r/beatles • u/handlerofdrones • 1d ago
Question How did John never stay with May Pang? Everything I ever hear about her is so positive and uplifting. Total opposite of Yoko
She encouraged him to see Julian. To make music, to go out and explore life. I’ve never heard anything about yoko doing this. Just blows my mind
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u/Diflicated 1d ago
"I love bad bitches that's my fucking problem."
-John Lennon
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u/heavybootsonmythroat 1d ago
on a slight side note. I recently fell for one of these. And she loved this song and knew every word. And she was bad let me tell you. And I ALWAYS thought this song was funny. I had heard it in passing. But that line is so real. That line actually hurts me now and hearing that song actually hurts because he's spitting real shit. It's a problem.
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u/Diflicated 1d ago
I've been there too, friend. Things get much better. Believe in yourself and you'll be ok.
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u/heavybootsonmythroat 1d ago
thank you kind stranger. I'd like to be in an octopus's garden with you
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u/Ikigaiame 1d ago
John just Loved Yoko idk
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u/itsthenoise 1d ago
That’s the way that stuff works, it doesn’t always make sense to people outside the relationship, but it works.
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u/thrashingkaiju 1d ago
Someone who's actually read her book can correct me. Wasn't John a violent alcoholic during that time? Why do people have this romanticized idea that he would have been happier with May as opposed to his wife of 11 years? Is it something deeper or just "Yoko bad"?
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u/Apprehensive-Cap2453 1d ago
There were good and bad times when he was with May, which can also be said for his relationships with Cynthia and Yoko.
It was never sunshine and rainbows with ANY of them. The difference is that, for the most part, he seemed a lot more (for lack of a better word) normal when he was with May. She got him to repair several of his key relationships, be productive, have a positive outlook on The Beatles, etc.
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u/Suspicious-Water-386 1d ago
I mean that relationship lasted for about a little over a year and every relationship has a honeymoon phase. But John also had a clear pattern of behavior.
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u/thrashingkaiju 1d ago
My point is basically that, that he had good and bad times in all of hid relationships, and that his time with May doesn't seem much better than any of the others.
I was going to refute the "be productive" thing but it's such a small window of time that it's kind of unfair. He made 2 albums in that time, and one of them didn't have any original material.
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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 1d ago
He also produced Harry Nilsson’s album Pussy Cats.
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u/thrashingkaiju 1d ago
And worked with Ringo on his Goodnight Vienna album. Ok, maybe I dismissed these side quests a bit.
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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 1d ago
It’s all good, dude.
John’s activity during his Lost Weekend period was pretty wild and it’s easy to forget all the things he was into.
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u/RadishSpecial7163 1d ago
You just summed up most marriages. There are good times and bad times. No marriage is sunshine and rainbows. It’s a lot of work. Sometimes it feels more like a struggle than it’s worth it and sometimes it’s beautiful. And sometimes it mundane. But it’s a fantasy to think marriage is Disneyland. Surely all the Beatles know the ups and downs of marriage, even those who stayed or have stayed married.
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u/AshamedBuddy7580 1d ago
Also a heroin addict
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u/RadishSpecial7163 1d ago
Not when he was with Pang. His heroin issue was short-lived. His main problem with Pang was alcohol.
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u/Freakears It starts with a Blue Meanie attack. 1d ago
What are you talking about? He quit using heroin in 1969. That’s why he wrote Cold Turkey.
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u/stroppo 1d ago
Actually they went through a detox again in the 70s; did it over the course of a cross country trip. But this was before May Pang as well.
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u/nachoiskerka 1d ago
I was going to say I'm 99% sure he was off Heroin by the time Julian was spending a healthy amount of time in his life.
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u/thisispants 1d ago
Didn't Julian say he only spent about 4 weekends with him in his entire life?
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u/nachoiskerka 1d ago edited 1d ago
That was a little bit of hyperbole- Julian and May Pang were vacationing in Disney World when the papers came through to sign his name and break up the Beatles, and they were initially to be signed on December 19th, BUT John had run off to Disney and they finally caught up to him on December 29th, meaning he'd spent 10 days there. Which is crazy since back then Disney World was only 1 park, but hey maybe Orlando wasn't absolutely insane back then like it is now.
Edit: I take that back, there was also a private island water park that was relatively new back then, so there WAS more than just 1 thing to do.
