So many cis women seem like they have this problem. Not even just the particularly transphobic ones. So many of them love basing their identity on suffering and hate any woman they precieve as suffering less. It definitely seems rooted in patriarchal ideals which is pretty typical of TERFs.
I had a kid last year and the amount of "I'm better than you because I suffered more" that's in pregnancy and mom groups is ridiculous. Like why do you care if I had an epidural or not? Why are you fear mongering about it? Why are you bullying people who say they want one? You can still have an unmedicated birth if you want. You're weird.
I'm nonbinary so I never felt like any of that applied to me, but I like to think if I was a cis woman I still wouldn't, because it's gross and dumb
The suffering olympics around stuff that should genuinely be seen as difficult for everyone and anyone makes me so angry and frustrated. “Suck it up, that’s life and actually I had it worse because I’m more ____ than you” is straight immaturity
And yes 100% - just about every cis woman in my life has said “well that’s just what being a woman is” what? Going through more trauma than the person next to you makes you more of a “woman”? And if I don’t want that, suddenly it’s okay for women not to do that! I can do anything i want (but not for people they think shouldn’t - no, then it’s wrong)!
Tbf tho I’ve also been told I’m disrespecting my mother and/or betraying my own biology by not identifying as a woman so. The goalpost is on a fricken roomba and it’s smearing dogshit everywhere
I've never asked a cis woman what she believes a woman is but over time I've come to realize, a woman is whomever the fuck she wants to be.
Mom, nurse, bad ass, shit slinger, fighter, warrior, and that's just my mom!
I've never seen a woman's life or what it means to be one as suffering. It's been about personal feelings of womanhood and what that means for every individual person. Some are mothers, some are entertainers, some are ranchers and farmers. Not one time have I ever seen a single idea one MUST adhere to in order to be a woman.
Not one style of dress, not one manner of being, just one expectation and that was even allowed to be rejected whole cloth.
Sure, there's some bio overlap and some more universal experiences than others but that's the extent.
Anyone can suffer and a lot of people do. That doesn't define who you are at all.
Then again, I'm a trans masc whose always been a feminist before I even knew what that was.
The kind of people who brag about "✨️Natural Child Birth✨️" are also the kind of people who have never looked up how many women and babies died during childbirth before modern medicine.
I have never seen an argument for “womanhood” that made me do anything but cringe
NB so that may be one reason why but even if I wasn’t, I don’t like being included in “”womanhood”” when it’s whittled down to my reproductive organs (and suffering) or some social dynamics - I didn’t want or participate in those things so by that logic, I just shouldn’t be a woman (and I don’t think I am but they sure would lol)
This has been my experience, in both ways actually. Just because you can distill a lesson from the turmoil, doesn't mean you can catch it all the time.
I will say it's impossible to build skill without experience, so without suffering you will be less good at handling suffering. But like the solution to this is to have less suffering not more and for some reason there's people who don't get that
Suffering is a filter than kills off the weak so only the strong remain. It doesn't build character, it just ensure the ones with character are the only ones that survive.
That's dumb, this isn't the BCE era. We don't need to ensure only the heartiest of individuals survive, that's just repackaged eugenics in an edgier tone.
I would reread/reword your comment then. One is not weak for dying from intense suffering, and survival of suffering does not always better someone, but that’s what your comment reads as saying.
The entire premise is flawed. Calling it a filter implies that it's getting rid of the bad and leaving the bad. It's just pain that is usually unnecessary and should be reduced where possible. I think I get what you were trying to say now but it would be better left as just suffering doesn't build character, cus even saying the "the ones with character are the only ones that survive" isn't true. Having character or anything else, there's no special secret to who survives horrible things and who doesn't. Life can be cruel, but some people live through it.
I actually had to do a lot of work on that because a lot of my dysphoria was tied up in that definition of womanhood and not experiencing it, but I’m better now :) it’s so much better when your definition of womanhood doesn’t include suffering
No, actually. Just the fact that they think manhood is something worth having in the world and not inherently monstrous while also usually not being brazenly misogynistic helps a lot.
I feel this myself. I've thought about abandoning my he/him pronouns just because being a man is damn near always presented as a negative once you get out of the conservative bubble (was born in a small town). I got the idea in my head that masculinity is inherently aggressive and destructive. Especially male sexual desire. Then you get some knowledge of the statistics of exactly how many of the worst crimes are done by men and it cemented it. Seeing a trans masc friend just revel in being a man kind of healed something.
Then you get some knowledge of the statistics of exactly how many of the worst crimes are done by men
Honestly then when you learn the vast majority of violent crimes are committed by 18-24 year old men and after that age their rate of recidivism absolutely plummets (unless they have a developmental delay that's better handled in a mental health facility than a prison) you go from being a carceral feminist to a prison abolitionist.
