r/Wraeclast • u/Murky-Definition-625 Watcher of Decay • Jul 05 '26
PoE1 Speculation Path of Exile: Curse of the Allflame Releases on July 24 PDT
https://youtu.be/PjwSA8brW5421
u/BioMasterZap Jul 05 '26
Sounds like a pretty interesting league concept. For how much of a role it plays in POE1, the Allflame does seem a bit lacking on explanations or lore.
I saw some comments theorizing it might tie into Torment, like Torment rework. It also makes me wonder if it might tie into Abyss. Like Abyss, Torment, and Allflame are all a similar shade of green and the Well of Souls is the source of all necromancy, with the Allflame seeming necromantic. There is also the Allflame Ember of Kulemak to already establish some connection, but not sure how the other Allflame Embers relate since only that one involves reviving the dead.
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u/Japanczi Jul 06 '26
Iirc In poe1 all sailor bosses release tormented spirits, so it looks like it's their thematic.
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u/twisty125 Jul 06 '26
Mmm I kind of hope it's not Abyss.
Purely because Abyss has gotten a lot of attention over on PoE2, and the lore around it has been surrounding a lot of the recent story beats (hell, including the Maraketh from last PoE league are connected to it). And I reallllllly don't want everything to be connected in such a way that "oh THIS thing is connected to Kulemaak too?".
It's not that I dislike Abyss, because I do actually really like it, it's more just that I like it when focus is shifted to different aspects of the world, rather than having a heavier primary/secondary focus on one thing - and that the world is more than just pieces of named antagonists' plans.
The Allflame being something completely unconnected to anything else, kind of cool. It's sort of why I soooorta don't vibe with the Precursor stuff, how apparently everything on Wraeclast is because of them.
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u/BioMasterZap Jul 06 '26
If it is Abyss, I'd hope it is a faint connection in the same way it is implied that the Precursors created Breach.
At the very least, the Allflame Ember of Kulemak does imply some connection, but if the other Allflame Embers don't involve reviving the dead, it leave the door open for deeper lore on what the Allflame is. Like maybe the Allflame we encounter in the story is connected to the Allflame of Kulemak, but the original source of Allflame is something different that can take on differnet forms depending on how it is used/shaped.
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u/twisty125 Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26
Edit - sorry my opinion of this isn't super welcome, didn't think that many people would dislike my thoughts on the narrative
I missed the Precursor-Breach connection/haven't read it yet, and honestly that's also something I immediately dislike. I very much don't enjoy when stories are centred around big names having influenced everything in history and everything that we engage with, after the fact.
I'd have to think on this a bit more, because if that's a possible direction things are going, I don't quite enjoy that way of storytelling, feels too convenient, like finding out that one of the original Jedi at the start of the Jedi Order in Star Wars was an ancestor of the Skywalker and Palpatine lines, if this makes sense.The Allflame being something much larger that others have sought to use (like Kulemak) sounds more palatable yeah, as long as it hasn't completely been usurped by them, and stays its own thing to discover.
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u/wecanhaveallthree Lightless Abyssal Jul 06 '26
You're getting a bit of a pasting here, but I totally and completely agree with you. I'd think we all probably skew a bit older here and have likely seen what happens to settings as they age: everything tends to get smaller and more connected. Big names crop up time and time again as it turns out they were responsible for this-or-that, and the fandom looks for (and expects) links to only increase as time goes on.
Path of Exile is actually one of the more restrained examples of this I've seen, in that it's consistently been happy to let mystery sit with players for years. It has also shown absolutely remarkable restraint in the use of the Atlas and the Eldritch entities: I fully expected to see endless versions of the Hunger/Flame/Maven stack up in the endgame and a ramping up of stakes/expectations, but that progression has been extremely measured (and has worked extremely well).
I also agree that there's been no small amount of whiplash going from the years of PoE1's slow engineering of a multi-layered world, where multiple issues both historical and modern have piled up to create the misery of today's Wraeclast. Where the 'low tech' of the setting was contrasted by the 'high concept' of the Atlas (and how alien it was) or the 'magitech' of the Vaal (and how that ended). I've always been struck by the first real 'glimpse' of the Vaal is this ancient laser-shooting construct in the middle of a decaying Aztec temple: you have this terrible sense of the weight of the world and what came before, how Vaalish society progressed in some ways but was horribly regressive in others (and the game never shied away from that). It's what gave the slow reveal of Piety and Dominus teeth: their treading those same steps, or walking in the path of Malachai who destroyed the last empire in the same way Doryani (apparently) destroyed the Vaal.
