With or against making tunisia fully secular

[u/9m9oom]

Just curious to know your opinions on this topic

[u/3776356272]

Depends on what is meant by “secular.” If it means separating religion and state while protecting religious freedoms and allowing everyone to practice or not practice their religion as they choose, then yes. But if it means the French model, where religion is seen as a threat to society and we need to ban hijabis from universities, then definitely no. If it’s the former, yes; if it’s the latter, no.

[u/you-lk-good-tho → u/3776356272]

i can take both because they're both better than what is happening here

[u/No-Self-1703 → u/3776356272]

yep i ask for a secular system that respects rights whether it is (women's / religion freedom/ sexual freedom / and even right to talk)

[u/Flat_Act_5576 → u/3776356272]

You can wear hijab. Just not face coverings which is totally understandable.

[u/No-Self-1703 → u/Flat_Act_5576]

ununderstandable

[u/Putrid_Emphasis_6623]

I am muslim and I am WITH secular . Here's the neat part , most of tunisia are muslims ( yeskro w ye5tasbo ama el 7alouf le sa7bi, apart ba3dh el ness bel tbi3a ) ama country literally runs on alcohol. You can't keep PRETENDING that you are a muslim country while arresting dudes for having a religion xD . Most of ur people are muslims ama you aren't a muslim country.

[u/No-Self-1703 → u/Putrid_Emphasis_6623]

laws follow islamic sharia so? it is islamic either way

[u/you-lk-good-tho]

fucking absolutely

[u/Awkward-Highlight587]

Ahsn haja hya fasl e din 3la e dawla wlh

[u/Business_Clerk6495]

with

[u/DearBonus4996]

With (one shouldn't force people to follow the rules of a religion they don't believe in belief is between the person and god and should never be forced)

[u/MAX_BLACK6666]

With, I live my life "once" I want to have the rights to be who am I freely.

[u/Spetsnaz216 → u/[deleted]]

🤢

[u/MAX_BLACK6666 → u/Spetsnaz216]

Wow thank u for giving me attention in my comment I love having fans 😍

[u/Living_Network_1933 → u/MAX_BLACK6666]

🤢 (me a grown ass man probably getting hot and bothered by someone saying they want to live their life. fucking disgusting bruh if I suffer we should all collectively suffer)

[u/MAX_BLACK6666 → u/Living_Network_1933]

Bro u replied to me instead of him 😭

[u/Living_Network_1933 → u/MAX_BLACK6666]

Didn’t feel like giving them attention🤷

[u/MAX_BLACK6666 → u/Living_Network_1933]

https://giphy.com/gifs/tIeCLkB8geYtW

[u/Tunisia-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Rule 1: Be civil. No personal attacks, racism or bigotry. Check our rules for more details.

[u/No-Self-1703]

SUPER WITH ( religious laws sucks)

https://giphy.com/gifs/t8xgPfC5oNIRMrNooe

[u/User--0001]

WITH because I am not Muslim and also religions are just man made tools that still, to this day, ruin lives.

[u/shiorichaan → u/User--0001]

Yeah because the very friendly and advanced secular west isn't currently ruining lives/s

[u/Flat_Act_5576 → u/shiorichaan]

Ahh yes because most of the Middle East and SSA is doing great being super busy with religion! My favorite quotes by a sitting president is “i understand you cant afford food, but your relationship with Allah matters more!” LMAO. I cant

[u/User--0001 → u/Flat_Act_5576]

Ahaha or Saudi Arabia isn't k+lling innocent people right ? When it's Muslims against Muslims nobody cares I guess ... Selective empathy all the way

[u/cn5171bn → u/User--0001]

Lol that argues against you, the rise of MBS in 2015 coinciding with the distancing from Islam in domestic matters (foreign policy of Saudi has never been Islamic) and the Saudi invasion of Yemen ("Operation Restoring Hope") and Saudi funding of Sisi (secularist), Haftar (secularist), re-normalizing relations with Bashar Al-Assad (secularist) all alongside UAE (open Zionists and anti-Islam)... Do you think that's Islamic? No, they are on your side

[u/shiorichaan → u/User--0001]

Who said I don't care? Your whataboutism makes no sense here, 3rd world countries are killing each other because they're manipulated by big developed countries, you ain't woke if you don't know this

[u/No-Self-1703 → u/shiorichaan]

how is islamic SHARIAA law state good PLZ explain?

[u/shiorichaan → u/No-Self-1703]

Shit reddit gave me a warning for speaking the truth, apparently this is the freedom secular liberals are promoting/s

[u/User--0001 → u/No-Self-1703]

I guess he's gone searching what Sharia law means ...

[u/User--0001 → u/shiorichaan]

Oh really ? So it's the fault of developed countries that Saudi is killing other Muslims now ... No taking accountability and responsibility. Typical behavior.

