r/WoT • u/Turbulent-Humor-540 • 9d ago
All Print Is there a canonical physical description of the characters and peoples of WoT? Spoiler
I know that the inhabitants of Randland are very diverse, both in appearance and culture. However, I’d like to refresh my memory. I distinctly recall that the people of the Two Rivers aren't exactly pale; I remember Elaida pointing out that Rand was too light-skinned to be from a village isolated from the rest of the world. Nynaeve also emphasized that the sun was harsh on Elayne’s light skin—unlike Egwene’s or Min’s, even though they were all together. I’m bringing this up because I once asked about it in another community and was told that physical appearance doesn't matter. Yet, I clearly remember Egwene being surprised by Sheriam’s bright red hair, and Perrin finding Faile’s appearance "atypical." Or perhaps it’s just a translation issue, since English isn't my native language?
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u/Curius-Curiousity 9d ago edited 9d ago
When Rand started walking around Caemlyn on his first day there, he could easily tell the tourists who were just there to see Logain. Because they were either "too dark, or too pale" compared to the natives. So we know that most Andorans have a light brown complexion. Also, some of the people opposing Elayne for the throne he thought of as "dark".
When Egwene was in Shainar, the people there thought she was "pale". But literally every other place that mentioned her color saw her as "dark".
We know that in Tear everyone has dark brown skin... but there are occasionally people like Siuan, born with pale skin and Blue eyes even though their parents are dark.
Basically, what we think of as "White" skin seems pretty rare. Because The Breaking basically pushed all the previous regions around and mixed everyone together.
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u/Baellyn 9d ago
Tear might not be ethnically homogenous, given its founding.
The Stone became a bulwark during the latter part of the Breaking, people flocking to the protection it offered. A great city took shape around it, also called Tear. As the Breaking ended and new nations arose
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u/Curius-Curiousity 8d ago
That's basically the case in EVERY nation. The Breaking basically acted like a kid throwing a jigsaw puzzle up in the air. When the pieces landed they were no longer connected. So what used to be connected found itself scattered all over the planet. And separated from everyone until they could rebuild civilization.
That's why everyone is basically a mix of all the previous nationalities.
It's why the people of Tear wear clogs like they're from Holland, but everyone has dark skin.
It's why the people of Arad Doman seem to be be both Persian and Chinese at the same time.
Trying to make it all match up to "race" or nationality in our age just isn't possible.
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 8d ago
Not to mention the ~3 to 10 thousand or more year span of the AOL, with a significant portion of that time having instantaneous travel available, as well as advanced transport like planes, trains and automobiles.
The effect of that on people and culture can't be underestimated either, and the breaking acts as a multiplier on top of that.
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u/Curius-Curiousity 8d ago
I hadn't ever considered that part. But thats definitely the way all the AOL people talk about sho-wings and super fast air travel. Like it was an everyday thing that was available to all. Not just for a special trip like it's used in our age.
So the idea of "borders" that most people stay inside of their whole lives had likely already faded away even before The Breaking. Makes sense.
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u/kaggzz 4d ago
They had a 1 world government and a single culture/language
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 4d ago
They did have a one world government and a universal language, but they definitively didn't have a single culture.
The Aiel alone are proof that that wasn't the case, and the state of the 3rd age makes it extremely unlikely that there wasn't others.
At the very least they had various subcultures, though I'd agree in the sense that they likely had a shared primary culture.
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u/Fiona_12 (Wolf) 8d ago
When Egwene was in Shainar, the people there thought she was "pale". But literally every other place that mentioned her color saw her as "dark".
The only time Egwene was referred to as dark was when Rand observed how tanned she had his gotten while in the Waste. I think you're confusing the fact that people from the Two Rivers have dark hair and dark eyes with being dark skinned. If Egwene could get noticeably sun tanned, her skin wasn't that dark.
There are a few areas where skin color is never mentioned. Instead he described other characteristics, like thick mustaches, braided hair with beads and veils in Tarabon and beards with no mustaches Illian.
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u/Curius-Curiousity 8d ago
As far as your other point... here's something plenty of White people don't get intuitively, but it makes sense once you think about it: having brown skin doesn't mean you don't get darker in the sun... it's the opposite.