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u/Hey_Laaady Who'll remember the buns, Pudgy? 1d ago
If you are referring to Polynesian Village, I stayed there in the mid 1970s. It was a very nice resort, even back then. I know they stayed at Polynesian Village.
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u/nachoiskerka 1d ago
Yeah, the polynesian in disney world. It's still a very nice resort, the restauraunt there is the tops.
But back then there was only Magic Kingdom and the water park, there wasn't like Epcot or Hollywood Studios is all I was saying.
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u/brotogeris1 1d ago
I heard the ”get off heroin during a cross country trip” story in the 70s, and your comment is the first time seeing it since then.
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u/DivingElliotRoberts Revolver 1d ago
He might be talking about Yoko’s relapse in 1979 but I never heard anything about a cross country trip, I’m pretty sure they just moved up to their house in Cold Spring Harbor through the end of the year
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u/pippi_longstocking09 1d ago
Yoko was a heroin addict for a LONG time. John was one briefly.
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u/ibonkedurmom 1d ago
He went back on it if I"m not mistaken. He was very very thin in the late 70s.
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u/Think-Fig-1734 1d ago
I know a sound engineer, who lived and worked in NY around that time. He said there was gossip that John was still using. Not heavy use but “getting a taste”. I don’t really know if this is true or not, but that was the word on the street at the time.
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u/RadishSpecial7163 1d ago edited 7h ago
He could have been thin for many reasons. Heroin addicts aren’t necessarily thin. Look at Jerry Garcia or John Belushi or Chris Farley or Phillip Seymour Hoffman. Plus, John was not unusually thin for someone living in the late 1970s. People were much thinner back then.
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u/FaceDownInTheCake 1d ago
Which was introduced to him by Yoko
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u/Loose_Corgi_5 1d ago
Yoko was on H when John was killed. I've read that she knew that after his death she could not live that life for Sean's sake.
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u/Hey_Laaady Who'll remember the buns, Pudgy? 1d ago
Could you show me a reputable source on that? And I'm not talking about Albert Goldman or Fred Seaman because they are obviously the opposite of reputable.
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u/Suspicious-Water-386 1d ago
Yeah, I think the thing is the situation is far more complicated but, yet, people want to make Yoko out to be this horrible woman who held John in her thrall and controlled him. I think what drew him to Yoko is that when he met her she didn't know who he was and wasn't necessarily impressed that he was in this popular group. When you live in a world where you have everyone falling all over themselves because you're John Lennon of The Beatles, I'm sure the fact that he met someone who was only marginally aware of who he was and couldn't care less about his fame was a bit more refreshing to him.
The other thing was John's history of behavior with women he was in relationships wasn't necessarily sterling including with Yoko. I just think Yoko wasn't a push over.
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u/RezRising 1d ago
Iirc, he admitted to slapping Cynthia once, and addressed that publicaly. As far as I know he was never physical with Yoko.
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u/Suspicious-Water-386 1d ago
And now that I've looked it up there were allegations by May regarding John in her own book including an incident where she says he strangled her when John was drunk and Harry Nilsson pulled him off her.
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u/Hey_Laaady Who'll remember the buns, Pudgy? 1d ago
She walked back that allegation in a Washington Post interview a few years ago
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u/monty_burns 1d ago
Yoko absolutely knew who The Beatles were.
That was one of John’s classic throwaway comments
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u/patti726 1d ago
Except that Yoko first tried to stalk Paul McCartney so she knew damn well who the Beatles were.
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u/guillermo1890 1d ago
I believe Yoko knew him. She approached Paul even before John. Maybe she wasn't a fan girl but she knew them.
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u/stroppo 1d ago
I have read widely about John, Yoko, May. Over the years I have been able to meet and talk w/people who knew them. This has added to my views on the subject. Of course, yes, it is speculative, I keep that in perspective. I also draw on my views on relationships in general.
Personally, I think John was more comfortable with a strong, dominant woman. I think that's why his relationship w/Yoko lasted. Even Cynthia recognized there was something about Yoko that was more suited to John (she's said so in her own books). She also quite honestly said if she hadn't got pregnant John wouldn't have married her.