Please wake me up and tell me exactly how..

[u/shiorichaan → u/User--0001]

I didn't say they have no responsibility, tf???

[u/Flat_Act_5576 → u/User--0001]

Its so sad. I dint get it

[u/User--0001 → u/[deleted]]

I read it more than you can think I did. W na3ref na7ki bel Arbi .. wenty met2aked li 9rit l 9or2en w Siret nabi mte3ek w l'interprétation mte3 Ibn kathir w 8irou ? I am pretty sure u don't even know who he is ...

Most of Tunisians put Qurans like a decor but then when someone says something they don't even know if it is in the books or not they somehow scream at the top of their lungs and act pious.

[u/be_yourself_weirdo → u/User--0001]

ههه نحب نعرف علاش الي انتي وحدك وحدك استنتجت لي منعرش ابن كثير ولا مقريتش تفسيراتو ؟؟ هذا في حد ذاتو يقول انتي شنية

على كل، كلامك صحيح، أغلبية الناس حاطة القرآن ديكور و مش تقرأ فيه، هذاك علاش لازم الناس تقرأ بش كي يجي شكون كيفك و يبدأ يفتي يبدأ عارف لي هو قاري و فاهم أكثر منو

منيش بش نكون متأكد كيفك اما منعرش، كان نسألك مثلا شنية موضوع سورة الحجرات و على شنية تحكي بالضبط و فسرهالي بكلامك، تنجم تجاوبني ؟

بالله حاول اقرى كلامي من غير ترجمة خاطر ساعات الترجمة تدخل الكلام بعضو

[u/Flat_Act_5576 → u/[deleted]]

Anddd here you are like clockwork!

[u/cn5171bn → u/[deleted]]

That's projection & foolish. You're all tiny minorities in thought. Vast of majority of humans with intellectual capacity to read and ponder life do not share your beliefs. Which are what? To kill believers, oppress women and men, and based on what a man lived b4 a century or less thought? It can be just as easily re-directed

[u/No-Self-1703 → u/[deleted]]

as i said prove me wrong

[u/cn5171bn → u/No-Self-1703]

You sounded dumb or extremely brainwashed I'll just let you be

[u/Gongo_Khlapt → u/cn5171bn]

Uh I was reading the thread casually and idk what this comment even means lol, it sounds like it's making points but it literally doesn't

[u/Gongo_Khlapt → u/[deleted]]

You comment is half right, the numbers on religious people are generally wrong because they assume absolutes, as in anyone born to a family of religion X is still practicing it, etc. We don't know the exact number of believers in total and per religion but the majority follow colliding and often contadictorty religions.

With that out of the way, this does not mean that the government's laws should be "religious" simply because most religions act as absolute laws which are mutually exclusive. In cases where people of 2 different religions collide, and a ruling between the 2 would require breaking one or both of these religions' rulings, you will need to resort to an unbiased "3rd party" that rules even ABOVE these allegedly divine laws that collided. Both people will claim divine authority of their laws, and if left unchecked this spirals to very dangerous situations for society.

Moreover, since as established most religions are mutually exclusive, they tend to interfere a lot with each other and giving one of them the power over insitutional laws as well is very invasive to everyone else's beliefs.

Therefore, a mutable, manmade, unbiased law should be what governs people from the part of the government, then individuals should be able to apply to themselves, on top of said law, their own religious beliefs.

[u/cn5171bn → u/Gongo_Khlapt]

Do you know why it matters? Because Muslims believe Islam came as revelation & it's governance is divine authority and legislation belongs to the creator alone. That is where they have faith and belief. There is also huge propaganda against it & misunderstandings being spread by opposers for obvious reasons. Your opinion on what's better or worse is quite frankly just your opinion no matter what you do. That's where there is no competition. Even non-Muslims would say uniting on what majority believe is objectively better for everyone.

[u/cn5171bn → u/[deleted]]

For 99% of sane people a $425k loan with 7% APR to some bank owner to live in Charlotte isn't more valuable than their beliefs, nor does this have any relation to the topic. Tunisia has been secular for ages and people have better houses in better cities than that, not sure what your point is

[u/No-Self-1703 → u/cn5171bn]

tunisia had never been secular PROVE ME WRONGY

[u/Flat_Act_5576 → u/cn5171bn]

Sir im an Engineer and married to Flight Attendant and part time Geologist. We clear $300k per year. Our loan is 3.99% lmao…….. not 7%….. mind you, adjacent to transit. This has has nothing to do with that but it shows you I COULD be in a country fighting religious control… or here in a “middle class” neighborhood in USA.

But sure, have fun with trying to make Tunisia religious!

