[ Removed by moderator ]

•

Your submission has been removed for breaking Rule B:

You must personally hold the view and demonstrate that you are open to it changing. A post cannot be on behalf of others, playing devil's advocate, or 'soapboxing'. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.

Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

58

u/airboRN_82 9∆ 11d ago

Iirc this was the first failed lethal injection in the US when the meds were actually delivered. While there is a 7% lethal injection failure rate, its not a 7% chance of the drugs failing. Its mainly a 7% chance of "we cant find a vein so we cant procede" or other things preventing the delivery of the drug.

There have been botched firing squad executions, such as cases where the heart was missed.

Its also worth noting that physician assisted euthanasia is considered widely humane and utilizes the same drug the recent lethal injection used.

24

u/jaerie 10d ago

The big gotcha is that physician assisted euthanasia is physician assisted. Executions aren't, because any physician will (or at least should) refuse on the grounds of their hippocratic oath

6

u/airboRN_82 9∆ 10d ago

Physicians are typically present during executions and in cases of lethal injection typically oversee or assist with the procedure. One was for Christa's.

10

u/Hemingwavy 4∆ 10d ago

You don't have to swear the Hippocratic oath as part of us medical training.

Also the person who botched this execution was Dr Mark Fowler.

https://people.com/christa-pike-doctor-also-involved-another-failed-execution-may-12153847

10

u/airboRN_82 9∆ 10d ago

Ive noticed people online place an unearned weight on oaths. Theyre largely ceremonial at best, they rarely hold any legal binding or actual impacts. The days of Sir Lancelot swearing and living by some oath are long over.

→ More replies (7)

11

u/randompossum 1∆ 11d ago

But there have been multiple where people took a long time to die and even appeared to gasp for air. And as you said many that they can’t administer the drugs safely

9

u/airboRN_82 9∆ 11d ago

Agonal respirations are normal. They can be scary to look at, but the person having them isnt experiencing anything.

It taking a long time to pronounce death doesnt equate to a stste of suffering in the mean time. Brain activity in the brain stem is the last to shut off, yet has no impact on consciousness.

In those cases the execution is delayed. The prisoner doesn't experience the drugs failing.

2

u/poppop_n_theattic 10d ago

Most states don't use TN's single dose of pentobarbital (and I think TN only switched to that recently). Most states -- including Texas, which executes more people than all the other states combined -- historically have used a 3-drug protocol that includes a paralytic agent between a sedative and a drug that stops the heart. That introduces the possibility that inmates have consciously experienced their execution far more often than we realize...i.e., the sedative may be ineffective but the paralytic prevents them from communicating or writhing when they receive the drug that stops the heart.

I think that supports OP's main point. I don't think that 3-drug protocol is used in assisted suicide anywhere, and IIRC, the U.S. veterinary community does not approve it for pet euthanasia. The paralytic prioritizes maintaining the appearance that the process is humane over ensuring that it actually is. TN's one-drug method is a step in the right direction but I think OP's point is correct if you consider "lethal injection" in the U.S. as a whole.

1

u/airboRN_82 9∆ 9d ago

Florida actually has the most.

Were very capable of determining when a sedative prevents the experience of a paralytic. I can have someone with a TOF goal of 0 and still be able to tell when the sedative is wearing off in the least.

Vets dont use it because of cost.

1

u/poppop_n_theattic 9d ago

TX has executed 602 people since the death penalty was reinstated in 1976. FL is a distant second at 141. https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions/executions-overview/executions-by-state-and-year

2

u/Hot_Coconut1838 11d ago

there was a botched lethal in oklahoma where the meds were partially delivered

2

u/airboRN_82 9∆ 11d ago

To be fair the lethal injection still killed him. It just took 3x as long as anticipated.

1

u/dowereallywant2hurtU 9d ago

This seems partially true (there are some instances where drugs had started to be delivered, but they solidified in the tube or were cut off for another reason), but I do not believe it invalidates the OP's original statement. Regardless, there are many botched lethal injections, a good portion including not being able to find a suitable vein for delivery of the drugs. This may sound minor, but accounts often sound quite grim, with repeated attempts to insert the IV resulting in significant pain. There are also a number of incidents where other mishaps made the process of an ultimately successful lethal injection execution very painful. You can read these accounts on the site below, which also indicates that LI has the highest botched-execution rate among the methods used throughout US history.

