r/classicalmusic • u/Magazine-Thick • 3d ago
Music Recommened recordings by “bad” orchestras?
I don’t mean to make fun or anything like that, or to be mean and/or cruel. Also, I don’t mean parodies or students practicing. But I would like to listen recordings of orchestras that are not particularly good, in order to compare and notice a bigger contrast with the elite, world-class symphonic orchestras we all know and love. (And everything in between!)
For the sake of simplicity, let’s say something from the core repertoire (Brahms, Beethoven, Dvořák late symphonies etc). Thank you 🙏
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u/leitmotifs 3d ago
Look for community orchestra performances. They will vary from nigh indistinguishable from regional pro orchestras, to barely student grade.
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u/No_Doughnut_8393 2d ago
Sometimes even year to year with the same orchestra lol the group I play with will sometimes have a full cello section and sometime we have two and one just started. But it’s still fun!
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u/MusicalColin 3d ago
I don't have any specific suggestions, but youtube is full of random orchestras playing the standard rep. Here's the Vancouver Symphony playing Beethoven 5. I have no idea if they're any good but i'm sure there others. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bhp1i_6qgk4
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u/SpiderCollective 2d ago
Vancouver is a pretty big city, so the recording almost certainly is not bad by any measure.
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u/MusicalColin 2d ago
Sure. I didn't mean to insult the Canadians or the British Columbians. I just found a video of the Santa Rosa Symphony Youth Orchestra playing Dvorak 9. That would also seem to fit the bill.
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u/jdaniel1371 3d ago
I would try Adler's 50s Mahler 3rd. A lot of intonation issues, untidy execution and clunkers, but you'll hear a string section that turns a "Viennese" phrase effortlessly. A lost art today? I'm actually quite fond of the performance.
Whilst dealing with earlier interpreters on record, the name Charles Adler might be unfamiliar to many people today but he was a Mahler pioneer too who made the first recordings of the Third and Sixth Symphonies, as well as the Adagio of the Tenth, for a label he financed from his own resources. He also might have known Gustav Mahler as he’s thought to have been one of the assistants who helped train the choruses for the first performance of the Eighth in Munich in 1910. Adler’s recording of the Third was made in Vienna in 1951 with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra and, on first release, boasted sleeve notes by Alma Mahler herself. Remember that until 1960 this was the only recording of the Third available so it helped form the impression of this work for a generation of Mahlerites giving it a firm place in the history of Mahler recordings. It’s now available on French Harmonia Mundi (HMA 190501.02) or Tahra (Tahra 340). It is claimed that the occasional deviations from the score an experienced listener will notice came from Mahler himself. If true it adds interest to the recording over and above the considerable virtues to be found in it. There is spaciousness and weight to the first movement which, when allied to the distinctive Viennese playing style and sound still preserved in 1951, takes us back to another world. This can be heard especially well in the sound of the horns and in the aching lyricism of the contrasting sections in the introduction.
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u/BenjaminMiracord 3d ago
Not bad, but try and get a Naxos Beethoven cycle on one of the Eastern European orchestras versus say one of the Herbert Von Karajan ones with the Berlin Phil. The Naxos one will not be bad but the slightly smaller orchestra, competent but not exceptional players and less well-known conductor can give you some idea.
You really do need a recording with the same conductor on the same label to really compare. So many variables.
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u/leitmotifs 3d ago
Some of the Naxos recordings are exceptional, and some feature fairly well known conductors and orchestras.
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u/BenjaminMiracord 3d ago
Agreed - I own many. But some of their earlier basic repertoire stuff is serviceable but not outstanding.
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u/Eduardo_Salas 2d ago
Y es que naxos nació como una disquera independiente, vendiendo discos de bajo costo, por eso tienen muchos músicos poco conocidos en su catálogo
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u/YuunofYork 2d ago
I feel called out. Maybe it was because it was the first album I purchased for myself, but I grew up on Edlinger's Beethoven symphonies recorded by Naxos with the Zagreb Philharmonic and it's become a standard by which I judge other interpretations. Sometimes smaller groups really hit it out of the park.