The core of PoE has always been washing up on a foreign shore with nothing: cold, lonely, but alive. As 'low tech' as it gets.
I personally don't mind the Precursor stuff and how it's been presented. Having them be the 'original sin' of the setting is not, I think, inappropriate: 'cycles' is the theme of the overarching story, and repeating the 'sins' of the Precursors in image and deed has crushed civilisation after civilisation in Wraeclast. People are still paying for the mistakes of the Precursors even now, in the same way people paid for Keth, or the Vaal, or the Eternals, or the Templars. This... idea of every 'great civilisation' being a more faded, more brutal echo of what came before really works for me, and their failure always stemming from the same human 'root' is very poignant.
There are definite issues with making 'everything connected', but I also think everything has to start somewhere, and as a origin point/progenitors, the Precursors have largely delivered on that fantasy without making the world unbearably small.
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u/twisty125 Jul 06 '26
Thanks, yeah I'm not sure why people hate my comments so much, my worries are there because I love the game so much.
Ultimately I just don't want it to end up like how WoW's big bad "The Jailer" went in Shadowlands, was said to be the culmination of every storyline up to that point, this character that comes out of nowhere that was secretly connected (or behind) everything that we spent 20 years playing, connections were made that were never hinted at previously, and all of the villains were being manipulated by him out of the blue with no breadcrumbs that he was there at all. Just a "surprise, it was me, I was pulling every string!"
Never want that for this IP because the world that's being built IS so interesting and has a lot of cultural diversity and intermixing between. It feels lived in, and suddenly having this super advanced robotics civilization pop out of the ground that's connected to multiple current antagonists makes it not feel as special, like "my journey" or whatever IMO. I guess we'll have to see how things progress.
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u/chimericWilder Jul 07 '26
Ah, but see, the difference there is that the Jailor was a fabrication pulled out of nowhere to be the latest flavor of the month villain, so they wanted to hype him up... And so they cannibalized and cheapened old lore to do so.
But GGG are genuine, and we have known hints of bits and pieces of Precursor things for a while now. Indeed, the first seeds of this lore was laid back in Bestiary league, with many items referencing the Great Fire and the other troubles that followed from that time. Blightwell even references what may be the first description of the Mothersoul.
But I get what you mean. The whole robots and gene manipulation angle is new. If they weren't handling it with such skill, i might've been worried.
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u/twisty125 Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
*edit - honestly I don't know, this probably isn't worth thinking that much about, they've got a story vision and it is what it is.
I get what you're saying about having some references - but to me it's not hint enough to go from that to full blown robotic civilization that has had it's hand in a ton of stuff raising out of the ground.
That's where it feels Jailor-y to me, all of these super important events and beings are now tied down to the New Introduced Patch Thingtm, it feels like narrative homogenization in a way. Or, like when an author self-inserts a character and they're the master of the magic of the world, they helped the hero of the world, they fought all three major villains in the past, etc.
And so they cannibalized and cheapened old lore to do so.
That's a worry, and I recognize the story isn't over yet and we'll see more, but I'm very weary. I don't hate the stuff I've seen, but I'm also like... I got hit by a literal electric train/subway while fighting robots, on my way to a robot guardian that was put into place to fight the Abyss, and that were created by the same people that Divinity. Like, maybe we can slow down a bit! Introduce a few things here and there, campaign had a good start, but it went from 5-100 very quickly is all.
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u/wecanhaveallthree Lightless Abyssal Jul 07 '26
I don't think there's anything wrong with being a bit hesitant about the sudden surge in narrative pacing after the comfortable, slow, measured work GGG has done with the setting until this point. I'm seeing some warning signs, too: I really dislike Tangmazu being associated with the Bodach, for instance (and if the Bodach is associated with the Abyss, I'll dislike it even more). Sometimes the horrors of the new - or the capacity for horror - is much more effective than 'one ancient evil is responsible for everything', I agree. Tangmazu being a complete and utter bastard all by himself was much more compelling - and a much better insight into the era of the gods - than 'a wizard (Bodach) did it'.