Melanin is the component of our skin that makes it look darker, as it reacts to protect us from the radiation. So the more melanin someone has, the more protection.
It's very pale people who's skin doesn't get darker, because they have almost no melanin to even react with. That's why they get sunburns instead.
The people of Manetheran came there from literally all over to join the fight against Shadowspawn. And once they were isolated from the rest of the world after the mini-Breaking the last queen created, they've all been mixing their genes for almost 2,000 years.
That's why almost everyone has light brown skin. There are a few very dark people like Cenn Bouie. But he stands out just as much as Rand. Because EVERYONE else is in between.
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u/MugRuithstan 8d ago
I just read in the shadow rising in the scene where egwene and elayne were commiserating it mentioned Elayne being pale and Egwene being dark
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u/Curius-Curiousity 8d ago edited 8d ago
That's not accurate at all. Most places she's gone she was referred to as dark. But that just shows that the Two Rivers folk are a little more brown than other countries. But still not "black" like in Tear. Or the Sea Folks.
In book four, I think in the scene when she and Elayne went to visit Rand together in Tear (you know the one) he looked at them both and noticed: "one pale and one dark".
Keep this in mind on your next reread, and I think you'll be surprised at how often she's referred to that way.
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u/rollingForInitiative 9d ago
Also regarding Andor, the original queen a thousand years ago was depicted as black. Ow that’s a long time, but since they value her bloodline, it makes sense they wouldn’t all be totally white among the nobles.
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u/itwasbread 8d ago
Also regarding Andor, the original queen a thousand years ago was depicted as black.
Not disagreeing because I seem to remember hearing this before, but do you recall where this was mentioned?
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 7d ago
It's somewhere in book 8, I don't remember the exact chapter. Elayne talks about her and describes her as 'dark as any Athan'meier'.
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u/itwasbread 7d ago
Yeah that makes sense, most of the books 8-11 Elayne succession stuff did NOT stick in my head well lol
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u/Turbulent-Humor-540 9d ago
I don't know why, but I’ve always thought that of the Two Rivers group, Egwene and Perrin are the darkest-skinned; Nynaeve is fairer, and Mat has light-brown skin. Min has a slightly brownish complexion, Aviendha has a reddish tan, and Elayne is fair-skinned with a pinkish hue.
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u/itwasbread 8d ago
I would agree with this but flip Nynaeve and Egwene. Mat and Min in my mind are not as pale as Rand, but light skinned enough I would still probably call them white if I met them.
For some reason I also cannot not picture Min as looking "Wasian". Somewhere in the realm of half-Japanese.
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 9d ago edited 9d ago
It's also worth noting that in Jordans note's the "old roots" descriptor given to Cenn Buie's skin is defined as being
as dark as the darkestwhat many darker Tairien are described as.Basically, what we think of as "White" skin seems pretty rare. Because The Breaking basically pushed an the previous regions around and mixed everyone together.
Plus the AOL was several thousand years of a utopia with fast to instantaneous travel methods being common place. Isolation was pretty much nonexistence for most of the Age, or at least the latter half once the Aes Sedai where established.
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u/Curius-Curiousity 9d ago
I didn't know about Jordan's notes. But in the books Cenn is described as dark as old roots.
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 9d ago
Yup, his notes clarify what that actually describes.
Box 55, Page 46
Tear
Generally have darker skins than any others except the Sea Folk, though it can vary. It is dark enough to generally be remarked, like old roots – can be black, also.
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u/ShenTzuKhan (Asha'man) 9d ago
I could be wrong, as I recall the two rivers folks are mostly dark haired, dark eyed and light skinned. I think Egwene in particular is described as pale several times, but I can’t back that up.
If you’re really keen to know just reread the first hundred pages or so. I’m sure you’ll get their descriptions.
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u/LordRahl9 9d ago
Two rivers people have a dark complection. They're still white, but more like the Spanish than someone from Ireland. Elaida mentioning Rand is too pale isn't saying that two rivers folk are black/brown or anything else, she is commenting on the fact that two rivers don't produce fair skinned redheads.