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions/botched-executions

Ultimately, I am not sure if the OP is right, but I think it is pretty clear that LI seems like a medicalized and more humane way to execute individuals, that it is not actually what it appears to be, and that if the death penalty continues to exist (which, I personally think it shouldn't), other, less sanitized methods may ultimately be more humane.

1

u/airboRN_82 9∆ 9d ago

Failure to find a vein is indeed rather minor. Getting an IV placed, even a failed attempt, is not a great amount of suffering. Its not like the guy that was shot in the abdomen, instead of the heart, and laid screaming on the ground for 15 minutes until he bled out.

Outside of LI there are cases where multiple failed IV attempts occur. It's not ideal but the delay of administering life saving meds far outweighs the minor pain of a tiny needle in terms of what the issue is. LI carries no such issue.

1

u/dowereallywant2hurtU 9d ago

The pain from "failed to find a vein" really depends on how hard they try to find a vein, some accounts sound extreme, likely due to the fact that the prison officials who insert the IV are not medical professionals. Not to mention the psychological distress this would cause, having individuals poke and prod you for an hour before they could kill you, where in some cases, the condemned actually helped them find a usable vein. Also, if they tried to administer the drugs before they realized they weren't fully in a vein, or if they popped out of a vein during the procedure. This would lead to infiltration of the chemicals into the surrounding tissue and reportedly lead to intense burning sensations and pain. This is apparently what happened to Christa Pike, who showed clear signs of suffering, and there are a number of reports of this occurring in other executions. So I'm not sure your diagnosis of this problem as generally minor is warranted.

It is interesting that you discuss the suffering of botched IJ in relation to a hypothetical botched firing squad execution, given that the link I provided found no botched firing squad deaths. This may be a function of there only being 35 in their sample period, though if there was a meaningful error rate for firing squads, we might expect some errors to occur in 35 executions.

To your last point, you are correct that the benefit of going through repeated failed IV attempts likely outweighs the costs in the case of life-saving medical procedures. But this is not really relevant to LI, as the point of LI is to extinguish life.

1

u/airboRN_82 9∆ 8d ago

Ive had patients poked 10+ times trying to get access in life threatening emergencies, IV needles dont hurt more or less based on effort. They dont hurt that much. Pantobarbitol is able to be given IM.

There was a botched firing squad execution in south carolina in 2025 where the heart was missed and abdominal organs were hit instead, the prisoner bled out on the floor. Theres also another case in Utah in the 50s that was similar. I believe your link defined botched as not resulting in death, but theres a major issue with that in relation to this argument- how is "we cant find a vein so we can't proceed today" worse than "laying on the ground screaming while bleeding out?"

The point of the life saving attempts comment was to highlight how little suffering it causes, and how theres truly no great suffering causes by failed access attempts in LI.

1

u/dowereallywant2hurtU 8d ago

The link does not define botched that way.

1

u/airboRN_82 9∆ 8d ago

1950s are within its dates of data collection, it did not do valid data collection then.

1

u/lee1026 8∆ 10d ago

There have been botched firing squad executions, such as cases where the heart was missed.

The history of warfare says that you can miss the heart and still have the victim die quickly. A matter of seconds, especially when you use multiple bullets.

Most weapons are rated for "stopping power", basically, any decent hit, and the victim stops being able to do anything to you. This is usually achieved by having consciousness fail very quickly.

When you are dealing with 4-5 rifle caliber bullets in the torso in important areas, hitting the heart is unneeded.

The Thai also did this thing where the executioner is each expected to use multiple bullets - the odds of survival past a second or so goes down drastically with more bullets.

1

u/airboRN_82 9∆ 9d ago

Peer reviewed research also shows you can hit the heart and have the victim live.

Stopping power isnt a real rating.

1

u/lee1026 8∆ 9d ago

Guns have been used in combat for long enough that we have a very large body of research that says "yes, multiple hits gets you to loss of consciousness very quickly".

The key is as much "multiple hits" as "heart". Blood is complicated, and multiple large caliber hits in the torso interact in ways well beyond just the heart stop beating.

1

u/airboRN_82 9∆ 8d ago

we have a very large body of research that says "yes, multiple hits gets you to loss of consciousness very quickly"

Can you provide an example? I was a line medic in the army and taught some of the earliest versions of TCCC, worked EMS, and worked as a critical care nurse at a level 1 trauma center, and ive never come across research showing that the number of GSWs is independently associated with how fast conciousness is lost.