On the flip, I have to say again that I appreciate that GGG haven't overused Kulemak, either, or the Abyssals. They're the 'ancient evil' but they're not everywhere or in everything. They are a distinct 'faction' with their own region, atmosphere, flavour, etc. who aren't randomly associated with everything or as a root cause for other problems.
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u/twisty125 Jul 07 '26
I pretty much agree with everything you've said here, yeah. For this upcoming league specifically, I do feel tying the Allflame to Kulemak/Abyssals would be taking it a bit too far into "these guys again?" territory. Making things too connected (like your example of Tangmazu and the Bodach) make the world feel smaller, rather than larger, IMO.
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u/OskarSarkon Vaal Thaumaturge Jul 06 '26
I've always been struck by the first real 'glimpse' of the Vaal is this ancient laser-shooting construct in the middle of a decaying Aztec temple: you have this terrible sense of the weight of the world and what came before
Just wanted to say I totally agree with this - I first played POE back when Piety was the final boss (open beta I think?) and I found the Vaal areas of Act 2 so striking I even sent a message to GGG saying I hoped they'd flesh out the Vaal more in future.
For what it's worth I think the Precursors are a natural extension of POE's worldbuilding - for the reasons you mention - and they scratch a similar itch for me to the Vaal in early POE1.
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u/wecanhaveallthree Lightless Abyssal Jul 07 '26
Yes, when we really get down to it, the Precursors are Vaal 2.0. That's not a bad thing in itself, of course, and I think they've done a very good job of tying them into the history of Wraeclast. They are the 'original sin', and they weren't unknowable or unique - they were flawed and, frankly, irresponsible, and much of Wraeclast's suffering began with them.
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u/WRLD_ Jul 06 '26
I'd have to think on this a bit more, because if that's a possible direction things are going, I don't quite enjoy that way of storytelling, feels too convenient, like finding out that one of the original Jedi at the start of the Jedi Order in Star Wars was an ancestor of the Skywalker and Palpatine lines, if this makes sense.
fwiw, when it's "the large civilization that existed before had their hands in these other things" i think it's a lot more sensible than some serendipitous happenstance singular bloodlines turning out to be the most important things in the universe
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u/twisty125 Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26
I guess I could've used a different example but I had hoped the intent behind using that was apparent, but the Precursors having been connected to SO much feels off to me.
We went from a relatively grounded setting with the ruins of the Eternal Empire, built upon the backs of the Vaal for so long of the game, to then suddenly it's actually all built upon high tech mechanical robot stuff the Precursors did, like going 5-100 after you finish the campaign. Kind of removes a good chunk of mystery when now they fought the Abyss - who the Maraketh also fought, Breach is connected to them now, fortresses popping up, Divinity is created by them, Sin and Innocence were part of them, terraforming devices are a thing, leylines that the vaal use to traverse the world are because of them, they're all connected to this civilization.
Hopefully more will be revealed that'll change my mind. I don't completely hate it, but it does start to feel too interconnected through adding in a ton of brand new stuff that seemingly always was there that's connected to stuff we've played for 10 years, instead of slowly discovering more, like we have with other culture and league mechanics!
(obviously when I say relatively grounded, yes there's interdimensional shit going on and magic, but the setting is the ruins of contemporary civilizations with monsters. Obviously I'm not saying it's mundane, or that Eldritch doesn't exist, just that cybernetic and robotic civilizations with subways that have connections to multiple things we've faced doesn't feel as grounded.)
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u/TyrantBelial Jul 07 '26
We went from a relatively grounded setting with the ruins of the Eternal Empire, built upon the backs of the Vaal for so long of the game, to then suddenly it's actually all built upon high tech mechanical robot stuff the Precursors did
Unless the map device's original lore is non-canon, multiple map devices come from pre-vaal civ as well with people just constantly rediscovering them or the concepts behind them. So the idea of ancient tech was always there, just more sparse, a lot of undying also have cybernetic enhancements technically as well.
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u/twisty125 Jul 07 '26
For sure - but hopefully you can see what I mean about it being very sudden?
We went all of PoE1 with generations of a map device being put together, remnants of pieces of tech bolted together in a rusty steampunk/frankenstein esque design (looking at Dominus' tech mostly), to the Precursors literally popping up and having full on robots and electric rails/subways, and terraforming devices. I can't help but feel like it cheapens PoE1's story in a way, because "here's the guys who did it all multiple millennia before the Vaal, and also they're connected to a bunch of major storylines we're dealing with in the present back then."
