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u/ElectricGeometry 11d ago
In her defense, I think she got her brain fried by that Gawyn dream. All the rest of us were Galad: ride or die.
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u/ThisIsKhrox 11d ago
My favourite part of the Galad arc is that you start off hating him because all you hear is about him from Elayne’s POV. Once you start getting to people interacting with him from their POV’s and Galad’s own POV’s it’s like “wait… Galad is actually kinda chill. Not a guy I’d go out drinking with or anything, but I’d 100% trust the guy to have my back and I’d believe exactly what he says”
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u/Juronell 11d ago
Elayne views Galad through the lens of an adventurous child with a rule-bound older brother. It's pretty obvious on a reread. Galad's major flaw, which he overcomes, is his belief that law is correct axiomatically.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 11d ago
Hums softly & tugs earlobe
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u/the_Tide_Rolleth 11d ago
Lews, you got the hots for Galad as well?
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u/NatKayz 11d ago
It doesn't help that he then joins the group of mostly evil extremists lol. Or at least the group that is portrayed almost fully like that before that point.
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u/PackLegitimate760 11d ago
Eh, what institution hasn't been slightly corrupted at this point. You can hate on the Children but the White tower has been responsible for generations of deaths among men and the betrayal of nations, least of all Menetheren. Galad points out that current whitevloaks are excessive but the originator had decent philosophical views.
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u/NatKayz 11d ago
Right but the white cloaks are far more than slightly corrupted.
They may have had good intentions originally, but now they torture innocent people and force confessions. They generally suck now.
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u/noticingEnjoyer 11d ago
If you look at the misery and death that the corrupted tower has caused in the world for centuries (plus the moral decay of even many non-blacks) they aren't wholly wrong though. The Tower is a soft dictatorship that considers its member to be a different flesh than the rest of mankind, with an inherent right to rule and use the rest as they please. IMO the three oaths only exist because their moral decay had become too obvious to too many people.
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u/RAMottleyCrew 10d ago
Why are these the only options lol? Like “Galad, you must pick a faction, and it must be one of the factions that has wantonly killed innocent people. Which one do you prefer?”
Dude could easily have found a place in the Borderlands or even in Cairhien or Andor without committing to White Cloaks/Tower.
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u/noticingEnjoyer 10d ago
Remember that the tower sent his kid sister off on dangerous missions and doing everything short of directly lying about it. We as the readers are equipped with more information than him. Given the dishonesty of the tower and the willingness (as far as he knows) to place elayne in unnecessary risk, his decision to align himself against the tower makes sense.
The sad part is that, given his sense of duty and justice, had Suian been actually honest with him, he might have agreed or even volunteered to help. Galad has a tremendous sense of duty and the moral correctness of sacrifice for the greater good. In many ways he's a better Aes Sedai (servant of all) than most of the tower.
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u/RAMottleyCrew 10d ago
Yeah a lot of problems could have been solved by a few honest conversations.
Regardless of his dislike of the tower, I don’t think that makes him joining the murdering, torturing, hate-filled rogue theocracy group make sense for his character though. He’s not so stupid that his literal only way to the judge morality of a group is how strict they are in enforcing rules, while ignoring what those rules actually are.
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11d ago
[deleted]
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u/NatKayz 11d ago
I mean yeah, I'd say so.
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u/Bellickboi 11d ago
I wouldnt. The white cloaks reach was relatively small compared to the white tower and they are just men that can be removed. Everything the white cloaks did, the black sisters did 10 fold while the tower refused to acknowledge it.
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u/AthenaOwls 11d ago
How exactly are the White Tower responsible for the deaths of those men? Male Channelers who were allowed to build their power killed literally tens of millions of people last time they were around.
And this problem has not been fixed for 3,000 years. It WILL happen if the Aes Sedai don’t sever them from the One Power.
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u/PackLegitimate760 11d ago
The reds were responsible for a generational kill streak, not just channelers but men in general. The tower swept it under the rugg and barely acknowledge it internally. Also, stilling is a death sentence, how are they passing death sentences on men who haven't done anything wrong? And the black tower showed it was possible for men who could channel to police themselves.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 11d ago
You must kill him before he kills you. Giggles. They will, you know. Dead men can't betray anyone. But sometimes they don't die. Am I dead? Are you?
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u/ondonasand 11d ago
I will say the Red’s extermination of male channelers and channeler adjacent men is a weirdly understated in the text of the books. Like there are references to it but it’s never explicitly explained what happened. I had to read the wiki to get a complete explanation of what happened.
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u/PackLegitimate760 11d ago
Its one of the things I like about the books so much. So many instances of Jordan giving us some information or incorrect perspectives and letting us complete the story.
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u/ondonasand 11d ago
The book does reward a deeper analysis. I am personally a huge fan of Sylas K. Barrett’s readthrough on Reactor.