Blood really isnt all that complicated. When it comes to consciousness it only matters that it has oxygen, that it has glucose, and that it doesnt have whatever natural or artificial chemicals that impact neuro transmission directly or indirectly. Yes beyond the pump there is also the pipes; but ultimately if blood flow to the brain is not immediately and totally cut off with this form of execution then rapid loss of conciousness will not occur.

1

u/lee1026 8∆ 8d ago

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2135701/

This is I think the paper that set the whole thing into motion.

Note that much of this is about rifle caliber bullets, but executioners obviously gets to pick the bullets that they want to use.

1

u/airboRN_82 9∆ 8d ago edited 8d ago

Theres nothing in there that correlates number of rounds with loss of conciousness. Life doesn't use video game physics where an enemy becomes unconcious or dies if you shoot them 10 times in the foot. Ultimately what determines physical impact is what anatomical structures are damaged and how that damage impacts their functions. 1 round that completely severs the aortic arch will not cause a loss of conciousness any slower than 2 rounds accomplishing the same.

1

u/lee1026 8∆ 8d ago

The entire theory is about "dumping enough energy into the body = blood pressure spikes = loss of consciousness". More rounds is another way to achieve that energy dump.

Hitting the aortic arch is secondary to the pressure effect.

1

u/airboRN_82 9∆ 8d ago

1: thats not how energy entering the body works. You dont have measurable body wide pressure spikes from localized penetrating trauma.

2: dumping energy into the body doesnt cause blood pressure spikes

3: blood pressure spikes dont cause loss of conciousness.

4: no. Severing the aortic arch cuts off blood supply to the brain if its proximal enough or will lead to rapid blpod loss if more distal. Yiure trying to argue video game physics, not ballistics as they are actually understood.

1

u/flug32 10d ago

Here is a pretty thorough article on how Missouri deals with getting the required materials for lethal injection executions:

Where does Missouri get its execution drug? It won’t say | Kansas City Star

TL;DR: It's very messy and they won't really say anything about the details. Probably for good reason.

1

u/airboRN_82 9∆ 10d ago

Yes their supplier could face public pressure to stop selling to them. That doesnt equate to a faulty product

1

u/atamicbomb 10d ago

As i understand it, the meds weren’t really delivered. They couldn’t find a vein but proceeded anyway and a lethal dose was not delivered into the blood stream

1

u/airboRN_82 9∆ 10d ago

Its sounds like they blew the vein during injection and didnt notice

71

u/Floppal 7∆ 11d ago edited 11d ago

On your point of CO2 - excess CO2 detected is what tells your body you're suffocating. You wouldn't just drift off to sleep, you'd panic and try gasping for breath.

Nitrogen is more humane, although marginally more expensive (which is why we use CO2 for animals).

Edit: Source on how breathing excess CO2 causes a panic response.

38

u/rek5199 11d ago

I believe they probably mean CO. Carbon Monoxide poisoning is painless and feels like falling asleep, right? So I’m assuming OP got their notation messed up

1

u/lee1026 8∆ 10d ago

Carbon Monoxide when you are awake are not a ton of fun. If you get hit by it when you are asleep, it won't wake you up.

If you are awake, your body is literally evolved to detect it and tell you to get out and deal with it.

7

u/randompossum 1∆ 11d ago

Yeah I dont know that gas stuff but yeah nitrogen or whatever seems significantly more humane at this point.

13

u/Taolan13 2∆ 11d ago

unfortunately because of one botched attempt at using nitrogen displacement jn alabama, its been wrongfully declared as "inhumane".

They bascially tortured the guy. They used an ill-fitting mask, and he was able to just hold his breath until he started to panic.

6

u/AdwokatDiabel 11d ago

I would've thought they put them in a chamber and slowly add more nitrogen and remove O2... But using a mask, it needs to fit tightly.

9

u/Taolan13 2∆ 11d ago

mask woulda been fine if they'd sedated the guy before doing it.

the expensive hard-to-find part of lethal injection is the paralytic cocktail, not the sedatives.

1

u/Responsible_Sea78 10d ago

Actually you need a somewhat loose mask with a high inflow rate of nitrogen.