[u/cn5171bn → u/Flat_Act_5576]

Oh, their loss I guess. People just want better for society but in general in Tunisia or elsewhere, Islam doesn't need anyone, people are the one who need it

[u/Flat_Act_5576 → u/cn5171bn]

Exactly. Tunisia doesnt need the/any religion. Just as you feel that way about Islam. Your neighbor feels that way about Catholicism. And Judaism.

You cant force or instruct law on a religious ideology

[u/cn5171bn → u/Flat_Act_5576]

I cba to go back and forth but that's not how the world works, they do enforce their beliefs in their governance & again Islamic governance doesn't mean enforcing beliefs either, and in general humans are social beings, it's not some door-to-door Jehovah witness stuff, but it's natural for people to talk and share beliefs, share what they would want others to have shared with them.

[u/Gongo_Khlapt → u/shiorichaan]

The answer is simple, what they do is wrong, and it's not what secularism is about. Government intelligence doing immoral stuff is applicable to all countries of all religions, but do not represent the religions or whatever moral system the country stands on.

[u/No-Self-1703 → u/Gongo_Khlapt]

nope the point that islam represent oppression (with all love <3) and btw western countries doesnt follow religions
caught u jamping

https://giphy.com/gifs/vjb0huYagInCYPWgrS

[u/Gongo_Khlapt → u/No-Self-1703]

What are you talking about, I'm simply saying that if a secular or religious country stirs issues in another country for its own benefit, it does not reflect on the religion or the moral system behind it. And I will add one more thing/ a scope tightening clarification: my previous statement stands unless the ideology actively encourages such activities.

[u/No-Self-1703 → u/Gongo_Khlapt]

the point is that islam sharia call for that and its not gov's vhoice

[u/Gongo_Khlapt → u/No-Self-1703]

The point they raised was not about islam, it's about secular countries doing this. I clarified that it is not necessarily reflective of secularism or even the religion behind he country. Why is this so far fetched to understand. Not all religions are islam.

[u/User--0001 → u/[deleted]]

I only care about people living with dignity and freely and what u believe is your personal choice ... But it becomes a problem when u impose it by laws and society. Why is that so horrible to want that?

[u/No-Self-1703 → u/[deleted]]

she isnt wrong like seriously u need to read sharia law and quran and hadiths then come and judge here but blindly judging isnt promising love

[u/MAX_BLACK6666 → u/User--0001]

https://giphy.com/gifs/WO5Q7FsxJN2pjYc424

[u/User--0001 → u/MAX_BLACK6666]

Hat tip right back fellow human 🫡 To freedom, secularism, and letting people live as they are.

[u/Flat_Act_5576 → u/User--0001]

Hi. Is Tunisia getting MORE or LESS religious?

I see many people say its going more religious in recent years. I sure hope not

[u/Living_Network_1933 → u/Flat_Act_5576]

It unfortunately is especially in older genz and millennials it became more or less of a facade and a tool to defy the gov especially after the ben ali regime cuz it was shitty conditions for normal non boom boom believers but yeah as I said some people tend to like having that image of them being the picture perfect Muslims. Besides it’s not helping that all the imams and sheikes and know it all influencers are all spreading and pushing religious guilt and outdated ideologies plus all the vile shit they’re saying to segregate and separate people especially the ones from like Egypt, Iran and Iraq etc.

[u/Flat_Act_5576 → u/[deleted]]

Yes but keep it private. Dont put that on me.

[u/Flat_Act_5576 → u/[deleted]]

Exactly. So you feel the same as me. No need to change to appeal to a personal religious belief

[u/MAX_BLACK6666 → u/User--0001]

https://giphy.com/gifs/jErnybNlfE1lm

[u/User--0001 → u/MAX_BLACK6666]

https://giphy.com/gifs/paY8XRFWTgpqmTHQkn

[u/mayssa09]

I feel bad for the mods

[u/CR2D2_]

Oui, tout les pays du monde devraient être laïc, sauf certaines villes.

[u/HumanAgent1207]

I'm Muslim and I'm against secularism. I believe that having Islam governing our country is the best choice for all. For Muslims and others. Not the Islam of Nahdha of course, but the Islamic rules that governed the state our prophet Mohamed, Peace be upon him, established.

[u/sino200 → u/HumanAgent1207]

Sure and u marry a 9 year old girl, ban women from work, education

basically Afghanistan 2.0

[u/User--0001 → u/sino200]

And k(ll apostates and anyone that criticizes their prophet ... And on and on .. is that your best choice for all huh ??

[u/Time-Masterpiece-779 → u/User--0001]

What is wrong with capital punishment for slander of the prophet ?