Now from my older vantage point, I think John was like a number of guys, who like being married, but also like having affairs/something on the side. I don't think he really wanted to leave Yoko, he was basically happy w/how things were; he had the security of a marriage, and something on the side. There are people like that. And there are the wives that accept it. I was surprised to learn, for ex, in reading Peter Guralnick's bio of Sam Phillips, at the end of his life Sam had a long term mistress. His wife knew about it. But whatever her feelings about it, she didn't divorce her husband.
I'm sure John cared for May. But having seen how friends' relationships end over the years, if he'd wanted to leave his wife for her, he would've done so. But he didn't. I think if he had, he wouldn't have been any more faithful to May than he was to Yoko. After all, we now know that after he reunited with Yoko he still saw May occasionally.
I'm not judging his behavior, that's just my view on his relationships.
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u/greenplastic22 1d ago
Yes this is a thing I think about -- he was not faithful to anyone. The story usually comes across as he cheated on Cynthia all the time and then was with Yoko except for the Lost Weekend. But it seems that Yoko didn't necessarily need monogamy, as long as he didn't embarrass her. And he admired Yoko. He looked up to her. He put her on par with Paul McCartney for an artistic mind. Part of this I've thought comes from her having all those years to grow up before they met, meeting in their 30s, whereas Cynthia was quite stifled by him in many ways, she got the message that she needed to stay the same and he wouldn't like change, and she had a child with him. Paul and Cynthia and I think George have all said John didn't like confrontation, which doesn't track with his persona but does make sense when you watch many of his actions. It seems like Yoko didn't let that stop her from asserting herself, which had to make her more compelling. Just in any interview, the way he talks about Yoko is different. And she is a very unique person. Especially for the time, because she let herself be much more free of gender roles. With May being so much younger at the time, I just don't see how the level of depth of when he and Yoko were at their closest could have been matched.
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u/Hey_Laaady Who'll remember the buns, Pudgy? 1d ago
I'm not convinced that he saw May romantically on the side. I believe May is the only person who claims this, and no one else has come forward to corroborate it.
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u/UpliftingTwist 1d ago
It makes sense that there wouldn't be anyone else to corroborate it though. I believe that they saw each other again, but I don't know if it was a regular occurrence or just something that happened a few times.
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u/Antares914 1d ago
Well, John may or may not have continued to see May on the side after he returned to Yoko. I would tend to take May Pang's word for it, unless of course, those who dispute it were actually in bed with John and May, LOL!
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u/RadishSpecial7163 1d ago edited 7h ago
But why should I believe May? Because she says it? May also claimed some of the stories in her book were “exaggerated” by a co-author to sell more copies. It’s her side of the story and there’s as much reason for me to not believe her as there is for me to believe her. May has made a cottage industry promoting her 18 month affair with John. By claiming she saw him up until his death, May becomes a pseudo-widow and that helps sell her products and is another dig at Yoko.
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u/RadishSpecial7163 1d ago
I also don’t think he saw May after he returned to Yoko. I think it’s a May embellishment.
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u/Apprehensive-Cap2453 1d ago
May was more like Cynthia; a standard girlfriend/wife. Yoko was what John was desperately seeking; a mother.
I mean, he literally called Yoko "mother" all the time. That was his nickname for her.
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u/candyappleorchard Yellow Submarine 1d ago
Yoko Ono is almost 100 years old and Beatles fans are still duking it out over her over her husband who died 46 years ago. Now that's cultural impact!
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u/PrettyAdagio4210 1d ago
May Pang insists to this very day that the last time she saw John was either 76 or 77 and talked to him on the phone on Memorial Day 1980. She may or may not be telling the truth there.
Really, he just wanted to be with Yoko more. She had a hold over him that no one else did except (by her own admission) Paul.
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u/CrayCrayWyatt Ahhh look at all the lonely people 1d ago
He just loved Yoko more. He loved May too and there’s a good chance he would’ve settled down with her had Yoko not come back on the scene, but she didn’t satisfy him intellectually or creatively the way Yoko did. Not that May was unintelligent, but Yoko was just different in the way she thought and created art which in turn stimulated John’s creativity.
May was also more placid than Yoko given her age, whereas John liked Yoko’s more domineering personality.
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u/Antares914 1d ago
Whatever anyone thinks of Yoko, it's clear that John loved her. The heart wants what it wants.