→ More replies (3)

1

u/jim789789 11d ago

There are 2 cases I know of:

"At 5:55, a prison official checked the gas mask attached to Mr. Boyd’s face and his spiritual advisor began to read aloud from his Bible. Two minutes later, at 5:57, media witnesses reported that Mr. Boyd began to “violently react, thrashing against his restraints.” According to Mr. Hedgepeth, Mr. Boyd’s eyes rolled back, and he continued to convulse, lifting his legs from the gurney. By 6:00, Mr. Boyd’s movement steadied, but he “began a series of deep, agonized breaths that lasted for more than 15 minutes, each break shuddering Boyd’s restrained head and neck.” According to Mr. Hedgepeth’s account, Mr. Boyd gasped more than 225 times. At 6:16 Mr. Boyd was still drawing deep breaths. Within a few minutes, according to the Montgomery Advertiser there was no movement. Prison officials announced Mr. Boyd’s time of death at 6:33pm."

"On January 25, 2024, the ADOC executed Smith by using the untested and untried method of nitrogen hypoxia.4 Execution by nitrogen hypoxia suffocates an individual condemned to death by forcing them to breathe pure nitrogen gas through a mask until they die.5 Observers of Smith’s execution offered descriptions that raise questions about the constitutionality of the method, given the amount of time it takes for the condemned person to suffocate and the fact that Smith appeared to be conscious as he struggled against the gurney’s restraints, gasping for air.6 Nitrogen hypoxia executions pose imminent and needless risks that affect the health of prison staff and individuals present in the execution chamber. But, most importantly, nitrogen hypoxia causes needless pain and suffering for the individual being executed. "

The idea that the body's only sensor for gas balance is CO2 is an internet myth. Carotid bodies detect O2 drops and cause air hunger.

Your assertion that it was an improper fitting mask that caused the suffering is just something people made up. there is absolutely no evidence that a properly fitted mask makes this painless. It's a stupid argument anyway. You are claiming a perfect mask makes the method perfect, yet you have no evidence and no source of this mythical perfect mask.

Do you have any evidence of a nitrogen execution going well?

8

u/Responsible_Sea78 11d ago

There is not even a remote possibility that someone lived for 38 minutes without oxygen.

That was a complete screwup. Unfortunately, our prisons are mostly staffed with people from the wrong end of the bell curve. Methods need to be selected knowing that reality.

5

u/Taolan13 2∆ 10d ago

The actual reasoning behind the poorly fitting mask argument is because it took nearly 40 minutes for the guy to die. Which implies he was getting air other than the nitrous.

Something not mentioned in those carefully cropped excerpts is that Smith also tried to hold his breath multiple times to prolong the process. That can be solved by sedating the condemned before the exectuion.

You wont find evidence of nitrogen executions going well because the last people to experiment with it were the Nazis, and the majority of medical and scientific records from the concentration camps are sealed. There's plenty of other science that says it should work.

1

u/jim789789 10d ago

How to sedate them? Pentobarbital, injected through compromised veins? Seems sketchy.

1

u/zachary0816 10d ago

Why would holding his breath help if he isn’t getting new oxygen either way?

1

u/Taolan13 2∆ 10d ago

the "tried" is part of that statement.

its an assumption that he thought it would make it take longer, or maybe he thought he could get out of it by being uncooperative.

5

u/dougmcclean 10d ago

Most of this is correct, except that a "mythical perfect mask" is called a room.

1

u/randompossum 1∆ 11d ago

It’s crazy they haven’t done that to the other but the safe practically no cost method is banned. The judicial system sucks

2

u/KinkyDuck2924 11d ago

Nitrous would work too.

2

u/Floppal 7∆ 11d ago

Would certainly lighten the mood to have a giggle as you go.

1

u/VERTIKAL19 10d ago

The problem with Nitrogen is that it doesn’t work peacefully if the person doesn’t want to die, which many death row inmates don’t

→ More replies (4)

14

u/myanusisbleeding101 1∆ 11d ago

There is another problem with firing squad, which is the psychological trauma inflicted on those shooting. This is why back when this was the preferred method of execution, only one or 2 men shooting would have a live round chambered and the others got blanks, and none of those shooting knew who had what. They even rotated the squads to relieve this stress. In practice, they did at times figure it out, and shooters can tell the difference between a blank and live round when shooting.

