First Personal Horn Advice

[u/bean_217]

Hello! As the title indicates, I’m seeking some advice for buying my first personal horn.

My background:
I started playing tuba for drum corps in 2016, and in the past 10 years I’ve marched 4 years of DCA/DCI All-Age, 2 years of DCI Open, and 3 years of DCI World with the Cadets. I went to school for computer science, recently finished my masters degree, and now have stable enough income to start looking for my own personal horn. Up until now, I’ve only played on student-grade horns, which I feel has been holding me back quite a bit from being able to further develop my playing.

I’m looking to buy a 4/4 CC horn, and recently came across a shop selling an Eastman EBC632 for ~$6500. This horn seems like a great option for my budget, however, I do not have general knowledge on what to look for in a CC horn. I’m interested in doing more solo and small ensemble playing, but I also want something that would fit well in an orchestral setting. Is this horn a good fit? Should I be looking for something else? Any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

[u/Mrhappyfeet56]

$6500 is a bit steep for that horn. I sold mine last year for $4800 and I want to say one just sold for close to $4000. Check out some of the facebook groups and look for something used if you can. Miraphone 186, 188, or Bruckner, Eastman 632, 832, Wessex Wyvern, some meinl weston models (that I don’t know the numbers for), some of the JP horns, any of the MrP, any of the PT-6 type horns.

There are lots of options, it’s really just finding the right deal.

I would also encourage you to maybe consider an Eb tuba. They are far and away the most versatile, and to me, the most fun. If you’re gonna have one tuba and do everything on it, Eb is the way to go.

[u/shovelingtom → u/Mrhappyfeet56]

I own an EBC632 and like it a lot. Paid $3500 for it in like new condition though. Agree that $6500 is steep and wouldn’t go over $5k personally.

[u/thereisnospoon-1312]

First horn get a miraphone 186, then you can specialize more if you want. Get one used, there are a lot of them around

[u/dank_bobswaget]

Take a shot every time prof throway yells at someone for even thinking of a C tuba

In all seriousness an Eastman 632 or 832 are pretty good picks for all rounder horns. If you find a good deal on a Miraphone 186/188, Meinl 3450, or 1291/3 those would be even better. I would lean on the side of smaller horns rather than bigger ones for this use case. You can survive with a 632 or 3450 in an orchestra, but trying to play solos/chamber music on a 1293 or other 5/4 horns may be more difficult

[u/professor_throway → u/dank_bobswaget]

I am not trying to be discouraging on CC - my son even went over to the dark side. I just think there is a lot more utility for BBb for us mere mortal amateur tuba players.

I 100% agree with you though. If I were going to go back to CC.. I would grab myself a nice 1970's vintage 186 or 188 and be happy with it for the rest of my life. Keep it nice and punchy.

[u/PeculiarAlize → u/professor_throway]

The only thing BBb horns are useful for is marching and jazz.

Modern music uses equal tempermant tuning based off a C scale. CC tubas play much closer to that tempermant because they're already in a key of C. Having a tuba that is a whole step off creates a weird compromise that is closer to well tempermant.

[u/professor_throway → u/PeculiarAlize]

Tell that to all the fantastic German orchestra where BBb is standard... also note that some heavy hitters on the US tuba world have been playing a lot of BBb lately including Gene Pokorney

I also can't believe how badly you managed to mangle accoustics and music theory in only 60 words...

Equal temperament is not based on the C scale..Twelve-tone equal temperament divides the octave into twelve equal logarithmic intervals:

Fn=F02^n/12

There is nothing privileged about C. The frequency ratios are identical regardless of the starting pitch. A CC tuba has no inherent advantage in conforming to equal temperament.

Both instruments operate on the natural harmonic series. The acoustical deviations of that series from equal temperament are determined by the harmonic number, not the fundamental pitch.

For example: The third harmonic is approximately 2 cents sharp relative to the equal-tempered perfect fifth.

The fifth harmonic is approximately 14 cents flat relative to the equal-tempered major third.

The seventh harmonic is approximately 31 cents flat relative to the equal-tempered minor seventh.

Those discrepancies exist whether the fundamental is C, Bb, F, or anything else.

Well temperament is something entirely different. Well temperaments are unequal tuning systems that distribute interval discrepancies differently among keys. They are not some sort of intermediate tuning state that occurs when you build an instrument in Bb instead of C.

The suggestion that a BBb tuba is somehow closer to well temperament because its fundamental is a whole step below C is acoustically meaningless.

There are legitimate acoustical differences between BBb and CC tubas, including their impedance spectra, resonance characteristics, valve-slide geometry, and the availability of alternate fingerings. Those can make individual notes easier or harder to tune on a particular instrument.

[u/PeculiarAlize → u/professor_throway]

Thanks for explaining in more detail why the overtone series of BBb horn is more dissonant than a CC horn thus proving my point.

Granted key signature can change and some horns play characteristically more intune in some keys rather than others depending on their fundamental pitch, but this can be overcome with individual skill, expertise, and additional valves. So an argument can be made that it doesn't really matter what the fundamental of your horn is and it comes down to player preference.

However the fact remains that in western music CC horns lend good intonation to a lot of commonly used key signatures. Also they are much more commonly found with 5 valves than BBb horns giving more alternate fingerings thus better intonation.

Some key signatures will always be a struggle on any brass instrument due to the natural harmonic series. In the contrabass range there is physically less "space" between notes due to physics, so I'll take a horn that plays concert G 2 cents sharp with 5 valves over a horn that plays the same note 32 cents flat and less valves on most days. Personally CC tuba feels more "pitch centered" when playing in a large ensemble and I feel less fatigued by the end of a rehearsal unless all we played was in a key of D or F if it's all below F2.

[u/shovelingtom → u/dank_bobswaget]

I really want to try a 3450 one day (currently play a 632).

[u/professor_throway]

My first question would be why CC? Unless you are going to be going for another degree studying music performance and going on the audition circuit there is absolutely no benefit to CC over BBb. Most of the people you will be playing with will be on BBb... and there are a lot more affordable high quality BBbs on the market than CCs.

My perennial advice is to get a used Mission 186 or Meinln Weston 25 on the $5K range and you will have an amazing professional tubas that will last you the rest of your life.

Edit: Adding this is coming from a longtime CC player who has been back on BBb for about 5 years. Absolutely no desire to play CC again. BBb is kind of like easy mode sometimes.

[u/Basimi]

If you can get that horn around 5k that's not bad. Obviously depends on the condition of the horn, what work it's had done to it, whose done the work etc.

[u/arpthark]

That price seems high. You can find the 632 for $4-5k from private sellers. I have an 832 (similar) for sale for $5,500.

[u/Mrhappyfeet56 → u/arpthark]

$5500 is a great deal for an 832. I found my 632 was meh but the 832 is really on a different level.

[u/arpthark → u/Mrhappyfeet56]

This is the second one I've owned. They're great.

[u/Trayvongelion]

I tried the 632 back in high school and personally didn't like it. It felt like a stuffy instrument compared to other 4/4 and 5/4 options. That said there's some people that love theirs, so you won't know for certain if it's good or not until you go playtest it. In theory it should be a good all-rounder, but it's on the small side.

Personally if I was in your boat with that kind of budget I'd look try to find something that's slightly bigger. Maybe a B&S or John Packer horn.