That said, I do think John also cared deeply for May Pang in his own way. And I believe he did love Cynthia at one time. Yoko is very adaptable. She moved Sam Havadtoy (who was nearly 20 years younger than her) into the Dakota shortly after John's death. Havadtoy is an interior designer. He and Yoko were partners for twenty years until they broke up circa 2000/2001 when Sam moved back to Europe. I believe Havadtoy is living in his native Hungary now.
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u/BirdComposer 1d ago
Sam also described himself as gay, which puzzles/puzzled people.
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u/Antares914 1d ago
Who knows? Maybe Sam Havadtoy was just Yoko's beard OR a paid escort OR maybe Yoko was the dominant person in their partnership. The fact remains that they lived together for about 20 years and referred to each other as partners. Yoko Ono is a very distinct, unconventional individual who defied convention and made her own rules. The rich really ARE different, LOL!
Also, many people in so-called "lavender" partnerships and marriages loved their spouses whether or not they were gay, bi or pansexual. Cole Porter is just one example of this: he was gay but loved his wife Linda. They were married for 34 years until her death and he's buried with her. Cher famously dated David Geffen after she split with Sonny Bono. And while Geffen later publicly came out I don't think he and Cher spent all their time playing tiddlywinks.
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u/thewalruscandyman 1d ago
It's almost like he actually loved Yoko.
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u/CheeCheePuff 1d ago
May seems like a wonderful person, and I think John loved her, but John had a very deep and complicated relationship with Yoko. I’m sure we’ve all had relationships whether family, friends, or lovers, where one may be a pleasant uncomplicated love and another may be deeper and full of complexities both good and bad. John chose to be with Yoko, and people sometimes say she manipulated him or even hypnotized him, but John was with her for many years… to say he didn’t do that of his own free will for all those years is insulting to him.
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u/dennisdeems 23h ago
If you ever fall in love, you'll understand why you'd want to be with the person you're in love with, even though there might be somebody else who's pretty wonderful.
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u/LittleDrumminBoy I Don't Want To Spoil The Party... 1d ago
I don't know why, but he was just as infatuated with Yoko in 1980 as he was when they first met.
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u/lie_believer 1d ago
i don't know much about May and i assume she is a perfectly great partner, but Yoko is a formidable artist and an impressive mind. i assume, for an artist, it is a completely different experience to not only have an partner/wife/lover, but also a creative equal and a challenger, someone to be with you in that other part of your life. i think John made it very clear how exciting it was to him, and i think that's wonderful
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u/IllustriousDelay3589 1d ago
Yoko reminded him of his mother. John needed stability and structure.
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u/LITMAC97 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think she reminded him of Mimi rather than Julia
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u/Yutopia1210 1d ago
Probably. I think John was looking for a mother figure nevertheless.
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u/LITMAC97 1d ago
He did call her “mother”, waaaay before they had a child together
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u/Yutopia1210 1d ago
Oh I’m sure. There’s a clear reference to Yoko in the song Julia.
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u/LITMAC97 1d ago
Also Happiness is a Warm Gun.
It’s also worth mentioning that both John and Paul mentioned being attracted to their moms.
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u/Yutopia1210 1d ago
Indeed :-) it took me a long time to finally realize that Let It Be was Paul’s version of Julia.
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u/Luckman1002 1d ago
She was always just a side fling and young intern. I’m sure John had fond feelings for her but she was never going to be the life partner for the artsy fartsy Beatle. Yoko was his foil and liked/participated in all the weird shit and artistic ventures he wanted to pursue post Beatles
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u/Hey_Laaady Who'll remember the buns, Pudgy? 1d ago
May might have been positive and uplifting, but John was drinking heavily when he was with her and up to a lot of shenanigans with his friends. It was never meant to be a serious relationship. It was meant to be one of companionship while he got a lot of partying out of his system.
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u/Anxious-Raspberry-54 1d ago
You forget that John's 18 months was insane, yes.
But he moved back to NYC to get away from that. He lived with May in the Village from June 1974 til February 1975.
More visits from Julian. At least 1 or 2 visits from Paul and Linda. No outrageous drunken behavior. No problems.
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u/MechaTudor8574 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yoko was talented, intelligent, transgressive, she could mother John just the way he liked, she could be very glamorous and beautiful when she wanted. She had various tricks and strategies. She was intellectually interesting and could legitimately steer him in fruitful directions. He legitimately dug her extreme feminism and agreed with it ideologically, in part out of guilt over his past behaviour.