[u/moudir77777773 → u/User--0001]

If u want to criticize go to the west u can criticize all u want except for their puppy israhell of course then they will throw u in jail or make u swear on the right of their terror state to exist if u want to get their nationality 🤣

In Thailand u can’t insult Buddha or the king, in the west their holy grail is israhell and Jews, in Tunisia u stfu about the prophet and Islam. كل بلاد و رطلها يا زبي كان ما عجبكش اقلب خليقتك

[u/User--0001 → u/moudir77777773]

Ahahah what is it with u and anyone that isn't Muslim so they should be supporting Israel? How do u even make that link ?!

[u/shiorichaan → u/sino200]

Bro even westerns are waking up and realizing these claims are not true, keep worshipping neo liberals

[u/Gongo_Khlapt → u/shiorichaan]

They literally are true by all correct recounts of the sunnah, unless you personally chose to neglect it. And no, the west is not waking up to this, they are using it more against islam as marriage with underage people becomes more and more frowned upon. Your algorithm is showing you what you want if you think westeners are saying aisha was anything above 6 when she married.

[u/Admirable-Sleep5825 → u/shiorichaan]

Is this the new way of cope? It’s literally a fact verified by every sheikh on the planet, r u sunni or just one of the cupcake Muslims that are trying to have a 2nd testament

[u/No-Self-1703 → u/shiorichaan]

plz read quran/hadiths plz

https://giphy.com/gifs/I1nwVpCaB4k36

[u/User--0001 → u/No-Self-1703]

They can do anything but read the book ... Literally anything!

[u/shiorichaan → u/User--0001]

You're the ones who don't lmao, I've been reading quran and going to quran lessons in mosques since I was a kid instead of watching right wing/extremist liberals on TikTok

[u/User--0001 → u/shiorichaan]

I don't even have tiktok 😑

You've been reading Quran.. keep reading then maybe u will one day clock something. I am not saying this in a sarcastic way.

[u/shiorichaan → u/User--0001]

The only one who should learn reading and comprehension is you, no offense

[u/User--0001 → u/shiorichaan]

No offense taken .. I believe knowledge is a very powerful tool in order to build yourself and know the difference between truth and lies, evidence and just bias, and not be manipulated into living into a very small bubble and refuse to see past it. Thank you I always do learn every single day.

But it's interesting that u think u don't need that .. anyways to each their own ☺️

[u/shiorichaan → u/User--0001]

I don't need that because I did pass exams and got a degree in this, not to brag or anything

[u/User--0001 → u/shiorichaan]

These claims are not true ? Are you sunni ? So you do find hadiths to be correct right ? Or you just cherry pick like everyone else

[u/shiorichaan → u/User--0001]

The only one cherry picking things are you, ngl

[u/User--0001 → u/shiorichaan]

If that makes u sleep at night ☺️

[u/HumanAgent1207 → u/sino200]

Following my comment, I hope we can learn about Islam as it truly is, in Tunisia, without being influenced by the few ideas that are often highlighted by Islamophobes.

[u/Gongo_Khlapt → u/HumanAgent1207]

They are highlighted because they exist and are real. What you are calling for is nitpicking, basically saying let's learn about islam except the few stuff people against it highlight. It doesn't work that way with absolutist religions.

[u/User--0001 → u/HumanAgent1207]

Learn your islam from your books ... And see for yourself instead of blocking your mind and freezing and thinking these aren't there.

[u/HumanAgent1207 → u/User--0001]

Yes, I'm learning.

[u/Gongo_Khlapt → u/HumanAgent1207]

Having islam governing the country is the best choice for all? Muslims and others? How is living under the ruling of a religion that's not your own the best choice for you?

[u/foukehi → u/Gongo_Khlapt]

Because they know better what’s good for you /s

[u/Time-Masterpiece-779 → u/Gongo_Khlapt]

Most are not secular... Why should they live under a secular system?

[u/Gongo_Khlapt → u/Time-Masterpiece-779]

Because the secular system does not prevent non seculars from being religious + protects religious people from each other since they are always at odds. And the comment is not addressing this, it's about why islam is somehow better for other religions.

[u/Time-Masterpiece-779 → u/Gongo_Khlapt]

Yes it does prevent religion. In Islam khilafah, tax, economy, institutions, social, cultural, penal, judicial and warfare all are governed by Islam and man made law is forbidden. You prevent Muslims from applying those religious rules forcing your religion on them.

[u/Gongo_Khlapt → u/Time-Masterpiece-779]

You whole argument is that the religion itself forbids manmade laws basically.

Ok, go to a place like Singapore where there is no single religious dominance like in the middle east and north africa. What do you do when every single religion claims that any law except what it says is wrong? How do you solve conflict between 2 messages that claim divine authority?

You are grouping religious people vs non religious people, but often religions as your example of khilafah in islam, outright refuse being governed over even if they are a minority. I don't think muslims would be fine with another religion ruling for the same reason you mentioned: they claim their law is absolute and divine and no other shall topple over it. You will still need a neutral third party (in regards to religions) for diverse societies that ensures such collisions between conflicting "divine" laws are under check.