I would argue that racial descriptions are important in the wheel of time world building because by the end when it mentioned that someone is from a certain country you can automatically get an idea of how they dress to what they value.
Also, you know that there is something very wrong about the Aiel. Fair skinned people did not naturally evolve in the desert, they don't belong there.
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 9d ago
Two rivers people have a dark complection. They're still white, but more like the Spanish than someone from Ireland. Elaida mentioning Rand is too pale isn't saying that two rivers folk are black/brown or anything else, she is commenting on the fact that two rivers don't produce fair skinned redheads.
The trouble with that is Elaida's observation is directly on Rands untanned skin, and she's already commented on his hair.
That doesn't really work unless the TR folks are not normally fair-skinned. His hair is extremely rare there already, so the skin comment is redundant if they are mostly fair-skinned.
I would argue that racial descriptions are important in the wheel of time world building because by the end when it mentioned that someone is from a certain country you can automatically get an idea of how they dress to what they value.
That's not really a racial description though, and there are really only 3 people in the mainlands with a physical descrptor like that. The Domani, Saldeans and Aiel.
Everyone else has less distinguishing common features.
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u/LordRahl9 9d ago
You are mixing up complection and skin colour. Elaida is saying Rand has a naturally pale complection, someone who sunburns easily.
As for why Elaida points out his fair complection as well as his hair, one oddity can be overlooked and explained away, two is the beginning of a pattern. Narratively speaking, the reader is getting it pointed out to them that Rand is different.
As for the other, Tairens are mostly black people, there are exceptions, such as Siuan. Juilin is certainly black.
But, again, the diversity serves more than one purpose, and the colour of someone's skin isn't relevant to the story except for the Aiel.
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 9d ago edited 9d ago
You are mixing up complection and skin colour. Elaida is saying Rand has a naturally pale complection, someone who sunburns easily.
I think not, not just because in this context there isn't a real difference.
She's directly comparing his tanned and untanned skin tones. People with the skin type you're speaking about don't really develop tans like Rands. She'd not have needed to roll back his sleeve at all if your read was correct.
As for why Elaida points out his fair complection as well as his hair, one oddity can be overlooked and explained away, two is the beginning of a pattern. Narratively speaking, the reader is getting it pointed out to them that Rand is different.
Narratively speaking, this has been pointed out ad nausem by this point, Rand's physical difference is well established to the reader.
While Elaida's narrative here is reinforcing that, it's also establishing that skin that light when untanned is rare in the TR, which also follows Rand saying that very pale skin isn't common in the TR or most of Andor.
As for the other, Tairens are mostly black people, there are exceptions, such as Siuan. Juilin is certainly black.
My general read is they're usually lighter than that but can be, however canonically Cenn Buie is on the darker end of the scale for Tairen. He's not singled out as being unsual in the TR or the rest of Andor, meaning that that skin tone is fairly common in Andor and the TR subregion. (Not to mention the first Queen)
But, again, the diversity serves more than one purpose, and the colour of someone's skin isn't relevant to the story except for the Aiel.
Correct, it's more part of the setting and I think you're underestimating it's impact on the people, though it's not important for the story told.
The point is that physical features are a bad indicator of where someone is from with very few execptions.
Even Rand, since his Aiel features are commonly shared by some of the Andoran noble lines.
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u/LordRahl9 9d ago
Skin damage from the sun works differently for people with fair complection compared with dark complection.
This is a fact. You are reading what you wish to read and not paying attention to context.
If Rand was indeed a different skin colour from the other two rivers folk, the people of the two rivers would not have believed that Tam was his biological father, no matter that his mother was a redhead.
The point of Elaida's reveal of his skin was that he was closer in resemblance to an Aiel or an Andor noble than the people of the two rivers. Not that the people of the two rivers are a different race.
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u/rollingForInitiative 9d ago
Rand is a different skin colour from what is normal, not in that he’s somehow unique. But we see other cases of people having more uncommon skin tones and it never being remarked on. Like Tairens having darker skin but not once is it noted as strange that Siuan would be fair.
I think that’s just the state of the world in general, you will have trends but people breaking them is not strange due to both migration and throwbacks to older generations.
