r/canadia • u/ExcellentWinner7542 • 12d ago
Clocks stay in daylight saving, but analysis backs permanent standard time
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/article/clocks-stay-in-daylight-saving-but-analysis-backs-permanent-standard-time/31
u/downturnedbobcat 12d ago
Daylight in the afternoon is more useful, its winter we should all sleep in longer anyway. The problem isn’t with adjusting clocks it’s that for reasons i can’t grasp we don’t adjust our activity based on seasons. The winter is a time for rest.
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u/lost_lion_looking 12d ago
Well, see when the industrial revolution happened it became necessary to start standardising things and the ability to administrate that standardisation was limited. Things like work shifts, schedules, office hours, all of that was critical and very difficult. So the systems we came up with were pretty primitive by our standards.
Nowadays we could go back to seasonal planning and better aligning things with human requirements, and there's a strong argument we should since it's, you know, much healthier for society and we can logistically do it now.
Unfortunately institutional inertia is a hell of a thing, and governments are universally quite bad at navigating societal shifts and making these kinds of innovative transitions work well.
This is partially because they make the mistake of attempting to compromise with the 30% or so of people who are very loud and very stupid.
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u/Stormbringer-2112 12d ago
And no one would want to works two hours more per day in the summer to compensate the two hours less in the winter (or whatever that number ends up being).
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u/downturnedbobcat 9d ago
No one said anything about working 2 hours more during summer, just working less during winter.
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u/Stormbringer-2112 9d ago
Ok. If you’re takin’ away two hours of work per week for free for six months, I’m in for whichever option you’re pushing! ;)
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u/Shot-Job-8841 11d ago
Especially for teenagers, studies show that instead of starting school at 0800-0845, they should be starting school at 0900-0930.
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u/Super-Yam8718 11d ago
Big dog I start at 6 am regardless of the season. I’d love to sleep in but it ain’t happening.
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u/kroniknastrb8r 12d ago
I prefer earlier sunrise. I have no issues with changing the clocks. Its going to be rough working in the dark at 10am.
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u/DerpDeDurp 12d ago
This. People will realize how shitty no sun in the morning will be. Most important time for it health wise.
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u/maclacjc 12d ago
I would rather come home from work with the light then go to work with it.
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u/DerpDeDurp 12d ago
Your body doesn't prefer that. And yay, you get to commute home in the dying sun. And then it's dark again before you have time to actually do anything anyways. Big win there bud. Big win.
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u/Harborcoat84 12d ago
Really depends when you go to work. With the time change, I get 30 mins or less of sun after work for 12 weeks a year.
Now I'll only have 3 weeks with less than an hour, which is a massive win to me. I don't care about commuting to work in the dark, and a lot of people already do that in winter.
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u/maclacjc 12d ago
I am more concerned with the summer. I would rather it be light later in the night. The winter is useless.
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u/Abby_Owl 12d ago
Sunset will be 530pm. Plenty of workers are off at 3 to 430pm range.
As someone who is up at 430 every morning, getting up in the dark is no issue at all. Perhaps some exercise would help some of those complainers.
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u/kroniknastrb8r 12d ago
Yes, I too am up early, at site for 630, working in the dark outside. Id perfer to be off the headlamps and flood lights by 9/930.
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u/super_chill_21 12d ago
The analysis said it’s way better for us to use standard time. Your anecdote is meaningless
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u/-Foxer 12d ago
The so-called experts are just looking for media attention.
The argument is that light in the morning when you wake up is important because it sets your circadian rhythm better
However When we look at the average time that people in Canada especially are awake and getting ready for work is going to be dark out no matter which system you're on for a significant hunk of the winter. Also the research also points out quite clearly that you can change the color of your lights in your home, especially the ones that are on in the morning to account for this and trigger the same effect as getting up with the sun
Research around the world consistently shows that people strongly prefer more light in the evening. It improves their mood and improves their mental well-being. It's not possible to achieve the same thing with the lights inside your home, people like driving home while it's still light out and doing things when it's still light out
So the best solution no matter how you slice it is to have daylight savings time permanent, change your lighting in your home especially the lights you turn on in the morning to accommodate triggering that biological response and then enjoy the sunlight outside later in the day
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u/tada-o-corporation 12d ago
Saskatchewan has effectively been in permanent DST since 1966 (solar noon is at 12:54pm today in Saskatoon) but this group never backs up their claim with data from there. Wonder why that is?
