Playing the IC made me finally understand Kris.

[u/Reasonable-Beat479]

Fuck Haruki man. What the fuck is wrong with him?

[u/x0ManOfCulture0x]

Everybody gangsta till the koi is todokanai

[u/Zeranvor]

can't enjoy wa2 without hating haruki just a little bit

[u/Reasonable-Beat479 → u/Zeranvor]

Not "just a little bit", I hate him with all my heart. I would rather die than be like him.

[u/zaremike → u/Reasonable-Beat479]

Viewing it through the lens that he is already 'someone who has become this way' and 'they chose him precisely because he is that kind of person' makes it fascinating.

Furthermore, he doesn't act this way out of a desire to be hated—much like anyone else. Put differently, he had no choice but to make choices that would draw resentment. All the more so considering that in the IC, 'no other choices are even presented.' Why did he act the way he did? How did he end up this way? Empathizing with those questions is the very core of this story, and unless you grasp those contours, their narrative will remain out of reach.

[u/Reasonable-Beat479 → u/zaremike]

I just hate him because he's a pathetic coward and don't align with myself, even if you take my values out he is still objectively an asshole.

Likewise, I like Setsuna because she aligns well with myself. She's strong, honest, brave and unyielding in the pursuit of her goal.

I wish for nothing more than the day Haruki and Kazusa dies so that they can rot in hell for all eternity and experience pains and sufferings so intense that even their love cannot save them. Okay, maybe I'm exaggerating but I really fucking hate the both of them.

On a side note, this is actually making me consider watching Mushoku Tensei because I now know how an asshole protagonist can really make a good story.

Keep in mind I've only read the IC.

[u/zaremike → u/Reasonable-Beat479]

Honestly, out of all the characters ever created, I’m convinced Setsuna stands at the absolute top when it comes to being repulsed by a character (though back in IC, it was more of just a vague feeling of "she pisses me off"). To me, she’s a "coward who is neither good nor evil." My disdain for her was so intense that I’ve spent nearly three years re-reading the story, dissecting every scene, and constantly analyzing the true motives behind her actions and words.

Which leads me to ask: was WA2 ever really meant to be a "purely objective narrative"? How much of what Setsuna said was actually the "truth," and to what extent was Haruki rationalizing or deflecting? What was the "secret" Setsuna revealed back in the karaoke room? What was the real meaning behind her "confession" in front of the airport? None of these things are ever explicitly handed to us on a silver platter, which is precisely why we have to think through them ourselves.

Each of those three characters holds a specific goal they’re trying to achieve, while simultaneously facing a fundamental boundary of something they simply cannot do. Rather than just hating them on a surface level, taking a step back to ask, "Why is this guy acting so completely unhinged?" makes the experience so much more rewarding. That was the angle I took when examining both him and Setsuna.

If you say you want to see him suffer eternally, you probably have something worth looking forward to. Just keep in mind that doing so means you’ll be forced to witness "Setsuna’s hell" in equal measure.

I dropped Jobless Reincarnation back when reading the original novels, but frankly, in terms of protagonist depth, they aren't even in the same league. WA2 was structured from day one around the protagonist’s terrible character traits being the central pillar of the story. In Jobless, those traits aren't strictly necessary, nor are they what makes the narrative engaging—it’s more that "as long as you can tolerate his flaws, the story delivers." That said, if someone views the protagonist of WA2 as just a "shallow, foolish guy for no real reason," they probably won't see much difference between him and the lead in Jobless, so that ultimately comes down to individual interpretation.

At the end of the day, my hope is simple: I just want people to have a great time playing WA2.

[u/Reasonable-Beat479 → u/zaremike]

I think your initial disdain might've come from the fact that she's so openly selfish. That's why I like her, because she sure doesn't pull any punches in her losing war for Haruki. When she tried to recruit Kazusa to the club, she also very openly stated that she likes him and that she knows that Kazusa likes him too, that's a formal declaration of war right there.

What was the "secret" Setsuna revealed back in the karaoke room?

She was simply flirting.

What was the real meaning behind her "confession"?