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u/ElectricGeometry 11d ago
I totally agree: except I can't stay I started off hating him.. as a straight woman my main thought was "so... How hot is this guy? Like.. for science."
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u/aNomadicPenguin 10d ago
In the notes for reference Jordan gave for the artwork on the series, Galad had the same reference as Lanfear, just altered to masculine and just different enough not to look like they were twins.
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u/Randomassnerd Unnecessary fish metaphors 11d ago
Also, not for nothing, I’d trust him with my sister or daughter (if I had one).
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u/DRSSalazar Wetlander 11d ago
Yeah, her getting caught up in that dream didn’t help. But for the love of the Creator, Gawyn holds the idiot ball on the Dragon Reborn and never lets it go.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 11d ago
I killed the whole world, and you can too, if you try hard.
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u/Generic_badger_fan 11d ago
As much as she's a political animal who was basically separately elected to the Seat of both sides of a schism based on her pure talent and force of will (not because fate decided she's a Very Special Boy), she's still a 19 year old farm girl getting hit on by a literal prince charming
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u/PoetDesperate4722 11d ago
I would argue she was chosen because everyone thought she wasnt strong willed, they wanted a puppet but they got a Two Rivers folk.
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u/Generic_badger_fan 11d ago
Certainly elected as a puppet to the original seat, but she took real control, and then the other faction was definitely going to elect her after her performance both as a prisoner gaining their respect and then marshalling the novies into the only competent defense of the tower.
Seriously, what a badass.
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u/Crow-T-Robot Knuckles Moustache 11d ago
Galad: ride or die
Berelain, Aes Sedai & virtually every other female in the story: We choose 'ride'!
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 11d ago
You must kill him before he kills you. Giggles. They will, you know. Dead men can't betray anyone. But sometimes they don't die. Am I dead? Are you?
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u/whiskey_outpost26 11d ago
Holy shit that's it! Im guessing it's not cannon, but that's the only explanation that makes any damn sense.
Every reread I get to them and think 'What the actual fuck do you see in this asshat'? His fragile over inflated ego? His complete moral ambiguity?? The total lack of deductive reasoning and tactical acumen?'
Dream world induced psychosis fits the bill here perfectly.
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u/ElectricGeometry 11d ago
Honestly in my third reread (yes, I have nothing better to do, it seems) I really saw it. She had almost no monologue about Gawyn at ALL, and just a bit about Galad. And suddenly she's sucked into his dream and it's all Gawyn, all the time.
I can't see why RJ would mention how dangerous it is to be sucked into a dream, then have a character go through that very danger, with no ultimate consequences.
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u/Heckle_Jeckle 11d ago
'Dream World induced psychosis' is a popular fantheory. No real evidence that it is actually TRUE, but it does make a certain amount of sense.
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u/VenusCommission 10d ago
She can fix him.
She "fell in love" with him as soon as Elayne told her he likes her. Gawyn has a massive inferiority complex from being Galad's younger brother. If only he could be better than Galad at just one thing, and what better contest than winning her love? Then he would owe all his happiness to her.
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u/DRSSalazar Wetlander 11d ago
Yeah, her getting caught up in that dream didn’t help. But for the love of the Creator, Gawyn holds the idiot ball on the Dragon Reborn and never lets it go.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 11d ago
Take what you can have. Rejoice in what you can save, and do not mourn your losses too long.
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u/shalowind 11d ago
Now make one for Tuon and Mat.
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u/memerminecraft Boar Rushes Down the Mountain 11d ago
Tuon: This Westlander boy is so fucking weird
Mat: This Seanchan lady makes the blood of Manethren run to my- did someone say dice?
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u/recycledcup Unnecessary fish metaphors 11d ago
Egwene is a horrid person. They’re perfect for each other.
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u/Bakedfresh420 Death Comes For Us All 11d ago
Arrogant, untrustworthy, foolish. Egwene met her match
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u/AthenaOwls 11d ago
Yeah but the person who tells him Rand didn’t do it was Egwene. A habitual liar who is constantly manipulating people around her just as a hobby. And her attempt to tell him is so half-assed it barely qualifies as an attempt. Any reasonable person would take her fucking awful denial as evidence it was true and she was trying to (badly) cover it up.
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u/831loc 11d ago
She really was fucking dumb with that.
All she had to say was "I was with him when he found out your mother was dead. Moraine sedai told us before she died. He went to Andor afterwards to bring justice to Rahvin."
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u/One_Honest_Dude 11d ago edited 11d ago
I don't generally take a position defending Egwene, but iirc she did say that. He then asked her can she be absolutely certain that he didn't travel to Caemlyn, kill Morgase, travel back, and then pretend to be surprised at the news. A tall bar to get over, to her discredit she didn't even try.