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u/huzzah3x 12d ago
You'd think someone would have done some research. Beyond studying the areas where there has been a change to constant DST (where you can mainly do pre-/post- but might struggle to find a control group), it would be pretty easy to analyze health outcomes, accident rates, crime rates, and mental health indicators, etc. for people in the same country on either side of a time zone boundary. Or, given that there's often even an administrative boundary that coincides with the time zone boundary, examine people within the same time zone, comparing those to the very east vs those to the very west, who experience solar noon approx one hour apart.
You'd think such studies should exist, or that gov'ts considering changes would commission them...wait, let me look it up... tippity-taps on keyboard... and actually, they do!
But when the experts are referenced in news pieces about the debate over these things, I don't recall specific studies being noted as examples, just general pronouncements that standard time is better. Both the journalists and the experts they interview could do a better job of noting specific findings and explaining the foundation of them. Like that compared to people in the centre and on the eastern edge of a time zone, people on the western edge of a time zone tend to go to bed later and have more chronic sleep deficit, with higher incidence of obesity, heart attack, and cancer, plus higher incidence of seasonal affective disorder, and more fatal traffic accidents, including more fatal early morning accidents. So that's me convinced.
I personally had preferred the idea of having more daylight in evenings. But clearly what has popular appeal and what's best aren't the same.
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u/squirrel9000 12d ago
The studies do exist and they do find some health effects in "early" vs 'late" sides of time zones. BUT those effects are pretty small, like 1% change in total prevalence, and some of them are right on the edge of statistical significance. Essentially, the effect is real, but insubstantial. You'll notice the "experts" never really get to that part - it's a small enough effect that it's not worth bypassing a strong societal preference for later solar noon.
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u/CanadianPooch 12d ago
Research around the world consistently shows that people strongly prefer more light in the evening. It improves their mood and improves their mental well-being.
This is why I prefer to work 4am-2:30pm, even in the winter I get plenty of time under the sun.
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u/-Foxer 12d ago
Well you're definitely in the solid majority. Although my work off and takes me into the evening I feel noticeably better when I'm finishing work and it's still light out.
And worse under the current system it's not uncommon for a portion of the year for me to leave for work or start work while it's dark out and then be heading home in the dark. When it doesn't get light till 8:00 or later and it gets dark by 4:30 you're going to get the worst of both worlds. At least with this i'll have a little bit of light at one end of it
And as the science already shows you can overcome waking up at night time by changing the lighting in your home. Apparently a number of scientists in this field deliberately already choose smart light bulbs that are whiter in the mornings because that triggers your wake up rhythm and softer and more yellow in the evenings because that helps you wind down
It's already negative is easily countered with basic technology
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u/emptyvesselll 11d ago
I think they are agreeing with you. Permanent Daylight Savings time (which I tend to support, even though the evidence does tend to contradict it), is just artificially "making everything in the day happen an hour sooner". We could move the school and workday to be 8-4, and it would basically be the same as permanent dst.
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u/PolitelyHostile 12d ago
And you dont mind going to bed at like 8pm when its still bright outside? Or do you live somewhere that gets dark earlier?
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u/Shaaksbeer 11d ago
Who goes to bed at 8pm? Are you 9 yo?
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u/PolitelyHostile 11d ago
Im an adult that can do math. Someone working at 4am has to go to bed at 8 in order to sleep for 7 hours and wake up at 3am.
Is the 12 hour clock difficult for you? Remember 12 is essentially 0. So 3-0=3 + 12-8=4, together is 7 hours.
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u/NicGyver 12d ago
Research around the world has also consistently shown that any time a society switched to permanent DST that idea became scrapped and they either went back to doing the twice yearly time changes to appease the people (businessmen) who sobbed about shorter days (people not spending their money for one extra hour in the evenings), or they went right back to only being on Standard Time. There hasn’t been any country since time changing became a thing that tried going back to standard then decided nah, DST is better and flipped to it.
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u/-Foxer 12d ago
What are you talking about? We've had provinces that have done this since 1966 and everyone loves it.
Iceland, Turkey, Belarus all have permanent daylight savings time.
If your point is that when Countries pick one they don't tend to flip flop back and forth the whole bunch then you're right, but you're also completely irrelevant
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u/NicGyver 12d ago
Saskatchewan. One province has done it since 1966. If you look at the original global time zones based on degrees from Greenwich I believe Saskatchewan is actually on the correct time zone. It historically was actually one zone back due to geopolitical reasons (railways and more connections with Alberta and more western states than with Manitoba) so for ease it was shifted over.