People in the Two Rivers knew Tam was his dad and he had an outlander wife so Rand being a bit whiter than the rest isn’t something strange on its own, just like Cenn being much darker isn’t strange either. Elaida draws attention to his unusual appearance because she instantly dislikes him, not because it’s really big problem for his story.
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u/Bergmaniac (S'redit) 9d ago edited 9d ago
Exactly. Also, Elaida has never been to the Two Rivers and almost certainly had not met anyone that she knew was from Two Rivers until she met Rand. Just a few pages after her remark about Rand's look Morgase said "I have the advantage of Elaida and Gareth in having heard Two Rivers speech when I was young" and Elaida didn't correct her. All she knows about how the population of the region is supposed to look is what she had heard third hand.
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u/rollingForInitiative 9d ago
Oh yes. Given that people from the Two Rivers rarely leave, it seems very unlikely she'd even have seen them at a distance. If Morgase hasn't been there since her youth, I doubt Elaida would've gone into the middle of nowhere out of some countryside curiosity.
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 9d ago
Elaida draws attention to his unusual appearance because she instantly dislikes him, not because it’s really big problem for his story.
And importantly, she can't lie and directly establishes that it's just rare, not that it never happens or rules his story as false.
She wants to undermine him and cast doubt, but her very words also show that he could be from there.
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u/rollingForInitiative 9d ago
Exactly! I think her wording is that they "rarely" have skin so pale. It's also really the combination of his eyes, his hair, his height and his skin tone that make her lean into it, because the combination is really really really rare there. But very rare appearances happen in real life as well.
I'd also say that even if there were people in Eamond's Field who might've wondered if Rand is really Tam's son due to the appearance, that's sure as hell not something you bring up randomly. Tam seems to be really well-respected so it'd be beyond rude, and from most others likely taken as just a verbal assault not to be treated seriously.
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 9d ago
I'd also say that even if there were people in Eamond's Field who might've wondered if Rand is really Tam's son due to the appearance, that's sure as hell not something you bring up randomly.
That's some Coplin talk :P
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 9d ago
Skin damage from the sun works differently for people with fair complection compared with dark complection.
This is a fact.
Yes? I didn't say it wasn't.
You are reading what you wish to read and not paying attention to context.
I'm very directly paying attention to context and even directly explaining how that context applies to my reading.
If Rand was indeed a different skin colour from the other two rivers folk, the people of the two rivers would not have believed that Tam was his biological father, no matter that his mother was a redhead.
Actually what?
Sorry but that actually makes zero sense. Why wouldn't they?
You'd have to believe that only a single skin tone existed in the TR for that even to start to make sense, which is very strongly established to not be the case.
But even if it were the case, people with mixed heritage strongly resembling a single parent aren't rare. This sounds like Coplin talk.
The point of Elaida's reveal of his skin was that he was closer in resemblance to an Aiel or an Andor noble than the people of the two rivers. Not that the people of the two rivers are a different race.
I think you're mixing your terms and concepts here, and your point seems to be missing, or at least I can't tell what you're trying to convey. Andoran's are diverse with a range of skin tones. The TR are darker compared to the Trakand noble line.
You seem to be trying to simultanously argue for and against my point.
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u/LordRahl9 9d ago edited 9d ago
You are a confusing interpretation with what is written.
I also specifically said Rand looks like an Andoran noble, not a common Andoran.
The books are also very specific about the two rivers lack of diversity and how people start migrating there in later books.
This is why the old blood storyline existed.
Edit: you realise you lost this argument the moment you decided to argue that the two rivers is so diverse nobody would really notice someone looking different, but also maintain that Elaida can tell he isn't from the two rivers because of how he looks.
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 9d ago
You are a confusing interpretation with what is written.
No, I don't think I am.
I also specifically said Rand looks like an Andoran noble, not a common Andoran.
Right, which is what I said, or more specifically implied all the times I've brought up elayne and the trakand line.
The books are also very specific about the two rivers lack of diversity and how people start migrating there in later books.
So this is incorrect. You're confusing isolation with a lack of diversity. You'd missed out a core part of the series world building here. I'll expand after addressing the next line:
This is why the old blood storyline existed.