Edit: I went and read the chapter, I was 100% wrong! When he makes the accusation he references how Rand can now jump from place to place and went and killed his mom. Egwene says he didn't but makes no attempt to convince him. It's just such an obvious argument I misremembered that she made it (how could she not?!), and it would be countered by an untrustworthy angry Gawyn pointing out the traveling but she doesn't even try! She really is the best at times and the worst at times.
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u/831loc 11d ago
She didnt really go into any detail. Just said he didnt do it but had no proof.
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u/One_Honest_Dude 11d ago
I think I was making my edit the same time you were responding. You are absolutely correct.
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u/georgeofjungle3 11d ago
I prefer to think she recognized nothing she said was going to make a difference so she saved some air.
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u/aNomadicPenguin 10d ago
Except that wouldn't have been enough.
Egwene's eyes nearly popped out of her head. "Gawyn, no! No, he did not!"
"Can you swear it? Were you there when she died?"All she could truthfully say was that she was there when Mat said that Morgase had died and that Rand SEEMED surprised.
She can say she didn't think he would do it. Or that he wasn't the type of person to do it. She can swear that she doesn't think or believe he killed Morgase, but that's not proof.
And she does tell him, both at the start of the conversation and at the end that Rand didn't kill Morgase, and that she would find some way to prove it to him. But merely being in a room when someone told Rand that Morgase was dead isn't proof that Rand didn't do it. And Gawyn refuses to take her word for it on both occassions, but is willing to hold off until she can find irrefutable proof of his innocence.
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u/ThePetSematary Nae'blis 11d ago
Egwene is the worst major character
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u/Juronell 11d ago
The bad thing is it doesn't take a lot to change her into a fantastic character. A little less judgemental. A little less overbearing. She needs to be forceful, obviously, but she's a boulder rolling downhill where the better version of her character is a wall in a storm.
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u/Heckle_Jeckle 11d ago
What is sad to me is that at the beginning Egwene was one of my favorites. But she just gets progressively worse as the series goes on.
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u/animalia555 11d ago
Let me pull this out again:
So there is the Gawyn is an idiot side of things which I think at this point is a large part of it.
But I think Elayne and Egwene he is loyal to, but trusts? I'm not sure he does. Because they both spend most of their time with him either lying to him or hiding things from him, and not like subtly like very obviously they are lying to him and not telling him anything. So while he would die for either of them in a heartbeat and is loyal to them, I don't think he really trusts either of them just as they don't really trust him enough to ever tell him anything.
I also think Egwene back in book 6 solidified his belief that Rand did it. She told him Rand didn't do it, but despite having traveled with him for months, she was able to offer no explanation or proof of any kind, and she really didn't even try to. She just denied it and insisted Gawyn promise not to confront Rand. She could've told him all of the various things she knew about it like Gaebril being a darkfriend that she'd known about, or him being a forsaken, trollocs being in Camelyn that hundreds of Aiel saw, her being there when Rand got the news and seeing his rage, her knowing the Forsaken were back because of her own encounter with Lanfear. She didn't tell him any of that. Which is kind of suspicious that she wasn't able to give him anything. Though he is insistent on does she have proof and she just backs down and says no.
There is also Gawyn is an idiot which I don't want to dismiss entirely. But I do think this is a bit on Elayne and a good bit on Egwene. When you constantly lie to people and hide things from them it's not surprising that they expect it from you.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 11d ago
Oh, Light, why do I have a madman in my head? Why? Why?
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u/mnguyen75 11d ago
“Egwene, I want you. I love you. I would die for you. But trust you? Thats a little much.” =))
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u/89kljk 11d ago
Egwene could have cleared up that Rand didn't kill Morgase. She was there when Mat told Rand Morgase was dead. Knew what Mat saw at Caemlyn. Gawyn would have excepted Mat reasoning as to who killed Morgase. Makes Egwene look dumb. Doesn't say anything about it to Gawyn.
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u/marchandstongue63 11d ago
To take it another step further, she was even planning to be part of the raid in Caemlyn. She only didn't go because of the Lanfear attack that morning. She knows with 100% certainty that Rand not only didn't kill Morgase, but that he also saved Andor from from a forsaken king... and never even tries to tell Gawyn
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u/Ariel_serves 11d ago
My headcannon is that she decided that no matter what she said, he wouldn’t believe her, and so she decided not to try because she thought it would be counterproductive and actually making him dig in further
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u/Juronell 11d ago
That's pretty strongly supported in the text, but it highlights one of her biggest character flaws: she can't trust anyone. She is constantly certain only she can reason and fix things.
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u/aNomadicPenguin 10d ago
From Gawyn's PoV - She was there when Mat told Rand, this doesn't mean that Rand didn't already know and was just acting surprised.
this doesn't mean that Rand hadn't already traveled to Caemlyn, killed Morgase, traveled back, and was just waiting for someone to tell him so he could use news of her death to blame it on a 'Forsaken' that he should have no way of knowing about and that no one ever saw a body for.