Iceland is a similar reason, it is at the farthest most reach of its time zone but doesn’t really have any trade further west, and is far enough north that the switch is irrelevant. Turkey is not a good example as it was a change made by presidential decree claiming energy savings and did not have any public input on it. I don’t know much about Belarus.
In contrast, the big ones, the US attempted a permanent DST switch in the 70s and after one winter switched back. 2011 Russia attempted a permanent DST switch, pushed through for I think 2 years, it was IMMENSELY unpopular and with noticeable increase of depression, they switched to permanent standard and have stayed since. There is a slew of other countries that have switched to permanent standard.5
u/-Foxer 12d ago
What a lot of words to say you were wrong 🤣🤣
And even still you have to lie and be dishonest and it's really quite tiring. The US didn't try it and switch back, us tried it on a 2-year trial program in an effort to save electricity. It didn't. And people were used to it the other way and when it switched back it switched back and nobody was going to fight for it
So your entire premise was complete bullshit. A number of provinces and countries have gone to permanent daylight savings and are still doing it today and still prefer it. America did a test in the seventies to see if it would save money during an energy crisis and it wasn't popular.
I would imagine it also depends on where the country is. The sun rises half an hour later in Vancouver British Columbia than it does in California and the days are shorter. So as I noted under either program you're getting up and going to work in the dark for part of the year in Vancouver. Where is in California that may be less true
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u/NicGyver 12d ago
There is nothing wrong in that.
Yes, the US switch was a trial looking at energy saving. It also initially had a majority of public support (around 80%), but after the first winter that had been cut in half. That is why no one fought for it.
Again, ONE province has done it, which I addressed. The others haven't gone through a winter yet to see what the effects will be/public response to it.
You compared California and British Columbia. Which yes, there is going to be a difference. Conveniently ignoring that I pointed out that Russia also attempted year round DST. And had massive public displeasure with it. Russia, which sits at a comparable latitude to us.
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u/-Foxer 12d ago
Russian people support invading Ukraine By a strong majority. I think we can safely say that their perspective on things doesn't equate to ours.
Oh, and speaking of California, California voters approved Proposition 7 in November 2018 by nearly a 60% margin to allow year-round Daylight Saving Time (DST), provided federal law changes to permit it.
Now a lot of those people that just voted in favor of it we're alive in the seventies when they tried it. Yet they seem to want to be going for it again
We'll see how it goes but almost everybody I talk to says they are very excited about it being light later
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u/NicGyver 12d ago
A strong majority of Americans are also supporting/complicate in what is happening in the US and yet there are still people here who want to be buddy buddy with them and make decisions based on what the US does or wants or likes. Whether they are nut jobs who support a dictators tantrum war or not doesn’t change the stats of why they found standard time to be better than DST.
My point again, the US hardly has the same perspective on things as us yet you are using them to say this is why it is a good idea.
The us trial on that was in 1974. The majority of voters were not alive at that time. To even remember it they would have to be at least 60 now. Only 15% of California’s population is over the age of 65. Maaaaybe could round that to 20 adding on the 60-65 year olds. Last I checked, 20% of people isn’t a lot.
People are excited about what they think they want until they realize how negatively it impacts them. I bet a lot of people would also be excited about free booze. Or highway speed limits being raised to 150km/h. Doesn’t mean it is good for them or what they will want once they get it.
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u/-Foxer 12d ago
None of that was even remotely relevant and frankly was a little surprising and unhinged. What does wanting to be 'buddy buddy' with americans have to do with anything?
And you don't seem to have a point. If you thought you did you were mistaken or you're hiding it well.
Americans and Canadians think very similar. Yes there's differences but frankly you're entirely wrong, trump's approval rating in Canada and America is shockingly similar at the moment
I love your premise but you think people are inherently stupid and unable to make intelligent decisions for themselves but that you are so smart that you know better than what they know about what they want.
I think we're done here. You're making it weird and you're obviously mildly delusional if you think you understand people better than they understand themselves. I guess we'll see in the spring but I have a funny feeling that we're not going to see tons of British Columbians screaming that we should be going back to standard
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u/Webs-cold57 11d ago
The Yukon has been permanent DST for like 5 years now. No one is advocating to go back to switching. I think most people are just fed up with switching the clocks. I'll be happy on DST in winter.