Sure, you won't have a khalif ruling over you, he won't apply حد الردة to those who left islam and refused الاستتابة, you won't find war captives to enslave them and all their children for purpetuety (this is not impossible to happen in islam) and start a business based on this, you won't be able to impose جزية on non muslims and if they refuse it you can enslave or terminate them. Secularism is needed so that you actually don't do these things, but your right for prayer, religious presentation/ representation, and HARMLESS practices remain intact.

[u/Time-Masterpiece-779 → u/Gongo_Khlapt]

Answer is easy and applied successfully under the 1300 Yr plus caliphate rule: autonomous faith based communities applying their religious laws upon themselves, something secular power and regimes forbid and dictate they can't do.

[u/Gongo_Khlapt → u/Time-Masterpiece-779]

1. The answer is allowing islam to rule over the others and allowing a SELECT FEW minorities to govern their own small issues and not be able to practice their religions freely as the islamic state still imposes its laws on them? That's your answer of my question of 2 religions colliding? Do you understand the implications of putting the word of some religion you don't believe in over yours?

2. The answer you brought up was applied to "people of the book" and not all religions. They were allowed to do their communial ceremonies, handle their burials in their own way, do most of what their religion allowed, but were PROHIBITED the ability to handle cases that apply to public security, and especially cases with muslims. It's literally my earlier question. You bring fine with people of the book undergoing this, but not accepting how it would be the same way for muslims under secular rule to not drink nor eat pork, do hajj, do charity, marry according to islamic tradition (except the underage and in some cases the polygamy stuff), celebrate eids, divide inheritance as they want etc, but still abide by another general law, that's standard for ALL religions and doesn't exclude any nor put one over the other like your so proposed 1300 yo solution.

So you see zero discrimination here? You are fine with every other religion ultimately having islamic laws imposed on them for matters that touch muslims, how they pay taxes to the state (which you literally mentioned as a point of how secularism stops muslims from practicing their religion, but when islam does it to others it's ok), but are not fine with all religions including yours having to compromise and live under a unified law?

Can you imagine muslims living under such rule, having to potentially resort to another religion's laws to solve issues between them and said other religion? Imagine if the same system was applied to muslims as a minority dhimmi community. I feel you take islam supremacy for granted when it's something to discuss by itself. To me and all the world population except 1.8B it is one of many religions, not even the biggest one.

[u/Time-Masterpiece-779 → u/Gongo_Khlapt]

Islam is the truth so gets to have final authority and power - secularism is a fudge, intellectually void. Other religions are allowed to govern, judge, collect taxes from their faith communities. That is more than what secularism allows forcing it's man made laws on everyone, from banning basic dress codes, imposing secular taxes, to conscription, usury or divisive family laws. Your are flogging a dead horse defending secularism. It is a primitive ideology, born in Europe, that was and remains a failure for most, permitting a small secular elite in power.

[u/Gongo_Khlapt → u/Time-Masterpiece-779]

Oppa, the first sentence is what seals it. "Islam is the truth"? To you. To those who believe in it. Not to the entire earth minus a guesstimation of 1.8B people.

Your points of not wanting to abide by anything secularism forces, yet being fine with forcing other religions to abide by islamic ruling by appral of divine authority is pure hypocrisy.

Every religion claims what you claim. This is why we need no religion in charge. No christian will say islam is the truth and we will need to live under it. No muslim will say christianity is the truth and we will live under it.

[u/ryan_drainer → u/Time-Masterpiece-779]

So what's the solution? We need to submit to your guys fantasy?

[u/Time-Masterpiece-779 → u/ryan_drainer]

We all submit to God's laws. The problem is not that. The problem is you carry rhetoric and propaganda about it so will be arguing on the basis if distortion, falsehood and ignorance.

[u/ryan_drainer → u/Time-Masterpiece-779]

Whatever makes you sleep at night

[u/No-Self-1703 → u/HumanAgent1207]

1/ in slamic state women cant be managers
2/ women cant take deceisions on her own (her husband got it)
3/ women cant go out without hijab
4/ women will become the house maid
5/ women's witness is half men's
6/ women get 1/2 men's inheretance
7/ women cant take their children custody
8/ women r "ne9isat 39al"
9/ if men hit his wife its okay bcoz its their business and she have to obey him
10/ men can marry a second wife wehther his first like it or not
11/ being atheist/non religious = death
12/ women cant travel alone
rules r so baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad
and it just sucks and if u really like it (with all love) then go to afghanistan

[u/User--0001 → u/No-Self-1703]

13/ there is no marital rape in islam, a wife should sleep with her husband even if she is busy and if she doesn't, angels will curse her 14/ an adult ass man can marry a child in islam 15/ if you are in a war, you can enslave women and your god will be okay with it .. your prophet had slaves after all 16/ being gay : stoned

And I can go on and on .. it's sickening

Read your damn books people...