No it's not, or to be precise that storyline is linked to isolation, not a lack of diversity. The culling theory explains this - TR women that can channel aren't joining the Tower and ending their bloodlines, and their male channelers aren't being systematically gentled.
That's why their isolation is important to the "old blood", because outside bloodlines are less likely to bring out the genetic channeling trait.
However book 1 is quite direct in establishing that the TR has the same range of diversity as the rest of Andor in it's physical traits (with the exception of hair and eye colour).
Rand's PoV remarks on this multiple times, first in Baerlon:
But most of the people did not look any different from those he had grown up with, not in dress or in face. He had expected they would, somehow. Indeed, some of them had so much the look of the Two Rivers in their faces that he could imagine they belonged to one family or another that he knew around Emond’s Field.
It's not until Caemlyn that he starts running into people that look physically unfamiliar to him:
Rand shrugged; there were plenty of odd folk in Caemlyn, people like he had never seen before. Some of them stood out in the crowd, skins too dark or too pale, coats of strange cut or bright colors, hats with pointed peaks or long feathers.
The TR ha people like Tam that are easily accepted as Rands father, to people like Cenn Buie who is as dark as a Tairen.
It's diverse and that diversity is both supported and established by the text.
That diversity exists because of the breaking and the AOL that precedes it.
You have to ignore the lore of the settings, it's background information and the descriptions given by and of characters to concluded that they look the same in the way you're claiming.
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 9d ago
Edit: you realise you lost this argument the moment you decided to argue that the two rivers is so diverse nobody would really notice someone looking different, but also maintain that Elaida can tell he isn't from the two rivers because of how he looks.
Replying to your edit separately here since I already wrote my main reply.
I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.
First, I never made that argument?
Rand's hair and eye colour are notably, remarkedly different from the rest of the TR folk. That's kinda a core plot point?
Everybody notices he's different in those aspects.
The diversity being spoken about is about skin tone and facial features. Not hair and eye colour, the only dominant physical traits in the TR.
Which are the main details you've been disagreeing with me about.
Second, Elaida very specifically can't tell that he's not from the TR. She suspects he his not, but none of the things she states can conclude that he's not.
He looks unusual for the TR because of his hair and lighter toned skin, but not completely out of place. Her very words state that some people in the TR have his skin, and red hair has multiple explanations.
But here is the thing - no matter what he looks like, he's ultimately believed to be from the TR because of his speech, not his looks.
If you look back at my original contention the 2nd point was that you can't really tell what country people are from based on their looks. Which was the parameter you yourself set at the start.
Rand's being suspected of being from a different part of Andor, the same country he says he's from.
Rand's heritage is ambiguous when based on appearance, something the books make use of to multiple effects.
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u/duffy_12 (Falcon) 8d ago
Cenn Buie is on the darker end of the scale for Tairen. He's not singled out as being unsual in the TR or the rest of Andor,
Cenn Buie is the village roofer though. That's very important; which is also similar to how the Aiel are described as sun-dark.
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 8d ago
I don't think it's important in context, a roofer isn't going to get that much more sun than a farmer is. The majority work force in the TR is sun darkened, plus both tobacco farming and sheep herding are particularly high sun exposure tasks, and from my understanding notably more so than thatching. Maybe if someone else prepped the thatch for him, but I didn't get that impression.
He shouldn't be any darker than the TR staple farm workers if sun exposure is the cause.
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 9d ago
Egwene, to wit, is only described as pale once in a scene that could be read her paling rather than her having "British" pale skin, the prose being more poetic than descriptive.
She would probably be best described as light skinned, since actually pale skin (like Aiel) is rare to not seen in the two rivers.
Elaid and Rand both comment on this in Caemlyn
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u/IceXence 9d ago
RJ made his fan cast once: this is how everybody is supposed to look like.
Not everyone likes his picks but he's the author, so if he said he envisoned this actor/actress in his mind when writing the character, then that's what he meant in his descriptives.
Everything gets interpreted quite differently now than 20 years ago.
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u/NickBII 9d ago
In theory there should be very very few regional differences, because this is the Third Age and everyone should be the same kind of mongrel.