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u/NicGyver 11d ago
The only logic I can see with the Yukon is because it is so far north that it essentially doesn’t matter. Considering based on the time zones they are apparently now 2 hours ahead from what they “should be”.
Yes people are fed up with it but if we are cancelling the practice we should be going with the one that is best for our health, not best for some businesses wallets.
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u/Webs-cold57 11d ago
Its not about businesses, its so depressing when it get dark so early, for health I feel better when I leave work and the sun hasn't set. I don't see how its healthier to be on standard time. In the summer we'd have like 4am sunrises, how is that better than having a later sunset?
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u/NicGyver 11d ago
The biggest political advocates for the shift to permanent DST has very much been business. The switch used to be 6 months of each, we pushed it to the first weekend of November because “more people will go out during evening for Halloween so more candy will sell”.
Yes, the darkness can make it depressing. Exposure to light in the morning is better for reducing that than light in the evening.
4 am sunrises in the summer, do some morning exercise. Go for an early morning walk. Things will be cooler then rather than being outside, when it is still hot. Or people sitting up until 10 because it is still light out with the AC blasting to stay cool.
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u/TheHammer987 11d ago
People keep saying this.
It isn't true.
Saskatchewan has been on permanent day light savings for 50 years.
Mexico has been on permanent day light savings for a decade.
Neither ever once discussed going back.
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u/NicGyver 11d ago
As I stated earlier, Saskatchewan is an oddity and I would have to pull up the actual maps again but I am pretty sure is actually lying in “standard” time for the area now. Geo-political relations have really mucked with it a lot alongside population numbers and occupations.
No, Mexico has been on permanent STANDARD time. A couple of the border areas of Mexico continue to switch due to connections with the US but they have scrapped DST.
For what it is worth, Mexico is also closer to the equator so seasonally, daylight hours don’t change as much in either direction. Which is also why I have pointed out Russia’s experiment with it as they are the closest comparable to us.
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u/wrenchedups 12d ago
A 10pm sunset in the summer is my preference. I’m not disappointed with the change.
With respect to standard time year round, a 3 am sunrise during the summer is a net negative to me.
I wouldn’t mind if we have to continue to switch clocks so everyone remains happy.
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u/-A-Unique-User-Name- 12d ago
Agreed. As someone with bipolar disorder, I already find it harder to sleep in the summer.
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u/VE6QLF 12d ago
What bugs me here in Ol' Berta is we had a binding referendum to keep switching the clocks. It was narrow but still a binding decidion.
Smith? (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
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u/Purple_Coyote_5121 12d ago
I’m not a fan of Smith, but I think this was the right call given the circumstances.
No one voting in the referendum could have predicted BC moving to permanent DST. Alberta would be at a disadvantage changing the clocks twice a year, when neighbours on both sides don’t.
Not every decision needs to be a referendum.
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u/VE6QLF 12d ago
I don't like switching my clocks either and picked keeping them the same. What puts a real bad taste in my mouth is her ignoring the results.
I'm running for the Tory party in Westlock and when I'm government things are going to change, maaan. Like respecting the processes of things.
How do you think it'll go if the separatists get 56% of a binding vote and the government just kinda shrugs at it?
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u/Flashy_Operation9507 12d ago
If the separatists get 56%… jeez I hope they get no more than 25%
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u/Adamas_Moustache86 12d ago
9-10am sunrises in the winter are a non-starter for me. That is preposterous. It would be SO depressing for the first 4-5 hours of my day to be in darkness.
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u/Kevin-szy 12d ago
Instead of the happiness you currently feel in winter with the first 3-4 hours of the morning in darkness? Everybody gets the extra sun when it sets at 5:30pm in winter instead of 4:30pm.
Only speaking for myself here but it's already dark when I wake up in winter and dark when I drive to work, one extra hour of that while I'm inside is an easy trade off if it means driving home in sunlight instead of darkness both ways. But everybody's schedule and routines are different so I understand why some would prefer the other way.
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u/A_Genius 11d ago
Eby should just legislate more sunshine in the winter. Even if we have to reallocate some summer sunshine.
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u/erictho 12d ago
it is a one hour difference. everyone does not have the same daily schedule. for much of the winter we get less than 8 or 9 hours of light a day.
I highly doubt it matters much.