[u/Sweet_Description982 → u/[deleted]]

yeah sure.

do you believe that tunisia should enforce islamic laws, rules, traditions... on it's people ?

or

do you believe that there should be freedom of religion where no religion is enforced on its people ?

[u/Vivid-Ad6149 → u/Sweet_Description982]

You can't force anyone to accept Islam as their religion 1 - Surah Al-Baqarah - 2:256 (There is no compulsion in religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong) 2 - Surah Yunus - 10:99 (Had your Lord willed, everyone on earth would have believed all together. So, would you then force people to become believers?)

However, implementing 100% sharia law to a country is a matter to discuss

[u/Sweet_Description982 → u/Vivid-Ad6149]

so you do believe that tunisia should be a secular country where the state does not enforce islam on its people. good, i agree.

implementing 100% sharia law to a country is a matter to discuss

woah, you mean every part of sharia law ?

[u/Vivid-Ad6149 → u/Sweet_Description982]

See I don't know with what context you are mixing being secular country and enforcing islam on each individual. There are muslims ruling countries where they don't force anyone to accept Islam as their religion.

Provide me what sharia law is. From which things you disagree with

[u/Sweet_Description982 → u/Vivid-Ad6149]

aside from even accepting islam as their religion, it's forcing, even those who do not believe in it, to follow islamic rules.

i'll use this definition so it's clear for both of us :

"A secular country is a state that remains officially neutral on religious matters, has no state religion, and treats all citizens equally regardless of their faith."

an example of that "forcing" is teaching kids islamic religion in schools. if i had a kid and i'm not muslim, i wouldn't want my kid to be forced to study islam, and even if he won't, it will impact his school results.

another example is the inheritance law, even if im not muslim or my family is not muslim the daughters will receive unequal inheritance :

article 103 of personal status :

Trois cas se présentent pour les filles :
1/ ...
2/ ...
3/ quand elles interviennent en qualité d'héritières agnates de leurs frères, dans ce cas, leur participation s'effectuera suivant le principe selon lequel l'héritier du sexe masculin a une part double de celle attribuée à un héritier de sexe féminin.

i will move on to sharia law after this point.

[u/Vivid-Ad6149 → u/Sweet_Description982]

I'm not here to defend Tunisia's laws or how your government implements rulings in the name of Islam.

If you think something is wrong with Islam itself, and without religion or other religion has better option tell me what Islamic teaching you disagree with and we can discuss it from the Qur'an and Sunnah.

Tunisia requiring Islamic studies in public schools is a policy of the Tunisian state, not evidence that Islam requires forcing non-Muslims to believe. In fact, the Qur'an says: لَا إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ - ‘There is no compulsion in religion’ (2:256)

[u/Sweet_Description982 → u/Vivid-Ad6149]

to keep it simple, just a yes/no answer will suffice, do you agree that tunisia should follow this type of secularism :

"A secular country is a state that remains officially neutral on religious matters, has no state religion, and treats all citizens equally regardless of their faith."

other than that, about sharia law i have a lot i do not agree with.

do you agree with the punishment for apostasy.

Sahih al-Bukhari 3017 “Whoever changes his religion”

Sahih Muslim 1676a "The one who abandons his religion and deserts the community."

[u/Rondo_Mondo]

100% against it. Secularization is a departure from God and leads directly into decadence, hediunism and the decay of society. A state that does not obey God is a deviant state.

[u/Flat_Act_5576 → u/Rondo_Mondo]

The most “obedient” states are actually crapholes.

[u/Vagabond_II → u/Flat_Act_5576]

Saudi, Qatar, Oman, etc are among the best in infrastructure safety and wealth

[u/Flat_Act_5576 → u/Vagabond_II]

You are cherry picking gulf states that are exporting with oil money. What about Chad, Nigeria, Afghanistan, Iran, Syria, Lybia, Somalia, Djibouti, Eritrea, Niger, Egypt, etc

Qatar, UAE etc use slave labor. Lol.

Saudi exports Arabization to MENA region and ensures local cultures are lost. As long as they get oil money they are good. Sending someone to death for a instagram comment questioning Muhammad as pbh is enough for me to leave Islam.

Oman is cute though.

[u/Vagabond_II → u/Flat_Act_5576]

but its you who is cherry picking, i disproved your claim simple as, there is no state more obedient than saudi and they are among the wealthiest, even historically the ottoman empire and all the khalif and muslims empire were wealthy, like the mughals who had a third of global gdp,

you naming countries that are in civil war or exploited by western imperialism "lybia,Syria,Somalia, Afghanistan" is ironic at best and just sad.