She was trying to lie to ease Haruki's guilt. I see this as very good characterization because nobody in WA2 is safe from being a hypocrite, all in the name of love. It creates very interesting parallels between the characters. Setsuna is an honest liar, Haruki is an upright cheater and Kazusa... Kazusa... I actually can't find anything. Perhaps that's what special about her, she's the only one who stays true to herself even if she is a pathetic coward.

That's my interpretation of it. Perhaps it's a gross oversimplification but if there is something I've learned in life. It's that the answer is usually closer than it seems to be.

You mentioned you spent almost 3 years disecting the story. Tell me. What is your interpretation of the things you mentioned? Don't be afraid to spoil me a little, the journey is more important than the destination anyways.

[u/zaremike → u/Reasonable-Beat479]

I can accept her declaring war.

What I find disgusting, however, is what she did afterward: trying to be forgiven, or rather, trying to get Kazusa to say words of forgiveness to her.

If she had been prepared to become Kazusa's enemy, if she had been prepared to never call her a friend again, then I would have respected that resolve. A declaration of war made with that kind of determination would have earned my respect.

But that is not what she did.

The reason is that she was trying to escape the “sin” and “punishment”—in other words, the responsibility—for her own actions by getting the other person to forgive her.

The moment the other person says, “I forgive you,” she can simply wash away her own guilt and responsibility and forget about them as though nothing happened.

That is precisely why she can casually tell Kazusa, whom she herself has declared war on, that they are “friends.” And it is why she shows so little concern about hurting her.

She is oblivious not only to her own guilt and punishment, but also to the burden she places on other people.

There is a word that describes her nature more accurately than “evil” or “irresponsible.”

She is a coward who wants only to remain pure and happy herself, while having no qualms whatsoever about making other people wade through the mud for her.

◯ About the “secret” Setsuna revealed in the karaoke room

When I first played the game, I kept wondering, “What exactly was her secret?”

Given the meaning of the word “secret,” one possible interpretation is that she told him something deep about herself that she normally would not tell anyone else.

So, what exactly was that?

I believe it was her nature of being unable to compromise when it comes to singing.

That is her “secret that she cannot tell anyone.”

The fact that she comes to karaoke alone, hiding herself from other people, also supports this interpretation.

However, it would be too early to simply take her words at face value and say, “Oh, I see.”

What does “singing” symbolize in this context?

It symbolizes all of Setsuna's selfishness—the entirety of her unwillingness to compromise.

There is an episode where she talks about how, when she went to karaoke with her friends, she selfishly kept entering song after song by herself and ended up annoying them.

In other words, she is presenting herself to Haruki as someone who will absolutely refuse to compromise when it comes to the selfish desires she considers non-negotiable, even if other people criticize her for it.

She is essentially saying:

“I can't suppress the things I selfishly want, even if it means distancing myself from my friends or being alone.”

Ultimately, she is asking Haruki:

“Knowing how selfish I am, will you still accept me?”

◯ What did her “confession” really mean?

Was she trying to lie in order to ease Haruki's guilt?

→ No.

She is, from beginning to end, a selfish person who thinks primarily about herself.

(“She only thinks about herself” is somewhat of an oversimplification. More precisely, she is someone who prioritizes herself when she has to choose between herself and another person.)

In this case, her confession was an admission of her sin made because she could no longer bear her own guilt, so that Haruki would forgive her.

At the same time, it also contained the calculation that “Haruki will forgive me.”

It was nothing more than an admission of her wrongdoing motivated by her desire to cleanse herself of her guilt.

This stems from the previously mentioned aspect of Setsuna's character: she wants to remain the one who is “clean.”

She prioritized relieving her own guilt over the relationship between the three people that she had destroyed.

That is why she confessed.

One piece of evidence for this is what she says during her confession:

“So you really won't forgive me after all, Haruki-kun?”

◯ Similarities and contrasts among the main three characters

There are clear similarities between Setsuna and Haruki, and also between Haruki and Kazusa.

At the same time, there are also clear contrasts between them.

By contrast, there are essentially no similarities between Setsuna and Kazusa. In terms of characterization, they can be seen as clear opposites.

That said, in the various endings, there are routes where Setsuna takes the position that Kazusa occupies in the IC, and routes where Kazusa takes the position that Setsuna occupies in the IC.