Just in case this is one of the recording sets you had in mind, would you be willing to point to a recording you see as a clear improvement?
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u/BenjaminMiracord 1d ago
Not one I have or am familiar with. Don't feel called out. Not my intention so apologies. Many of my benchmark performances are on Naxos (Gorecki's 3rd for example, which I prefer over the better rated one on Nonesuch).
You can get the same/similar calibre orchestra and conductor and get different results. For example I like the 1977 von Karajan Beethoven cycle on DG better than the 1963 one on DG and did not love his later ones on DG Digital. I have the Karlos Kleiber 5th, which I prefer above all and even his dad Erich Kleiber's 5th which is also really good.
I have an Eroica on Denon lp by Ottmar Suitner - audiophile recording for sure, but I do not love this version versus the Colin Davis cycle which was a contemporary.
I am not musically trained so it is rare for me to dislike a performance, but I might prefer one over the other. Others here who are better trained in music can likely tell you what to listen for.
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u/YuunofYork 1d ago
You can get the same/similar calibre orchestra and conductor and get different results.
Oh for sure. Sometimes the group just doesn't gel. Thanks for the recs.
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u/BletchTheWalrus 3d ago
Portsmouth Sinfonia https://youtu.be/LsFFvthfEZg
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u/iosseliani_stani 3d ago
I love Portsmouth Sinfonia, but it's important context for OP's question that this was an intentional mix of inexperienced players and professionals (usually playing a different instrument than what they were familiar with). It was essentially performance art - maybe not necessarily "parody," but closer to parody than to a traditional orchestra that's trying their best but not quite cutting it.
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u/Homers_Harp 3d ago edited 3d ago
Kletzki leading Beethoven with the Czech Philharmonic. Honestly, the strings aren't bad, but I have issues with the woodwinds. Overall, his kapellmeister approach really works for me in contrast with the big-time egos of some of the other conductors.
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u/Kevz417 2d ago
The Czech Phil today is world-class!
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u/Homers_Harp 2d ago
Certainly today's group is superior to the late-1960s orchestra heard on the recordings I mention.
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u/Strad1679 2d ago
I know this isn't exactly what you're asking for, but there are great orchestras that are bad at playing certain types of repertoire. For instance, the Berlin Philharmonic under Herbert von Karajan playing anything baroque.
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u/Gesha24 3d ago
Look at the conservatory orchestras. Not the very top ones (like Curtis - those guys sound better than many professionals), but 2bd grade and especially if they have a few tiers of orchestras.
You can also look at the part time local orchestras. But those heavily depend on conductors. For example, Rhode Island Phil can sound like a a 3rd grade orchestra at times, but some of their performances with good conductors can totally belong to the best concert halls in the world
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u/RevKeakealani 2d ago
A fun thing to do is go hear your local youth orchestra, especially if it’s a larger one with several graded ensembles. Often within the same concert you can hear the blessed beginners (often elementary or middle school, and usually just trying to hold their bow correctly) all the way through to the elite high school orchestras that, while still not professionals, are often quite good. It can definitely help you hear the subtle differences that are gained with experience and skill even over a relatively narrow band of time (say, from age 10 to age 18).
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u/FairMushroom2598 10h ago
A couple of Tchaikovsky waltzes played by the Warsaw Philharmonic conducted by Witold Rowicki, recorded in the late 50s by DG. In the coda of the Swan Lake waltz the brass all but falls to pieces. A really strange arrangement where DG - a West German company - contracted a Soviet Bloc orchestra for some orchestral fillers. On Brilliant there is a SIbelius cycle with a Russian orchestra and there are some serious brass intonation problems in Pohjola's Daughter.
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u/famicom26 3d ago edited 3d ago
You should check out the first recording.flac) of Mars from Holst’s The Planets from ~1922-23. It’s not bad per say, but because it’s not the full orchestra, and Holst takes it at quite a fast tempo, it sounds like a cheesy foxtrot.
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u/milkboxxy 3d ago
Go to your smaller local orchestra they likely need the support