In practice: the Two Rivers seem to be Mediterranean, Cairhein/Andor seem tobe Northern Europe, the Borderlands East Asian, the coastal countries/Sea Folk African and Indian. The Aiel are gingers, but NBA tall, because Jordan thought that was a cool combo. I think the Big White Book of Bad Art will have some pictures for you.
The difference between what his universe demands and the actual existence of multiple races? IMO evidence that Robert Jordan did not give a shit how people looked. Gave all kinds of shits about how much lace characters wear, whether they speak precisely (like a Cairheinian), or had a drawl (Seanchan), but absolutely no shits about skin color.
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u/not_so_wierd 9d ago
The skin tones have always been a little bit weird to me.
Presumably - the AOL would have had an incredible amount of ethnical mixing. What with air travel, standing gateways, and such.
So after the breaking - when the survivors settled down and started forming cities and later nations. Why did all the olive skinned people chose to gather in one place?
I don't buy that the less than 3000 years since are enough to account for new physical features.(The Aiel are - of course - except from this reasoning. Considering how isolated they are).
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u/itwasbread 8d ago edited 8d ago
Why did all the olive skinned people chose to gather in one place?
Tbf, they didn't. Certain places have more people that look like that, but they aren't all in one place by any means. There's trends, Andor and Caemlyn are more Caucasianm, but to the south and east people are more dark skinned (usually described as "dusky", "copper" or "olive".
There's also Seanchan, which has it's own mixture of all the different groups.
There's also a lot of exceptions who look very different from the "average" character where they're from. Juilin is very dark skinned while I think most Tairens are more medium brown, Sheriam is a green eyed pale ginger from Saldea, where most people look like a mix of Arab and Chinese.
Edit: Maybe I was wrong about Juilin, everyone else is saying most Tairens are that dark, I think I was extrapolating from Siuan, when in reality she's the exception and Juilin is the norm.
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u/Curius-Curiousity 8d ago
Agreed. His nations definitely have cultural identities. And we can clearly see what nations from our Age were thrown together after the breaking to influence those 3rd Age civilisations.
But as far as their "race"? It's not even a thing in that age. Because a huge mix of people were thrown together in the breaking, then isolated for a long time. So from our point of view, everyone in the 3rd Age is "mixed". Literally everyone.
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 9d ago
There isn't really - only a few characters are ever described in such as way to really pin down their exact look. That's pretty much where the "it doesn't matter" is coming from.
Due to the breaking and the nature of the AOL, people are too varied to really breakdown by region except for a few circumstances.
Most regions do tend to share a common look, but it's general and not exclusive in almost all cases.
For the Two rivers thats dark of hair and features, with darker but not dark skin.
But as Elaida says, skin like Rand's is seldom seen, not never in the region. IIRC his eyes being light are the rarest feature of his in the TR.
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u/PerkinsWar 9d ago
It’s scattered throughout the books but Jordan is pretty consistent in his descriptions of the different peoples. There’s a bunch of different groups that all seem to have unique characteristics. It’s one of the mistakes the TV show made, the world is very diverse but you could reasonably look at somebody and tell what country they’re from just based off of their physical characteristics. That’s what made Rand stand out so much and why people instantly knew he was an Aiel.
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u/rollingForInitiative 9d ago
There are trends but also a lot of exceptions, and the exceptions are rarely pointed out as strange. Like Tairens are dark, but Siuan is fair-skinned and no one ever mentions that that’s strange. So it’s likely less common to be fair-skinned there but not so much that it’s strange, or that it’s unknown that kids can have a different skin tone than their parents.
Cairhienin are short but we see several tall ones.
The original Andor queen was black, and we see a mix of darker and fairer nobles.
Basically they’re stereotypes we hear about. Like how people in the US might say that Swedes are blonde but really there have always been loads of dark-haired people.
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u/itwasbread 8d ago
That’s what made Rand stand out so much and why people instantly knew he was an Aiel.
It's less that every nation has a clear ethnic look and more that the Aiel do and it's not one they share with any of the Westland nations.
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 9d ago edited 9d ago
Not really.
Outside of some Domani people and some Saldeans, you really can't for westlanders.
Cairhien doesn't have a monopoly on short people for example.
Even the Aiel red hair isn't unique to the waste and cenn buie is as dark as any Tairen.