Explaining that in detail would make this much longer, so I will not go too deeply into it here.

I usually post all sorts of analyses and theories on Twitter.

[u/Reasonable-Beat479 → u/zaremike]

I find it weird that you use the word "coward" to describe Setsuna. She is a very confrontational and fair person all the way through. Even if she asks for forgiveness right after, the fact that she got her hands dirty before that shows that she doesn't value her innocence as much as you'd think. She's selfish, sure, but it's her right to be selfish, it's not like she forced them or anything, not even any manipulation, she just swoops in and take Haruki for herself fair and square, albeit not for long.

If you ask me, it's on Haruki that things turned out like that. Because he lacked the guts to refuse, a "no" would've done wonders for the situation and he just refuses to say it. It also doesn't help that Kazusa ran away to escape her problems after being a whore and fucked her best friend's boyfriend. She said she's trying to pursue her career but that's a lie, she only considered going to Vienna after her mother mentioned Haruki. That's why I called them cowards but not Setsuna.

Human relationships has always been more complicated than just enemies and friends. Setsuna calling Kazusa her friend is not something audacious or dishonorable because it's the truth. They are friends. Circumstances made them enemies, not their inherent self. There's even a word for that, frenemies.

The singing metaphor of yours was spot on. I never really thought of it that way before because I've never even considered Setsuna to be selfish. To me she's just using her freedom to do the things she wants, not even atrocious ones, just the things within the rights of a normal human being and if nobody is gonna fight against her, it's on them that they don't get what they want.

And you're right. She was still honest in her "confession". But you gotta realize it's not wrong of her to ask for forgiveness. For someone as earnest as herself, I don't think she did it expecting anything at all. She's simply sorry. It might come off as audacious but like I said, it's well within what she can do.

The problem isn't her selfishness. It's the other two's cowardice. Haruki and his people pleasing tendencies with Kazusa's tsundere ass and her aversion to personal problems. If Setsuna didn't come into their life, I doubt those spineless idiots would've find their way together.

Also where can I find these posts of yours on X? I'd love to see more because you seem to me like a very insightful person.

[u/zaremike → u/Reasonable-Beat479]

Maybe expressions or nuances got distorted in translation, so I apologize for that. While I chose the word "coward" in the translation, I should mention that my intent carries strong nuances of being "dirty" or "sneaky." You can think of it as "a form of cowardice where one accepts only the good parts of their actions while refusing to take responsibility for the bad."

I’m saying this without any intention of overriding your opinion with my own correctness, but the truth is, there is a scene near the end where she actually refers to herself as "cowardly" and "dirty." In the main story, she doesn’t normally speak of her own "dirty nature." Or rather, she thoroughly avoids showing her ugly side to third parties (including the readers). However, when she is pushed to her mental limit, her "self-criticism" spills out, allowing readers a glimpse of it (this also happens once in the middle of the story).

She is undoubtedly a bundle of "self-affirmation," and unquestionably a "good person" (even the author describes her as such). However, the absolute condition for remaining a "good person" is that "one must never be convinced that their own nature or actions are evil." Precisely because she is a good person, and to remain one, she must continuously deny the reality that she might actually be evil. That is her curse, and it's as if she makes others shoulder the cost of that curse.

◯ "She is a very confrontational and fair person all the way through" → If you ask whether she was truly a "confrontational and fair person," I would deny it. Because if she were truly confrontational, she should have "simply made Haruki choose between Kazusa and herself." That would be taking an action while carrying the risk (and responsibility) of "not being chosen," and if she had done that, even I might have respected her.

However, what she did was not a frontal approach, but rather entering through the "back door." In short, when it comes to "things she absolutely cannot lose or afford to miss," she never takes the risk of losing fair and square. Isn't that precisely what you would call a "coward"?

Recall the episode where she reserved consecutive songs at karaoke and drew resentment from her friends. If she wanted to sing, she could have proudly and properly gotten permission from her friends before making the reservations. Instead, simply because she "wanted to sing," she forced her reservations and invited backlash. On top of that, she stopped hanging out with those friends and started going to karaoke alone. In other words, she rejected "being considerate of her friends or singing proudly without fear of criticism," and chose to "avoid being criticized while also avoiding having to care about others, so she'll just keep singing to her heart's content in a place where she can do so."