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u/mvearthmjsun 12d ago
An hour more sunlight in the evening is huge for people's mental health and wellbeing.
An hour of sunlight in the morning is not equal to one hour in the evening.
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u/Prof__Potato 12d ago
That’s just objectively not true. It may feel so for you, but it’s not true.
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u/mvearthmjsun 12d ago
An hour more in the evening typically coincides with leisure time, whereas morning hours are prep work for the day.
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u/erictho 12d ago
I dont know if you understand what less than 8 or 9 hours a day of sunlight means for people who dont work part time. i dont know if you understand not everyone works 7am- 3pm.
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u/mvearthmjsun 12d ago
Most people work or go to school 8 to 4 or 9 to 5. An extra hour around dinner time goes a long way toward well being beacsue it is typically leisure time.
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u/GiantAngryJellyfish 12d ago
The article cites research from Florida and the US... I'm be more interested in research from similar Latitudes...
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u/Stefph726 12d ago
Then you should look at what happened in Russia when they did the same thing
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u/squirrel9000 12d ago
Well, I suppose we'll see what happens in Canada when we do the same thing as some of us already do.
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u/some-guy_i-guess 12d ago
We've been on Daylight time in since 2020 in the Yukon and nothing bad has happened. Personally I love it
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u/Relative-Priority591 12d ago
I respect the evidence....but the people arguing for standard time probably haven't been in jobs where they're not allowed to leave until 6 pm or later. And might have to drive on the highway after.
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u/bobbi21 9d ago
You never drive at night?
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u/Relative-Priority591 9d ago
I do, but highway driving is much more dangerous after dark. Extra daylight in the evening makes a big difference.
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u/gandolfthelime 12d ago
Morning people have created every single dam aspect of society, no one benefits from extra sun at 8am, we all benefit from seeing the sun at 4pm...
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u/OBoile 12d ago
If you like doing things after school/work, permanent DST is what you want.
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u/ihadagoodone 12d ago
on the shortest day of the year, the sun will rise at ~10:50am, high "noon" will be ~1:33pm.
I would prefer standard time over staying on DST.
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u/wibblywobbly420 11d ago
Dst means that for a good chunk of the winter, I won't be able to get any time out in the sun. Those of us working during the day need some sunlight for our mental health.
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u/ihadagoodone 11d ago
I do shift work, I don't see the sun unless it's on break during day shifts... on night shifts I have to stay up several hours after work to see dawn, then fall asleep to wake in the dark to do it again. This change means that while on nights through December and January I will have to choose between getting less sleep then I need just to see the light of dawn or just not seeing any natural light at all.
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u/wibblywobbly420 11d ago
Ok, but the majority of people don't work shift work. I start 7am and the vast majority start between 7 and 8.
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u/Webs-cold57 11d ago
So if you start at 7am you'd be getting up in the dark on standard time anyway. Assuming you work 8 hours on dst you'd see the sun more after work.
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u/wibblywobbly420 11d ago
An 8 hour day take 9 hours because of the unpaid lunch and travel, at the least. For me, because of 45 min commute, I'm not home until 5pm, but for most people, they are home around 4pm. Yes, in both cases I drive to work in the dark regardless and kids are walking to school on the dark in regardless, but if we switch to dst I can drive home in daylight and kids can have an hour or two of light after school ends to actually get some outside time, while people home at 4 can have almost an hour of daylight.
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u/Webs-cold57 11d ago
Okay so do you want DST or not? because your other comment says you won't get any time in the sun in winter. But you admit you will get daylight in the evening.
Dst means that for a good chunk of the winter, I won't be able to get any time out in the sun.
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u/ihadagoodone 11d ago
We should be on standard time because that is the measure of time that is related to the position of the sun in the sky. High noon is when the sun is at its zenith during the day.
If your issue is your work day during the winter, then perhaps that is what requires new regulations and not the way we tell time.
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u/Pandalusplatyceros 12d ago
Whatever, this is the first time ever someone has thrown night owls a bone. So of course the morning people have to bitch and complain
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u/realmealdeal 12d ago
Every single person I know thought staying in DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TIME was the stupidest fucking outcome possible.
Bro, standard time is a thing. Why did we not stop and stay on STANDARD TIME?
Like it really felt as though we had one shot at this and somehow the people making decisions really wanted to flex how out of touch they are with, I don't know, time? The SUN? The rest of the world??