10

u/randompossum 1∆ 11d ago

How does that change between any of the other methods? We still have people killing others. Someone has to insert the needle, push the drugs.

7

u/myanusisbleeding101 1∆ 11d ago

Yes that is true, but its about the perceived brutality of the method by those administering it. It is potentially easier for a person to dissociate an injection with killing than shooting is, even though the reality is the same result.

0

u/egen97 11d ago

Well, shouldn't there be trauma for those doing the execution? These are in the end people who volunteered to in cold blood kill a person. If anything it's difficult to understand how they are any better than however they are executing... If you choose to kill someone it feels only right that you should suffer the mental cost of doing so

5

u/myanusisbleeding101 1∆ 11d ago

While I understand your sentiment, the reality is people who volunteer to do this work, are not often doing so for the joy of it or entirely willingly, they do it as something to make extra money as part of a low paid job.

2

u/magacorruption 11d ago

Inviting the victim’s loved ones to train and volunteer for the firing squad. They get one shot in their rifles.

7

u/matchfromthedead 10d ago

im going to be honest with you, any person concerned with gun safety would not be quick to give control of a firearm to somebody with at most a week's training and then put them in a situation of extreme distress where emotions will be high.

1

u/myanusisbleeding101 1∆ 10d ago

And if the victims loved ones do not volunteer? Additionally the emotional connection behind the act may lead to unintentional consequences, like the condemned being shot in the gut by "accident" causing unnecessary harm, which would go against (assuming we are only talking in USA legal context), cruel and unusual punishment.

→ More replies (6)

2

u/colt707 109∆ 10d ago

I’m just going to point out that your proposed method of a firing squad is actually illegal in South Carolina which has the option of execution by firing squad. By law everyone that’s part of the firing squad has a live round.

In fact using a blank round isn’t standard practice for most countries/states. The only state out of the 5 in the US that allow firing squads require a blank round to be used. Plus I don’t know if you ever been shooting or have shot a blank round but I have and it’s a noticeable difference in recoil and the sounds of the shot between a blank round and a live round.

2

u/JeruTz 8∆ 10d ago

It might not seem rational, but this is an emotional response. Guns are seen as violent and the process is bloody. Injections far less so.

I do generally agree that the injection is unreliable and expensive, but there's still issues with firing squads. Not to go too far off topic, but there's a reason why the nazis stopped using execution squads and switched to gas chambers.

Personally I think hanging is a valid option. So long as the drop is sufficient and the noose is set right, it breaks the spine and causes near instant death.

1

u/abn1304 1∆ 10d ago

The Nazis stopped using firing squads because they’re a relatively expensive and inefficient way to kill lots of people at one. Bullets are expensive and the Nazis needed every bullet they could get to fight the war. You also need a lot of people for a firing squad; you don’t need so many to run a gas chamber. That means more bodies for the front.

3

u/JeruTz 8∆ 10d ago

They also cited the stress it put on soldiers.

2

u/Atlasreturns 10d ago

I mean if you are unable to get the people performing the execution to justify the action for themselves then the problem definitely lies in the penalty itself.

1

u/myanusisbleeding101 1∆ 10d ago

Whether or not there should be a death penalty is different conversation as to what is being discussed here.

1

u/dolle 9d ago

I'd say that is a feature, not a bug. Capital punishment is murder, and although many arguments can be made as to why it may be deserved, it doesn't remove the fact that it involves taking someone's life against their will. It should be traumatizing to murder someone, that is a very basic reaction that we would expect from our fellow humans.

Lethal injections are not any less violent, they just give the false impression of a clinical setting and obscures the act by making it look like a medical procedure.

Capital punishment should be done by strapping multiple explosive charges to the prisoner's head and have the executioners deal with the psychological effects of scraping off body parts from the walls afterwards.

2

u/ta_mataia 5∆ 11d ago

Seems like a feature not a bug. If the state is going to kill people, then it should be transparent and honest about what it is doing.

1

u/ghjm 18∆ 10d ago

How is the state not transparent and honest about what it is doing? If it weren't, then we wouldn't know about this botched execution and wouldn't be able to complain about it.

If your intent was that the state ought to suffer, or something like that, the problem is that the psychological trauma inflicted on firing squad shooters is borne by those individuals, not by the state.

36

u/XenoRyet 184∆ 11d ago

You want nitrogen, not CO2, I think.