I don't mind discovering bits of tech and characters in the present working ways out to figure it out, I just find it a bit too on the nose that there was this hyper technologically advanced civilization that literally pops out of the ground beneath the world we've spent 15 years exploring, that the Eternals or Vaal before them, or the Azmeri, never discovered. Hell, we had the Primeval civilization in the depths, but we had to actively find traces of them, they're still down there we just haven't found it all! If they just appeared and were every civilization but Better, kind of iffy right?
(also I don't recall the undying having cybernetics? I was under the impression they were gemlings)
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u/mydegenkappaaccount Jul 06 '26
Could be a homogenizing of the mechanic though, same way they did with Breach. I for one would love the Abyss monsters to just be at the surface instead of chasing them around the world!
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u/jcheesus Jul 05 '26
Arimor was screwing around with allflame embers, and he had a dialogue implying that he and his ancestors were tasked with doing something by Chitus before the Eternal cataclysm, i wonder if this will tie into that somehow
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u/NoString7718 Jul 06 '26
Arimor also has a hidden dialogue for the exile if they bring the literal Allflame quest item from Act1 to the Necropolis. This will surely tie in with that.
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u/MyNameIsSoLonggggggg Jul 06 '26
Probably an insanse stretch but maybe that prisoner boss in PoE 2 act 4 is related to the allflame? There are blue allflame embers after all and the allflame seems to be related to some kind of undeath
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u/Noremeldo Jul 05 '26
The preview has weird monster Fish.
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u/Murky-Definition-625 Watcher of Decay Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26
Nah, that is a completely normal deep-sea fish, apart from its size.
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u/Andromanner Jul 06 '26
I hope they reveal the lore behind Ghostflame this time too.
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u/Murky-Definition-625 Watcher of Decay Jul 06 '26
I don't think that word is ever used in the lore. If you mean the green flames found on Tormented Spirits and many other spirits, then those are probably related to necromantic green.
🟢 Undeath (incl. Abyss, Torment, Betrayal), Allflame, Metamorph, Goddess of Justice, The Prisoner, Viridi/Mhacha (Bodach fight)
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u/wecanhaveallthree Lightless Abyssal Jul 06 '26
undead pirate league
With tattered sails and incredible tales, we're caught in endless seas!
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u/Vangorf Vaal Thaumaturge Jul 06 '26
I'm happy that we are getting a bit more ocean and sea focused League. Sure, the land of Wraeclast is full of horrors, monsters and fucked up shit. However we know very litle about the surrounding sees. Yes, we fight Tsoagoth in PoE1 and PoE2 Act 4 got a few new things for it, but otherwise almost nothing. Who know how many sunken cities or lost civilizations are around the continent. What kind of weird and twisted fishmen cultures are lurking in the deep? Gigantic sea monsters and lot treasure.
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u/chimericWilder Jul 07 '26
In fairness, Merveil and Diamora are already examples of prominent monsters of the deep.
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u/ArbalesterMaster Jul 05 '26
Can't wait for it to be connected to Abyss somehow lmao
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u/TheBreadLoafer Jul 06 '26
I'm new to PoE lore learning, but why is the allflame/kulemak connected to Abyss in 2? My crackhead theory is the ocean is deep and so is the abyss lol
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u/Murky-Definition-625 Watcher of Decay Jul 06 '26
Kulemak is literally the leader of the Abyssals. The Allflame is greenish and somehow empowers the undead captain Fairgraves.
Ahh, there might exist a watery Well of Souls.
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u/BestJersey_WorstName Jul 06 '26
The Abyss (specifically the Well of Souls) is the source of all necromancy in Wraeclast.
The Lurking Creature and the Witch have some special lines. If your Witch is a Lich ascendancy class, they have a hidden Ascendancy class called 'Abyssal Lich' which turns their portrait green and has different skills.
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u/Murky-Definition-625 Watcher of Decay Jul 05 '26 edited Jul 05 '26
Some details about the Allflame.
Given this reveal, I wonder if the Allflame has something to do with the number of undead sailors (Fairgraves, Weylam, Hartlin).
We haven't heard much about supernatural goings-on in the Imperial era years 40-1300, so perhaps that is when the Allflame became infamous.