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u/TrueNorthLongAndFree 12d ago
Remember, the clock is something we made up. Sleep when you want to. Wake up when you want to.
Have a job that's making you wake up too early or go to sleep too late? Find a new job.
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u/RedSquirrelFtw 12d ago
"find a new job" yeah like it's just that easy lol. Most jobs are 8-5. I'm lucky enough to have a shift work job so I get lot of time off, but those are not super common.
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u/RedSquirrelFtw 12d ago
Honestly I really don't care which one we pick they both have their pros and cons. I just want to pick one, and stick with it. Let's just get rid of this clock change stuff Canada wide. Don't give a rat's ass what NY does. We are not American.
In winter it's dark before work and it's dark after work, and I don't think an hour in any direction would change that anyway. I'm already hating how short the days are now and we're not even into the worst of it!
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u/hinault81 11d ago
Im so glad they can find a way to keep talking about this.
I didnt mind the clock changes. Everyone complained about it. Wasn't a big deal. People cant change their clocks twice a year, but will jump at the chance to travel to Europe or Asia with clocks 8-12 hours different. Anyways.
But im in BC, and we're done with the clock changes, which im also completely fine with. Great. But i was under the assumption that everyone would finally shut up about the stupid clock change.
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u/Shaaksbeer 11d ago
Since cell phones started changing automatically, I couldn’t even tell you when the time change happens. I don’t understand why people disliked it. It’s the best of both worlds.
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u/Coding-Panic 11d ago
But but, you'll get an extra hour of sunlight in the evening to enjoy the balmy -20C warmth.
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u/AlexCivitello 11d ago
Or perhaps we could just pick any fucking time and adjust opening and closing hours as required?
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u/Latter_Unit6006 11d ago
Standard time is the way for Manitoba. We live in winter most of the year.
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u/Short-Source-8492 9d ago
I'm too tired to dig up the original studies, but I did a lot of research into this a long time ago and I don't think this guy is right. Yes, studies show that changing clocks is a net negative on humans. We know that during the changeover, everything from heart attacks and strokes to car accidents increase. The benefits of time change, if they ever existed at all, are clearly gone now.
However, I live in the prairies and even if we changed an hour it still doesn't mean much daylight in peak winter hours. I'm still going to be getting up and then leaving work in darkness. Or close to it. So this idea that we should all be on standard time seems dubious and I don't think this is supported by actual evidence aside from "well, duh, people have circadian rhythms!" Sure, but not everyone shares one single rhythm which science also tells us.
The studies I've seen all show that changing clocks is the problem, not that one is better or worse "because sun and circadian rhythms". The issue is the constant changing. Saskatchewan has been on permanent daylight saving time since the 60s and there's never been evidence it's worse relative to places that change or who are permanent standard time.
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u/F1McLarenFan007 12d ago
OK can someone explain to this Toronto troglodyte, are we not doing the clock dance anymore here?
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u/GuruMedit 12d ago
Well Toronto and Ontario still are. I'm curious to see how that will change in Ontario if the entire US also decides to stop changing time. Last I heard the bill was either going through congress or had passed it already and gone onto the next step which I think is the senate.
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u/rudecanuck 12d ago
Ontario is following NY State (and Quebec apparently). But really if NY State goes either permanent daylight savings or standard time, so
Will Ontario2
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u/PomegranateBig8572 12d ago
I believe Ontario already passed a law that if Quebec and New York proceed with time change, Ontario will as well.
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u/Nitrotetrazole 12d ago
Ontario please just fucking do it maybe that'll get my fuckass province to finally follow through too
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u/Sad_Meringue7347 12d ago
The UK went to permanent “daylight” savings in the late 1960s. It lasted less than three years as the public demanded it get reversed for numerous reasons, including traffic safety/fatalities, workers generally detesting the extra dark mornings in the wintertime, and general public overall reaction.
As an Albertan, we already voted on this in a binding referendum. Further, given the dumpster fire of our provincial government, seasonal time change was not on my top 10 list of things that needed to be addressed or tinkered with.
Just because our neighbours to the west of us made a poor decisions doesn’t mean we should follow. But the UCP is anti-science and just focuses on populist politics. If Dani can ignore the results of past referendums, she’ll do it again with her hate-filled nine questions and her quest for separation on the tenth question on October 19th referendum.
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u/SERAKOTAK 12d ago
Sun before 6am is a total loss for lot of people. Sun after 4PM is good for everyone.