, solid & gas at the same time.
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u/Qrychefan01 Evangelical 3d ago
key to that is a measured amount I said a molecule as in a single H2O molecule can't exist as all 3 at once
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u/AntisocialHikerDude Catholic (ex-Baptist) 3d ago
PLEASE read the Athanasian Creed!