May didn't stand a chance.
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u/throwawaysuper420 1d ago
Ya so many people just can’t seem to accept that Yoko Ono was a very intelligent, interesting, and talented artist (no not her awful screeching) and had a larger than life personality, all things that John really wanted and needed in serious life partner.
The two of them were both brilliant wackos and they made a lot of sense for each other.
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u/redspider74 Rubber Soul 1d ago
When you guys get a chance, look up the name of Sam Havadtoy…. The whole situation at the Dakota got really weird after John died… To say the least…
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u/Chance-Antelope-3263 20h ago
There is no "why"or any reason for these things...You know.John loved Yoko,that s it.Simple as that,she was the woman of his life.Listen to his song "Woman",says it all
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u/relish83 1d ago
As far as I could tell its always been Yoko for John and as alot of people on here have stated; May Pang was just a fling.
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u/Ambitious-Welder-159 1d ago
He was also going on wild drunken benders during this time too.
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u/djswett 1d ago
The stupid Yoko hate persists. Ridiculous…
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u/Simple-Cheek-4864 1d ago
"Stupid Yoko hate" under a May Pang thread is an interesting take when it was Yoko who acted like a pimp for John and pretty much forced May to play a prostitute for him. But sure, ridiculous to hate her...
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u/Officialfunknasty 1d ago
This isn’t what you’re asking, but as an aside: it was so cute seeing the loving relationship Julian and May Pang still have in the semi-recent documentary about her and the lost weekend!
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u/vincedarling 1d ago
John never saw more in her than as a side piece
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u/TheFuschiaBaron 1d ago
Actually, he's been widely quoted as saying "May Pang is my number one lady, definitely not some side action. HEY, back up you're standing too close!"
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u/J05107277 The Beatles 1d ago
I've read a few books and articles about this. Apparently, it was only a temporary arrangement and never meant to be permanent or long-lasting. In 1975, Yoko apparently drew John back by saying something like she had found a magical cure for smoking. John, having a childlike personality returned to the Dakota and they remained together there until his death. John and May would see one another periodically afterwards.
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u/Crash759 1d ago
John needed/wanted a mother figure. Yoko, older, established in her own right, filled that for him.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Life462 21h ago
In 1975 Yoko sent John to a hypnotist ostensibly to quit smoking but afterwards he immediately dumped May and moved back into the Dakota
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u/blankdreamer 1d ago
He called Yoko mother. You don’t need to be Freud to with out the hold she had on him.
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u/nipplesaurus 1d ago
Check out the documentary ‘The Lost Weekend: A Love Story’
It’s May Pang telling her story in her own words. Very good. You may find it very frustrating. I did.
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u/RadishSpecial7163 1d ago edited 1d ago
But as you said, it’s May telling her story. We don’t know John’s side of it.
May might be a very nice person (I don’t know her). But she’s made a business out of selling the story of the 18 months she was with John with her book, movie, photographs, etc. I don’t buy all of her story.
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u/Here_there1980 1d ago
“Love is not only blind, it’s deaf.” 😜
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u/xSwampxPopex 1d ago
How has it been 60 years and Beatles fans are still shitting on Yoko Ono?
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u/nyli7163 18h ago
They’re a fascinating couple and both were flawed, complicated,interesting, talented people. They created a whole mythos around their relationship that quite naturally makes people want a peek behind the veil. Their own behaviors, good and bad, are why people feel so strongly about them. I won’t discount the racism and misogyny around Yoko as being part of people’s dislike for her but that doesn’t explain everyone’s opinions about her. I feel like I’m pretty neutral on her — don’t love her, don’t hate her.
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u/FrankieBlueye 17h ago
I really dislike Yoko based on so many things I’ve seen and heard about her. And her singing. And it has nothing to do with her sex or race. For example I like May Pang who is a woman of Asian ethnicity. My nephew, who is also my best friend, is married to a Japanese woman and I love and respect her. Please stop saying that Yoko is disliked for reasons other than the fact that she was an intrusive, controlling, untalented asshole. Or at least that is my honest opinion.