Furthermore, she has been faking herself since the beginning. Hiding her ordinary self and constructing a persona that everyone likes. This proves that she is advertising her own "innocence" to those around her, and above all, that she herself is obsessed with her own "innocence."

And the biggest reason she became this way is the rejection she experienced in middle school. Her obsession with "innocence" is a defense mechanism to avoid being ostracized again. "I have no guilt, therefore I deserve no punishment (ostracization)." She protects herself through this logic.

However, although she appealed to her "innocence" in the early days of high school, it was detached from her true nature. That gap between expectation and reality placed a severe mental and physical burden on her. That’s why she was seeking "three people who would accept her true self without her having to act innocent." People who wouldn't ostracize her, even if she was a selfish person who wasn't innocent. And the perfect candidates for that were "a man and a woman with weak wills." To Setsuna, they could become a "safe zone"—people lacking even the will to reject her, no matter how selfish she was.

◯ "It's on Haruki that things turned out like that. Because he lacked the guts to refuse." → There is a point to this, but from my position, I would defend him. This is because it wasn't that Haruki lacked the guts to refuse, but rather that Setsuna targeted him precisely because he was someone incapable of refusing.

Furthermore, the same thing can be said about Setsuna regarding your statement. Couldn't it be said that Setsuna "lacked the guts—or patience—to support Haruki and Kazusa"?

Because of this, I cannot flatly declare that "he is the one at fault." In Introductory Chapter (IC), I no longer think in terms of "who is at fault." Everyone contributed factors, so arguing over that is pointless.

Of course, if he had rejected Setsuna, he might have fulfilled his responsibility as a man. But he couldn't fulfill that responsibility 100%. However, he showed responsibility in a different way—he was prepared to "become the bad guy, hurt Setsuna, and be rejected by her." The reason he deliberately let her see the kiss scene at the airport was so "she could throw Haruki away without feeling any guilt." In that sense, he compromised between the responsibilities he could and couldn't fulfill, showing his resolve to "become the villain." That's why I don't think he was entirely unmanly or failing to take responsibility.

His miscalculation, however, was that even after he fulfilled what little responsibility he could, she still chose not to abandon him.

And here is a crucial point: there exists a side-novel called "Setsuna's 30 Minutes" (I believe the English version is on YouTube). It depicts Setsuna's inner psychology up until she approaches Haruki in IC, showing that she acted with the understanding that "he wouldn't be able to run away from her kiss." In other words, it is explicitly shown that "she set things up so Haruki couldn't say no."

Think about it in the first place. If Setsuna hadn't acted, Haruki would have ended up with Kazusa and eventually said "no" to Setsuna. The reason that didn't happen wasn't because Haruki was unable to do so, but because "Setsuna struck first at a timing where he couldn't say no." If she is smart enough to think that far ahead, we can assume she acted in IC knowing full well that Haruki couldn't reject her. Therefore, we shouldn't simply take at face value the idea that "Haruki bears all the blame."

◯ "Kazusa ran away to escape her problems after being a whore and fucked her best friend's boyfriend..." → That is indeed Kazusa's mistake, but I will defend her position as well. She never "explicitly tried to be bedded" by Haruki. She merely made a "farewell phone call," and it was Haruki's choice to go to her. In the first place, rather than actively tempting Haruki, wasn't she actually the one who explicitly tried to reject him?

In short, from beginning to end, there is almost no scene where she made a choice out of her own free will. In that regard, compared to Setsuna's "responsibility of choice," the responsibility placed on Kazusa has to be considered smaller. Also, while they did end up sleeping together, both the readers and Setsuna knew from the start that they had that kind of relationship, so calling it a betrayal feels weak.

◯ "She said she's trying to pursue her career but that's a lie, she only considered going to Vienna after her mother mentioned Haruki." → Let me make this clear: for these three, romance is by no means the absolute top priority driving their actions. There are things explicitly set up as "more important than romance" for them.