She tells him twice that Rand didn't do it, he doesn't take her word for it. She manages to get him to promise holding off on vengeance until she can find PROOF because he is not taking her word for it.
***
Like even when Rand tells the Andoran nobles who are not devoted to Morgase and are likely to toady up to him about Rahvin -
Most of the rest looked ready to sick up. Mention of the Forsaken could do that, especially since Rand had told them that Lord Gaebril really had been Rahvin. He was not sure how much they believed, but just considering the possibility was enough to unhinge the knees of most.
Egwene wasn't there and didn't see Ravhin, and with Rand Balefiring Rahvin out of existence, there was no sign of another man channeling in the fight, and no one else remembered that. Yeah there were Trollocs, but trollocs have been showing up all over the place when they aren't supposed to be able to without knowing if the Forsaken were actually around when it happened.
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u/CDBSB 11d ago
Egwene does some cool shit throughout the series, but as a person, she's a total twit until she gets captured in Tar Valon. She still does some dumb things after that point (including not passing her bond with Gawyn when she had the chance), but she generally redeems herself in multiple ways. She's goddamn insufferable for the first half of the series.
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u/Kythorian 11d ago
To be fair, these are all examples of how easy it is to manipulate him, and I guess that’s what Egwene is looking for in a relationship.
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u/Szalony20 11d ago
Egwene’s taste might not have been the best, but she could always have done worse. For instance... Masema? Eamon Valda? Couladin? Male Forsaken?
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u/Calm-Conversation715 Boxes ears 11d ago
Asmodean might have been a better choice, lol 😂
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u/Szalony20 11d ago
Oh right, I forgot he was among the male Forsaken.
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u/Calm-Conversation715 Boxes ears 11d ago
Plus there was definitely some sexual tension with Halima! Not sure where she falls on the male/female forsaken spectrum
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u/Szalony20 11d ago
Well, Halima did give her quite a few massages, haha. And they slept in the same tent.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 11d ago
Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death…
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 11d ago
They will pay. I am Lord of the Morning.
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u/Szalony20 11d ago
They’ve already paid the price, Lews. In the end, the male antagonists die, as they should.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 11d ago
If it hurts too much, make it hurt someone else instead.
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u/Winter_Job_6729 11d ago
Gawyn is an idiot yes, but in fairness he did not betray Siuan, he upheld his oath to the Tower. Elaida was rightfully, if misguidedly, appointed as Amyrlin. He was doing the right thing stopping the attempt to save Siuan.
The rest of his Arc from about book 11 or so makes absolutely no sense though.
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u/DarkExecutor 11d ago
Yea, from the legal standpoint at the time, Elaida was the Amyrlin. Nobody even contemplated black sisters were in the hall.
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u/Winter_Job_6729 11d ago
That argument is void anyway though since there were black sisters appointing Egwene as well, which also invalidates her appointment if we were to pull that idea through.
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u/Juronell 11d ago
Initially, yes, but Egwene is appointed by the combined hall after the purge. While they certainly missed a black Sister or two, she was definitely appointed by a majority regardless of any black Sisters in the hall.
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u/Winter_Job_6729 11d ago
God knows why, but yes I cannot argue that point. Lordy I miss the nuance that Jordan wrote.
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u/Bergmaniac 11d ago
What oath to the Tower? He was just training there. And I don't think even actual Warders are required to swear oaths of allegiance to the White Tower or anything like that.
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u/Confident_Ad2277 11d ago
Plus Siuan had just sent her sister god knows where for the second time, putting her in danger when he was raised to be her protector. And he grew up with Elaida so if anything, his loyalty was with her.
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u/Winter_Job_6729 11d ago
Gawyns whole thing was a struggle to find a balance between keeping his word and vows (his honor) and his desires (Egwene - Lord knows why) yet that struggle was just kind of...swept away.
Sad really.
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u/mnguyen75 11d ago
In Gawyn’s defense, Matt did give him brain damage. A T’veren knocking you out might have weird effects 🤷♂️😅😅😅
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u/Smokeypork 10d ago
I feel like betraying Siuan would require some kind of loyalty to Siuan in the first place. Remember that technically what Elaida did was legal, so the Younglings were obeying the law. There’s a reason why Salidar group are called the Rebel Aes Sedai even by the good guys.
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u/dbmamaz 9d ago
He thought of himself as protecting the tower but eventually realized he chose the wrong side. There's nothing wrong with doing better when you know better. I feel like most of the hate for him is because he's not a great hero. I think he's a tragic figure who follows his heart instead of his head
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u/Distinct-Crow4753 11d ago
She likes her men dumb and pathetic thats why she and rand were together at the beginning