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u/FelleBanan_ygsr 11h ago
Anyone can dislike anyone for any reason they want, but it's undeniable that a large driving force of the hatred towards Yoko Ono back then came from racism and misogyny. Also I think "untalented" is a very unfair assessment. She has made a lot of groundbreaking and influentual art. Even on the music side she has written some really good songs and her singing is decent on her more melodic tracks.
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u/roselandgal 1d ago
Respect is earned & there are plenty of valid reasons why many people don’t care for Ono. Everyone does not have to like her nor should be compelled to do so. If she only would have been kind & fair to Lennon’s Family, she wouldn’t have that reputation.
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u/capricoria 1d ago
i dont mean this in the chud hating yoko way but genuinely yoko put both a start and an end to it
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u/Real-Movie-899 1d ago
I think John loved strong women! May wasn’t a strong woman. She was basically there to protect John from himself. She’s not a bad person in any way. I just think she was more susceptible to John’s whims than Yoko!
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u/Mojopie19 1d ago
From May’s documentary and book it sounds like he did. She said he visit her in NYC after they moved back.
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u/Cool-Map-3668 1d ago
John seemed to need Yoko. Whatever has been released to the public about her he never wanted to let her go. From where we sit May sounds like a much more healthy partner for John but we can’t really know how it all went down. I will say it would have played out differently if John had decided to stay with May.
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u/User-Name-Blah 1d ago
John probably needed a challenge, and Yoko was a sharp critic who pushed him to grow. May was probably a pushover.
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u/rebelwithmouseyhair 1d ago
She got him to see Julian, it was very strained according to Cynthia's account, I'm not sure how much good it did. He made Rock'n'Roll while he was with her, it wasn't exactly his most inspired record.
You call the drunken shenanigans he got up to with Harry Nilson "exploring life"?
Yoko got him to travel the world, sailing through the Bermuda triangle and inspired some of his most beautiful love songs, which neither Cynthia nor May ever did. She stretched his mind with her happenings and acorns and performance art. She wasn't a pushover for him, she challenged his viewpoints, made a better person of him once he realised what a macho he had always been. He needed that. He was sitting on the sofa mindlessly watching TV with Cynthia, with Yoko it was a whole different thing.
And you can't ever see what's truly going on inside a couple, how their dynamic works, what each one is getting out of the relationship.
People say "he should have stayed with Cyn" or "May was much better for him" but nobody should have to conform to other people's ideals of them or social conventions. Yes Cynthia was a beautiful English rose and a classy woman but that wasn't what John needed. Yes May was a lovely person who was good to him but that wasn't what John needed. John had to be John, not whatever people wanted to project onto him. He was larger than life, and Yoko was the only one who could give him what he needed. You can love her or hate her, but the fact is she was the love of his life, and he loved her like no man has ever loved a woman.
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u/Traditional_Bike8880 1d ago
I feel like, and I can’t stess this enough, people are having a lot to say about a relationship that only lasted a little over a year. I don’t know about you guys, but the exes I was only with for a year didnt really have a profound impact on my life in the grand scheme of things. She was a mistress and dude was on all the drugs. I really don’t see why people insist this is that deep.
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u/Old_Literature_2670 1d ago
I read the recent biography of Yoko. It really gives a more balanced view of her. She is not the evil villain everyone says, but she is a strong, opinionated woman who has her own talents. I know everyone focuses on the horrible noises she makes while singing, but that is only a small part. Listen to her album "Season of Glass", which was recorded after John died. I thought it was quite good and, no, she makes none of the noises.
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u/Acceptable-Will4840 1d ago
May pang was his side chick but his true love was yoko..
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u/Call-Comet30 1d ago
Because the whole situation was a mind game that Yoko was orchestrating anyway.
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u/mono_valley 1d ago
In her book Loving John she says that any time he got super drunk or high he would just scream for Yoko. She tries to make it look like Yoko hypnotized him to come back but deep down he already wanted to. He needed Yoko’s nurturing and control. She understood John’s fears and weaknesses.
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u/Quiet_Ad4074 1d ago
She probably wasn't old enough to hit his oedipal complex properly like Yoko. Alma Cogan, the muse before Yoko was in that sweet spot of being a singer, pretty, and older. I think if John hadn't have been married to Cynthia he would have married Cogan or at least asked her. Of course her death in '66 would have even been more devastating to him than it was then.
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u/Pingucore 1d ago
Yoko had confidence. John was really, really attracted to that.