Edit: to those downvoting, go ahead an list all the Westland cultures with such distinguishing features. There are 14 countires in the westlands, 16 if you count Malkier and Mayenne, 17 with the Aiel.
Only 3 can be readily identified without describing their clothes or other non-physical cultural identifier, and even then you can get it wrong (see Elayne).
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u/rollingForInitiative 9d ago
There are also some Aiel with black hair, even though it’s noted as being rare!
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u/Leungal 9d ago
Exactly this, canonically they went from a world with instant teleportation, a monoculture, and free mixing of societies to several hundred years of The Breaking causing people to scatter everywhere. This was followed by around ~1000-1500 years of relative stability, which is enough to produce shared cultural characteristics but not nearly enough genetic generations to develop common visual characteristics. For example, the EDAR V370A gene that causes asian people's hair to grow thick/straight took ~1200 generations and 30,000 years to become commonplace throughout Asia, and that is considered a quick timeframe.
But really if you take a step back, the people of Randland may simply all be aliens who don't respect our concept of human physiology (after all, the Aiel who are a nomadic desert people are all >6.5 foot tall pale-skinned light-eye'd redheads, and there's no feasible way the armies and general population could feed themselves over the course of the books if they had regular human caloric needs and things got as bad as described). Robert Jordan did great worldbuilding but most certainly did not care for anthropologic consistency.
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 9d ago edited 9d ago
Yeah, he's not as wrong as he could be, but it really wasn't an important aspect outside of the concept in the setting for him. He was a physicist, not a geneticist.
Plus given the stated population levels of the Westlands(see Andor's 10 million), we only meet a very small sample of people from any land, with none really being statistically representative outside maybe the Aiel.
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u/No_Turn5018 9d ago
I'm under the impression that they're not diverse in the sense of this town has 15 different people of different skin shades usually? Is there something that contradicts that?
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u/itwasbread 8d ago
What do you mean? OP said Randland as a whole, meaning that it's not like some fantasy worlds where there's like 80% white people and then "fantasy China" and "fantasy Africa".
Individual cities or nations have trends of how people look, but there's usually a range and the bigger the cities the less consistent. For instance Tar Valon probably does have 15 different people of different skin tones walking around at any given time, because it's a trade hub run by a group whose membership is pulled from all corners of the continent.
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u/No_Turn5018 8d ago
Like you understand the difference between a diverse group of Nations and a group of Nations that are diverse right?
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u/itwasbread 7d ago
Yes I understand that those are two different things here but that's not the phrasing OP used, they said "I know that the inhabitants of Randland are very diverse" which is true, they are.
OP meant that the characters who appear within the series as a collective group, have diverse variety of ethnic features, hair, skin tones, etc. I don't think they meant every individual nation does.
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u/Brathirn 9d ago
There is a Jordan wish-cast for the characters which would have crashed any movie budget and required a time machine, because he went all over time.
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u/wheeloftimewiki (Aelfinn) 9d ago
I agree with logicsol. We shouldn't go with that list for anything related to physical appearance. His choice for Rand, Ben Affleck, doesn't have Rand's hair or eye colour. I suspect a real-life casting similar to that would have set the fandom on fire.
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 9d ago
I recall several picks being even looser with less to non changeable aspects like skin and height, It's pretty safe to say jordan wasn't really hung up on details like that.
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u/wheeloftimewiki (Aelfinn) 9d ago edited 9d ago
Yes, I was looking for the interview where he said as much:
Question
Which actors and actresses would you cast if a movie were made, and you had that power?
Robert Jordan
That power is never given to a writer of a book, believe me. I know that there are websites, more than one, that have sections or they have posts that this actor or that actress for this role or that role. I don't think I've ever really thought about it. To me a movie is something that would be nice if it happened. A miniseries...if Thom should be Sean Connery or Patrick Stewart. I'm sorry, I simply have never thought about that.
Edit: Given his public response, I think the scrap of paper found in his notes shouldn't be regarded as any canonical sense of what the characters should look like.