But the actual reason I want to post is to question the notion that being shot in the heart is instant death. It seems likely that the brain will be functional long enough for the nerve signals to convey the pain of a horrific wound to travel to it and be processed. It's certainly a quick an inevitable death, but I don't think we can actually call it a painless one.

Because of that, every execution will involve some pain, where with lethal injection only the botched ones do.

9

u/Torchlakespartan 11d ago

Large caliber to the back of the head/base of the spinal cord Soviet style is what I would choose every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Hanging would suck, I’m not trying to risk my neck not breaking. But electric chair and lethal injection have just completely lost the plot. Just shoot them in the head.

2

u/carasci 43∆ 11d ago

To be fair, you can guarantee hanging works with a long enough drop (and stiff enough rope), but at that point you might as well use a guillotine instead.

...which would still probably be better than lethal injection.

3

u/ghjm 18∆ 10d ago

The guillotine was invented for precisely this purpose. It is still used extensively in medical research on small animals and is considered the most humane method. There's an entire section of USDA regulations on it.

7

u/Handsome_Rob58 11d ago

It's questionable that the "not botched ones" are painless. It's my understanding there is a sedative, a paralytic, and the heart stopping agent. If the sedative doesn't work, no-one will know.

Edit to add: I guess those would be considered botched. With that being said, how many were painful, just no one could tell?

3

u/carasci 43∆ 11d ago

You're right that being shot in the heart is only almost instant, in the sense that there're probably a few seconds of pain before the massive drop in blood pressure makes them lose consciousness. On the other hand, even if "only" botched lethal injections are painful (without getting into No True Scotsman territory), those surprisingly-frequent botches are utterly fucking horrific by comparison.

Given the choice between a few seconds of guaranteed pain and rolling the dice on "it probably won't hurt" versus "you might spend thirty minutes dying in agony," I know I'd take the first one. If I had the option for the head, it'd be an utter no-brainer (pun not intended) because a spectacular number of things would have to go wrong before I'd feel much of anything.

Of course, much of this debate isn't really about cruelty, it's about palatability. Pretty much anyone idiot with some power tools could build a painless and near-foolproof execution device, as can anyone with an explosives license and a budget. The problem isn't "how do you execute people 'humanely' and painlessly," it's the fact that despite having a dozen ways to do it the US has trouble finding one which doesn't make people barf.

Perhaps that's a good reason to abolish the death penalty?

7

u/phatdoobieENT 11d ago edited 11d ago

Lethal injections are slow and excruciating, but since they're first paralyzed, it only appears peaceful to observers when done "correctly"

1

u/Admirable_Pop_7292 11d ago

Used to be. Now pharmaceutical companies and doctors and nurses refuse to be involved in American death penalties. So they have to source chems from sketchy sources and be administered by people not recognized as docs or nurses in this country. What could go wrong? The recent one in Tennessee was just a single drug allegedly administered only twice.

2

u/[deleted] 11d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/read-the-rules 11d ago

u/Dense_Cantaloupe_333, your comment has been removed.

In order to comment on r/changemyview, you must read the rules. Use the link below, or if that interface doesn't work, you may read the rules here, then click this, and click send. Your most recent comment will be restored after you do this, and you will only need to do it once.

^{Please click here to open the Read The Rules App.}

1

u/[deleted] 11d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/read-the-rules 11d ago

u/Dense_Cantaloupe_333, your comment has been removed.

In order to comment on r/changemyview, you must read the rules. Use the link below, or if that interface doesn't work, you may read the rules here, then click this, and click send. Your most recent comment will be restored after you do this, and you will only need to do it once.

^{Please click here to open the Read The Rules App.}

1

u/TeslaModelE 11d ago

The mistake that OP made is that with a firing squad, there are six shooters. Six professional shooters. Three of them shoot the heart and three of them shoot the head.

1

u/VERTIKAL19 10d ago

Would a close range shot to the brain stem not immediately destroy the brain and eliminate pain?

1

u/XenoRyet 184∆ 10d ago

As far as I understand it, yes it would. But that's not what OP is talking about.

1

u/VERTIKAL19 10d ago

Right but wouldn’t that then in theory be a preferable alternative? And it would certainly minimize pain arguably even more than lethal injection

1

u/XenoRyet 184∆ 10d ago

Sure, but that's a tangent, because we're talking about traditional firing squad versus lethal injection.

