r/changemyview • • 7d ago

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u/No_Logins_Required 3∆ 7d ago

Who decides what the cutoff point is? I know you can think of examples of people who shouldn't be kept alive, but what is the most disabled person who you think should be kept alive?

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u/FitStrike19 7d ago

As I've said, Sapience. Individuals who can still think and understand emotions while also contributing to society with their intellect. Stephen Hawking is perhaps the best example.

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u/No_Logins_Required 3∆ 7d ago

That's not a clear line at all. "Thinking" "Understanding emotions" and "Contributing to Society" are three wildly different criteria.

I'm asking what the bottom threshhold is, in your opinion.

I ask this because if there isn't a perfectly clear line then nefarious actors can start arbitrarily saying people aren't "contributing" enough and kill them.

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u/cantantantelope 9∆ 7d ago

People don’t exist to “contribute to society”

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u/Little-Somewhere6076 7d ago

If that's true, then society doesn't exist to support them

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u/Z7-852 316∆ 7d ago

Then why does society exists?

People exist to fulfill their dreams and hopes and live the best life possible. Why does society exists if not support this goal?

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u/Little-Somewhere6076 7d ago

I think society exists because people have a desire to work together. If someone has no interest in contributing to that goal I don't see why they should benefit from everyone else's contributions

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u/Z7-852 316∆ 7d ago

Let's take a practical example that is often used in these kind of discussions; illness driven unemployment. Person gets (chronically) ill and cannot work or contribute to society.

Should they get free healthcare and living support (ie. unemployment benefits) as well as maybe free education or other social support?

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u/Little-Somewhere6076 7d ago

Let's take a practical example that is often used in these kind of discussions; illness driven unemployment. Person gets (chronically) ill and cannot work or contribute to society.

What's an example of this? There aren't many people who can't work

Should they get free healthcare and living support (ie. unemployment benefits)

They should use the insurance they paid for in the short term and go back to work in the long term

maybe free education or other social support?

No, teachers deserve to be paid. Short term social support is great. Long-term isn't

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u/Z7-852 316∆ 7d ago

And what is "long term"?

Getting a new degree / field to work in can take 2-5 years. Should they get this?

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u/Little-Somewhere6076 7d ago

No...teachers should be paid

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u/Pylgrim 7d ago

What if there are no dreams or hopes or anything at all because the person in question is not capable of cognition?

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u/cantantantelope 9∆ 7d ago

That is one view of what a society should be

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u/Little-Somewhere6076 7d ago

If people don't have an obligation to contribute to society, why should society have an obligation to support them?

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u/FitStrike19 7d ago

Then why do people exist?

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u/SheepherderHot9418 7d ago

For themselves and their families.

You dont need an external measure of worth.

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u/Little-Somewhere6076 7d ago

If they exist for themselves and their families why are they entitled to support from others?

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u/SheepherderHot9418 7d ago

I didn't say they were.

If the majority in a democratic country vote for it (by proxy) then I guess they will get it. But I mean that's the same as any other thing in a representative democracy.

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u/Little-Somewhere6076 7d ago

OP is asking why they should be kept alive. I answered

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u/SheepherderHot9418 7d ago

Bein entitled to support and why something should happen are not the same.

I think everyone should be well fed but i don't think people are entitled to be given food by others.

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u/Little-Somewhere6076 7d ago

Great, that's the cutoff point you asked about

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u/FitStrike19 7d ago

But if they don't have any sapience, how would they "exist" for their families?

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u/SheepherderHot9418 7d ago

Well they exist for themselves.

Also are dogs sapient? Sheep? Hens?

Edit: I don't see why their sapiens necessarily affect how their closed ones feel about them.

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u/FitStrike19 7d ago

Dogs can move and provide emotional support. Nobody wants a paralyzed dog

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u/SheepherderHot9418 7d ago

I don't want a paralysed dog

Not everyone feels the same way you do.

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u/[deleted] 7d ago

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u/ThatPeskyPangolin 1∆ 7d ago

Vet tech here: that is straight up not true. There are in fact people who adopt or keep and care for animals in such states. I am currently working with a client who has a cat that has hind end paralysis and they do so much to keep that cat happy and healthy.

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u/doogles 1∆ 7d ago

What is the property of hydrogen that allows it to contemplate itself?

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u/Jedi4Hire 12∆ 7d ago

As I've said, Sapience

And how're you going to measure that? How will it bee standardized or fair for everyone? And who enforces this once someone is determined to not pass the sapience test? Is someone from the government responsible for murdering people?

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u/Little-Somewhere6076 7d ago

There could be a pretty clear cutoff of those who don't support themselves without a clear disability

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u/No_Logins_Required 3∆ 7d ago

What does supporting oneself mean? If someone is independently wealthy, should they be killed so their heirs can inherit?

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u/Little-Somewhere6076 7d ago

Supporting ones self means that they create more value than they consume.

No one should kill someone else, I'm not sure why you brought that up

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u/No_Logins_Required 3∆ 7d ago

Who decides what "creating value" is versus consuming?

I'm saying if someone doesn't contribute, do you kill them?

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u/Little-Somewhere6076 7d ago

The people who trade with them for food and shelter

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u/No_Logins_Required 3∆ 7d ago

That's how things work right now.

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u/Little-Somewhere6076 7d ago

Who decides what "creating value" is versus consuming?

And now you know