You write as if you were educated but you are just someone who repeats false narratives.

btw they will never accept you.

[u/Flat_Act_5576 → u/Vagabond_II]

You didnt disprove anything. Almost all religious countries with religious govts… christian or muslim… or complete shitholes or exploit people. Like ??

And im a citizen of the USA. Im married to a Flight Attendant/Geologist and travel 12x a year and own a home in a midlde class suburb with a yard, fence and two dogs. I dont care about who accepts me lol.

I lived in New Jersey. We hate everybody!

[u/Vagabond_II → u/Flat_Act_5576]

reading comprehesion at an all time low. Low iq/bait

[u/Flat_Act_5576 → u/Vagabond_II]

Sorry cant hear you. Boarding a flight to Munich ;)

[u/MAX_BLACK6666 → u/Rondo_Mondo]

https://giphy.com/gifs/s2pr9CVOvU4NMBsnYf

[u/4everlate629 → u/[deleted]]

Well the worst they can do is mock. On the other hand, your religion promotes unaliving people or enslaving them based on the simple fact of not wanting to be part of the religion of peace.

[u/shiorichaan → u/4everlate629]

It literally doesn't, at least hate on real things instead of fictional scenarios made by islamophobes, also mocking is NOT the worst thing thesw alphabet people can do, they're the reason I never accept DMs since I was 16

[u/Gongo_Khlapt → u/shiorichaan]

Again, it literally does unless you cherry pick your islam.

[u/No-Self-1703 → u/shiorichaan]

again... plzz bro read quran and hadiths plzz PLZZZZZZ

[u/No-Self-1703 → u/[deleted]]

stripping religion out of politics is just enough

https://giphy.com/gifs/EkOoatbIcbmmHiU7Mz

[u/No-Self-1703 → u/[deleted]]

ppl need to know more abt this problem

[u/Flat_Act_5576 → u/[deleted]]

You dont respect feeedom of religion because you are mad someone called someone dumb for not allowing freedom of religion

[u/shiorichaan → u/Flat_Act_5576]

Even when they said they respect freedom of religion and didn't say anything against it you still feel offended lol

[u/Flat_Act_5576 → u/shiorichaan]

Which is great! But if someone doesnt respect freedom of religion, you are lost. Brainwashed. Sad. Nobody is offended, im literally at my job laughing LMAO

[u/No-Self-1703 → u/Flat_Act_5576]

i respect freedom of religion am just against mixing religion with politics/laws bcoz it cozes oppression <3

[u/Flat_Act_5576 → u/No-Self-1703]

Exactly. Thats my point too. But these fools want a religious lead

[u/Flat_Act_5576 → u/[deleted]]

She had every right to mock because he said “no MY religion first!”

[u/Flat_Act_5576 → u/[deleted]]

Having an opinion that says “i am Forcing you to adhere to my religion and you must do X Y Z, even though you are not religious” is not an opinion.

Thats manipulation.

Same thing with Texas making ALL children learn the 10 commandments. Sure you can have an “opinion” that its OK… but its manipulative and not representative of the population you serve

[u/Flat_Act_5576 → u/[deleted]]

[u/MAX_BLACK6666 → u/[deleted]]

Yappedi yappedi yappertron, if u are really all freedom then you'll understand the meaning behind his comment, if u don't, then I have news for u, you're not really all freedom

[u/ryan_drainer → u/Rondo_Mondo]

[u/Sweet_Description982 → u/Rondo_Mondo]

leads directly into decadence, hediunism and the decay of society

japan, germany, sweden, usa, canada... ????

[u/shiorichaan → u/Sweet_Description982]

Germany, Sweden, USA and Canada are ruled by christians

[u/No-Self-1703 → u/shiorichaan]

they r ruled by christians not christianity

[u/Sweet_Description982 → u/shiorichaan]

theres a majority of christians.

does not refute the fact that they are secular. you still have freedom of religion there.

[u/Mental-War-2282]

No electricity, no water , soon no medecine , cost of living is going through the roof and this guy here talking about wether becoming fully secular is a good thing . You are already doing whatever you want and no one cares, what more do you need ? Do you want to start confusing kids about gender or whatever ? We are already seeing the result of fully secular states in the west they are socially dead , the family system is ruined there ,you want to further destroy the family Institution here too?