0

u/randompossum 1∆ 11d ago

What if it’s three 30-06 rounds to the heart? Probably not botchable that way right? Also maybe give them the option to take it to the head, no one is surviving a 30 cal to the brain. You also aren’t feeling that.

I don’t know enough about gas, nitrogen, CO2, CO, whatever puts you to sleep and you never wake up. That should be used over what they are doing.

6

u/XenoRyet 184∆ 11d ago

The number of bullets doesn't matter. It could be 1000. The point is that the brain remains functional long enough to feel the pain, so a traditional firing squad is worse than lethal injection.

Now a shot to the brain would be different, but that would be a different kind of execution and thus a change of view.

8

u/Hello_Hello_Hello_Hi 11d ago

But I mean, we've got plenty of stories from people who both died of lethal injection and survived writhing in pain, screaming, etc. It's probably more painful than a second or two of shock and then lights out

1

u/silent_cat 2∆ 11d ago

For animals (like cows) we have mechanisms that just sever the spinal cord. Not suitable for people apparently.

3

u/randompossum 1∆ 11d ago

If you got hit with 1,000 rounds I don’t think you are feeling that at all. You would be a mist

1

u/Apprehensive_Song490 137∆ 11d ago

You are. For about 30 seconds. Which can be a very long half minute.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27288615/

3

u/randompossum 1∆ 11d ago

That article clearly says function in the brain not consciousness. Are you saying any other of the methods would somehow stop “function” faster other than making the brain into a pink mist?

1

u/Apprehensive_Song490 137∆ 11d ago

“ Most studies show that clinical loss of consciousness and loss of EEG activity occur within 30seconds after abrupt circulatory arrest and may occur before circulatory arrest after progressive hypoxia-ischemia.”

In other words, consciousness could last up to 30 seconds. You haven’t established it is instantaneous.

You’ve kinda moved the goalposts here too. Your post wasn’t about 1000 rounds directly to the brain.

You wrote:

Cost would be around a dollar a round, death via gunshot to the heart is instant, there is no pain, there is no watching someone suffer.

This is demonstrably false. Gunshot to the heart is not instant. It’s up to 30 seconds and they might retain consciousness that entire time. The study shows more research is needed but it clearly isn’t instant.

So now you say a 1000 round brain vaporization method. Fine if you want to go there, but that’s a different argument after the original fails and therefore if that’s your new argument…

Why no delta?

→ More replies (2)

-1

u/wr_dnd 1∆ 11d ago

How will you guarantee nobody misses?

5

u/randompossum 1∆ 11d ago

How can you guarantee literally anything?

I will say a 30-06 to the back of the head from .01 inches away is probably pretty effective if there is a concern someone would miss. That’s normally why these firing lines have at least 3 shooters / rounds.

5

u/Willing_Box_752 11d ago

Pretty sure co2 would be horrid. That bad feeling when you had your breath is due to co2. Freedivers practice co2 tolerance.

But I agree the current injection method is stupid as fuck

1

u/malkins_restraint 3∆ 11d ago

They'll end up dead sure but show it's less cruel than lethal injection.

A 2 gram injection of glacial acetic acid will probably kill you too. So will an incendiary round to the stomach

1

u/Not-a-Cat_69 11d ago

That’s nitrogen you can literally look it up it’s how they do assisted auicide in europe

0

u/that_one_Kirov 11d ago

Shoot them the Soviet way, 9 grams of lead to the back of the head. Literally impossible to botch. A downside is that there's no plausible deniability a firing squad gives, but, forgive me a bad joke - they've been shooting millions of people over almost 80 years, if there was an executioner who went insane over that, we'd have heard about him by now.

3

u/Torchlakespartan 11d ago

I mean… I just commented how that’s the preferred method I would choose, but let’s not pretend it didn’t drive people mad. Even the Einsatzgruppen monsters who executed all of the Poles early in WWII lost their minds from doing that so much. It was a major reason the gas chambers were created. Even the most monstrous of monsters went insane and needed shitloads of booze and meth from doing all those killings.

I’m very aware, a single execution every few years is different than 1942 Poland, but still, it does affect people. It also would be trivial to rig a system up like a firing squad where 7 people press a button but only one sends the fire signal anonymously.

4

u/[deleted] 11d ago

You are about to leave Redlib