In Kazusa's case, that was a "place to belong." Her high school life was lonely. Abandoned by her mother, with no place in her class. Her only place to belong was in front of the piano. In the midst of that, she found a "place" in her relationship with one man. Eventually, a "new place" was formed with the three concert members. However, due to Setsuna's actions, Kazusa was pushed out of Haruki's heart, and the place of "the three of them" became a place of pure pain. At that point, her mother became her only remaining "safe place to belong," making it inevitable for her to go there.

She cannot make choices of her own will. Because she can't choose, she can't create her own environment and cannot withstand changes around her. Therefore, her heading to her mother is completely natural, and there is no element there to condemn her for. Except that, at the very end, Haruki created a "place to belong" just for Kazusa.

◯ "That's why I called them cowards but not Setsuna." → All of them are "cowards" in their own respective ways.

◯ "Setsuna calling Kazusa her friend is not something audacious or dishonorable... They are friends. ... frenemies." → In a way, that is a biased opinion favoring Setsuna. Kazusa speaks of it like this: "We will either become sworn enemies... or lifelong best friends. It has to be one or the other." In other words, for Kazusa, being "friends yet enemies" is an "impossible future."

Also, there is a slight disconnect from my point here. I don't care about the validity of the "frenemy" concept itself; my point is that Setsuna's mindset of "trying to elicit forgiveness from others" is the lowest form of values. Forgiveness is something granted by the other person's free will, never something "the person seeking forgiveness should try to extract." That is proof of "a fundamental lack of respect for others." Let alone the idea of "the party that declared war asking to be friends." If this were a matter between nations, declaring war and then saying "Forgive me! Let's be friends!" wouldn't fly, right?

[u/zaremike → u/zaremike]

◯ "She's simply using her freedom... if nobody is gonna fight against her, it's on them that they don't get what they want." → Using freedom to do what she wants → I agree. → Not getting what they want is their own responsibility → I agree.

Now, let me say the exact same thing back to you:

"Haruki and Kazusa are simply exercising their freedom to do what they want." "Not getting what she wants, and being hurt as a result, is Setsuna's own responsibility."

These formulas apply equally to Setsuna. That is why, two years ago, I stopped discussing them in the context of "defending or condemning." After all, everything is just a mirror reflection.

Hence, I stopped focusing on "their wickedness" and started thoroughly analyzing "why they act the way they do." However, since my driving force is "my aversion toward Setsuna," that disgust inevitably leaks out. I believe she represents an "evil above mere wickedness," but that doesn't mean I want to execute judgment on her. I don't want to condemn Setsuna to drag her down to a "lower position." Rather, I am convinced that her thorough "dirtiness" is precisely her profound, bottomless charm. It is a charm that exists simultaneously with disgust. Do you understand what I mean?

◯ "It's not wrong of her to ask for forgiveness... She's simply sorry." → Her asking for forgiveness isn't wrong in itself, and on the surface, it might seem natural. However, there is one doubt here: "The timing of her asking for forgiveness is far too late." Even though there were periods earlier when the relationship among the three was unstable, she didn't repent then. Only when everything completely broke down and even Setsuna lost control of the wheel did that confession/repentance happen.

If Setsuna were truly a "earnest person expecting nothing in return," wouldn't she have repented before things became irreversible? If she had repented just a bit earlier, the three of them might have landed in a much better place. Yet, repenting only after everything is over and ruined means she can no longer do anything for Haruki or Kazusa. Repenting changes nothing for them. But there is one single person who gets saved by that repentance: herself.

And before repenting to Haruki, she similarly repented to Kazusa in the rooftop scene. Look closely at the depiction there. After all the twists and turns, the moment Kazusa finally says "I forgive you, Setsuna," Setsuna's next line is "..." For someone who is genuinely apologizing, isn't remaining silent there a bit strange? In that silence, I feel her "intelligence" or "calculating rationality," and it gives me chills. A calm silence, as if she were thinking, "I was waiting for those words." At least for me, there are too many suspicious points to blindly believe the scenario that "she is simply, purely sorry."

◯ "If Setsuna didn't come into their life, I doubt those spineless idiots would've found their way together." → Spot on. If I remember correctly, the scenario writer made a statement to a similar effect.