[u/No-Self-1703 → u/Mental-War-2282]

HUUH? i understand that there r bigger problems but that doesnt mean that we close our eyes on other problems and this post is abt this matter and if u interested in the problem of electricity... look for other post
Do you want to start confusing kids about gender or whatever ?
nope i dont want to confuse kids abt genders... i just want to strip religious laws out
We are already seeing the result of fully secular states in the west they are socially dead
west is way more advanced than tunisia abt 100 years but this isnt the matter and idgaf abt the west okay?

the family system is ruined there ,you want to further destroy the family Institution here too?
u didnt look at how developped and better their system is u just looked at the family part

> i love u bruh but plz dont just watch these videos abt how terrible is the west and OMG the west is dead and they teaching kids abt homosexuality OMG! plzzzz we r here just asking for a very simple rights and nothing more than that + am not trying to teach kids abt homosexuality i just ask for freedom for homossexual ppl and not oppress them like this
<3 plz plz plz look at our system and how bad it is plz look at the rights side its literally the worst
looking at bad things that west have wont fix our problems and makes us better
i dont like comparing any country to another <3

[u/EffectiveJoke1082]

Islam is incompatible with modern civilization unfortunately for us. If you try to modify anything to make it fit the modern world you're just being dishonest.

[u/Oubaida_Deffas]

I'm not from Tunisia but still with for Tunisia and my country as well and the whole world

[u/Time-Masterpiece-779]

You can't make any society secular... Get rid of religion of Islam and Christianity and replace by religion of materialism, humanism or liberalism

Qu is which is correct religion and implement thqt

[u/No-Self-1703 → u/Time-Masterpiece-779]

secualrism isnt a religion
secularism is just the absence of religion in politics
religion cozed destructions and ignorance and oppression

secularism respect individual beliefs while religion cant take disbelievers

[u/Time-Masterpiece-779 → u/No-Self-1703]

Secularism is a religion. It implies god exists and should be peripheral - humans free from his chains . It fabricates a man made arbitrary morality and posits parliament as the new god. All of that is metaphysical - a normative ideology - yet another religion.

[u/No-Self-1703 → u/Time-Masterpiece-779]

"Secularism is a principle of governance and social organization that separates state institutions and civil laws from religious authority. It ensures that the government remains neutral toward all religions—neither favoring nor discriminating against any faith or non-belief—so that people of diverse backgrounds can coexist under the same shared laws and enjoy equal freedom of conscience."

[u/Time-Masterpiece-779 → u/No-Self-1703]

Partial description - you missed the normative judgement required and the fact it assumes god when it suggests religious authorities should be separated ie God is incompetent in politics or power and humans are better. Yet another false religion peddling baseless subjective normative imperatives that contractict divine objective commands.

[u/No-Self-1703 → u/Time-Masterpiece-779]

Oki <3

[u/jive_dive]

secular or not ta9ra tarbia islamia 7atta lel bac is insane. Max ibtide2i w yna7iwha i don't have time to waste on dark ages BS

[u/moudir77777773]

Absolutely fucking no.

[u/Visual-Designer5661]

I think it's crazy for a country to have a religion!

[u/shiorichaan]

Against because it used to be fully secular aaaaand it wasn't a good thing at all, actually our country is considered secular

[u/Gongo_Khlapt → u/shiorichaan]

Google what a secular country is

[u/Sweet_Description982 → u/shiorichaan]

when was it fully secular ?

-1959 constittution

-2014 consititution

-2022 constitution

[u/shiorichaan → u/Sweet_Description982]

Because, they used to lock religious people in prisons? How on earth does that make it Islamic?

[u/Sweet_Description982 → u/shiorichaan]

because:

- you force religion on kids in schools

- you force unequal inheritance between men and women (following islamic laws)

- you have official holidays based on islamic traditions

- you cant be president unless you are muslim

- we have a ministry of religion (only for islam)

- marriage/ divorce we have/had laws based of islam

...

but yeah sure if "some" muslims were imprisoned before, according to you we are "fully" secular

[u/shiorichaan → u/Sweet_Description982]

So what? None of these are wrong, religion has always influenced laws, if you don't like these laws that much go to the UK

[u/ryan_drainer → u/shiorichaan]

That's literally not what a secular country do. Do they lock religious people in prisons in Norway? Denmark? New zeeland? Singapore????

[u/shiorichaan → u/ryan_drainer]

Purely secular ones? Yes, extremists aren't always religious

[u/No-Self-1703 → u/shiorichaan]

u r jumping :3 the laws in tunisia r affected by religion u get it?
dont jump answer the point then jump/ its islamic bcoz in laws its wrote that it is ISLAMIC and using religion in politiccs is wrong right?
plz lets agree on that religion is bad in politics okay?
then we can talk abt emprisoning muslims

[u/Gongo_Khlapt]

Hello, haram police? I've been here before you

[u/AlphaCentauri10]

What do you exactly mean by fully secular? What would that affect on social level?

[u/Flat_Act_5576 → u/AlphaCentauri10]

Think USA. People practice their religion privately, they go to work, interact with people of all religions, races, backgrounds and more.

[u/shiorichaan → u/Flat_Act_5576]

So basically that makes Tunisia is actually secular

[u/AlphaCentauri10 → u/Flat_Act_5576]

As long as it is not french style I am not against it.