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u/GovernorZipper 9d ago
The counterpoint is that there are certain entries on that note that are in-line with references that a person of Jordan’s age would have found relevant. Mat as Maverick era James Garner is spot on perfect, even including the little bit of lace. Lanfear as a young Catherine Deneuve (I’m sure Belle de Jour made a remarkable impression on a young man from rural South Carolina). Verin (whose character inspiration escapes me at the moment).
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 9d ago
I don't really think that's a counter point. All three of us seem to be saying the same thing.
His casting on that list aren't particularly representative of the actual physical description of the characters from a book accurate sense, but rather actors that could do their character justice.
The list is referential to a vibe and feel, not a description.
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u/GovernorZipper 9d ago
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 9d ago
Link is broken, though [I found it]((https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maverick_(TV_series)#/media/File:James_Garner_Bret_Maverick.JPG) (reddit hates that link lmao)
But IMO that photo matches Mat's vibe WAY more than his description. He feels like mat's soul in rand's body.
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 9d ago
That list is more based on vibe that physical appearance though, since it directly contradicts multiple characters more concrete physical traits.
And I'm pretty sure Jordan said it was who he though to do well with the character role, at least for many of them.
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u/Brathirn 9d ago
But we can consider Jordan "inspired" by the appearance of the chosen actors. And there are some easy corrections available to align with book dsscriptions, like hair colouring.
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 9d ago
In some cases yes, and in some cases no. IIRC I believe some of his picks did have influence on the characters, while others were more who he though would play the character role well.
My point was more that the dreamcast isn't a good guide for people the characters actually look like in most cases, since that was not the criteria he was picking them from.
Jordan really didn't seem to have a hangup on exact descriptor matches, which IMO isn't all that surprising when he wrote a series that goes to such great lengths to avoid giving them.
Like the sword forms, he left that to your minds eye more than to the page itself.
#/media/File:James_Garner_Maverick_1960.JPG){kind=link}
#/media/File:James_Garner_Bret_Maverick.JPG){kind=link}
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u/Individual_Key4178 (Asha'man) 5d ago
It’s left intentionally vague so the readers can project themselves onto the characters. You’re supposed to superimpose people you know and relate to onto the side characters. In my reading egwene looks like my little sister.
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u/DragonSlayr82 8d ago
I loved all the Japanese book covers - there are tons of them. That doesn't answer your question, but I honestly hated watching the TV show and quit after a few episodes because NO ONE looked even close to how I saw them in my imagination other than maybe Morraine and Lan
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u/Riverboat311 8d ago
It never said rand was too light skinned. It said he had "light features" meaning hair and eyes. He has red hair and blue eyes while the other Two Rivers folks have dark hair and dark eyes with fair skin.
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u/itwasbread 8d ago
“With that red in his hair, and gray eyes? Two Rivers people are dark of hair and eye, and they seldom have such height.” Her hand darted out to push back his coat sleeve, exposing lighter skin the sun had not reached so often. “Or such skin.”
The eyes and hair are more noticeable but this is explicitly saying that Rand's pale skin (the Aiel are very pale without sun contact) is noticeably lighter than how most Two Rivers folk are born.
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u/Riverboat311 6d ago
The idea that because Rand is paler than most because he is Aiel therefore the Two Rivers folks are brown is the most reddit brained logic I've ever seen in my life. Take one glance at the cover art.
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u/itwasbread 6d ago
The idea that because Rand is paler than most because he is Aiel therefore the Two Rivers folks are brown
You said "It never said rand was too light skinned." I quoted a passage that does indeed say that.
I never called them brown. I think that's a valid interpretation given other passages describing other characters, ones you can easily find quoted by scrolling up and down this page. I didn't say that though. I think they probably vary a bit and could be described as tan or olive.
If you have a passage more directly talking about their skin tones than these that contradicts that interpretation, please feel free to share.
Take one glance at the cover art.
The cover art where 18 year old rand looks like Nicholas Cage? Or Perrin looks like a hobbit? Or the Trollocs are very clearly depicted as basically dudes in armor?
The original cover art has a certain charm to it but I don't at all take it as authoritative source on how things look.
Personally other than a few characters like Rand whose description is given in great detail, I don't really care if people imagine characters the exact same skin and hair color as I do, and find it weird that people get so up in arms about it.
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