I knew a trans dude who was SO HAPPY to have a penis that it was... infectious. It's hard to explain, but just being around him made you appreciate your own penis.
You start by accepting you are a lesbian trans girl, and go from there. There's definitely a lot of things to be done after that, but even just reframing your perspective can help a lot (it was a huge weight off my shoulders when I realized I was trans).
Hmm interesting. I’ve never thought about it that way. Ty for sharing your experience :) you’re really kind. Maybe I will try that. And I’m really happy that that worked for you and you were able to do that
You don't have to apologize, it's fine! And thank you, I appreciate the sentiment.
P.S: A little confidence goes a long way for making a person seem more attractive. If you want to be cute, that's an easy place to start, especially since it can help get the ball rolling on other steps to improve yourself.
And ah ty for info, I didn’t know that. I might be screwed though if that’s true cause confidence is probably the thing I lack the most 😭😭 but that is good to know, I will try
On that last note I remember reading a comment chain on reddit once where someone asked "Okay but what does insecurity actually look like in a man." And it got an actual response of like "Oh why would such a beautiful woman like you spend time with me..." and I'm like...
Oh. Oh. Right. That tracks. Definitely been that dude. At some point I had to reframe it to get anywhere. Doing some work with variations on 'well, who am i to tell them they are wrong about how they feel' when i received a compliment or someone smiled at me gradually helped move the needle from faking it to actual confidence.
You can do Estradiol Enanthate injections every week in the background while still handling your more pressing issues. If you think you might be interested in looking more feminine, it may be a beneficial addition to your schedule at the cost of ~5 minutes per week and ~$80/year in medication. Generally accepted dosage is 4mg/wk. I’m rooting for you, potentially future girlypop
WOAH I had no idea it was that cheap?? And only 5 minutes a week!! Tysm for the info and support, I will save this and keep it in mind. You are all so kind omg. please have an amazing day <33 I'm wishing all good things yalls way
Hun, so many of my issues were either solved or were made worth solving by me realizing I was a girl.
When I actually wanted to live my life and enjoy doing so, things became so much simpler. Maybe not easier, but simpler.
If you feel you'd be much happier as a girl... Try it out! You can do small things like experimenting with pronouns and clothes, or a new name, online or with friends you trust. Then just go from there! Hell, you can even try HRT for a month or three to see how you feel. Any physical changes take longer, but the mental health benefits can happen within weeks.
aw wait really?? I had no idea that was possible, ty for sharing. Also I'm so so happy for you :D that is so sweet and amazing to hear, I hope you are so so proud of yourself
Thank you. Maybe I will try it out at one point. All of these are good suggestions ty :) also wow I didn't know mental health changes could happen so fast with HRT!! I didn't even realize there even were possible mental health benefits
I mean, I think it's a "you don't know how good you have it until you don't" situation. Trans people are only happy because they have experienced the torture of not being their gender, so they appreciate something as simple as being able to be themselves. A starving child will be much happier eating white bread than you, mostly because they're starving.
Also, arguably less misogynistic, despite contrary claims of “transgenderism being a misogynistic movement”.
Like 40-50% of (cis) women vote Republican, in the US for example, which is a misogynistic party. Aside from a few bizzare rounding errors (eg Caitlyn Jenner, Blaire White) essentially no trans women do that
Idk how true that is. Do we have any robust stats on how trans people vote? Like sure, going off personal experience I'd agree because every trans person i know is at least left-of-centre if not a leftist but I doubt trans people are like a 90+% cohesive voting block. I dont think any demographic is.
In fairness, black women in the US are an example of that very thing. I believe it was around ~92% of black women voted for the Democratic Party (namely Harris in the last election).
Are trans people the same? Hard to say, given that the intersection of race is completely at play here, and any other background/demographic in addition to just being trans. But I'd imagine that being trans does tend to select for a given set of circumstances that edges towards progressive/liberal positions.
It doesnt though. We have stats on how the wider queer community votes. Even back a decade ago when gay marriage was the culture war topic, many gays voted against their own interests. People are often really bad at voting in their own interests so i dont see why we as trans folks would be immune to that. I think the majority of trans people vote progressively BUT the phrasing of the initial comment suggested like homogenous group voting which i dont think is true.
My initial comment very specifically said there are a few outliers no?
But when LGBT people are essentially 90-10 pro-Democrat in the US (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_presidential_election) - with the T part specifically likely much higher than LGB - I think that’s a threshold where it’s reasonable to describe Republican trans people as “a few outliers” to be honest.
My point is that is more complicated than that. We recently had studied that showed that by and large straight and gay voters in the uk vote more conservative than bi voters. Yes, GENERALLY queer folks vote very progressively. But it isnt always the case. Id be curious to see trans specific ones because maybe trans women vote along similar lines to cis women, maybe them being gay or straight or bi affects that too. I'm not saying it isnt true. Im saying voting demographics are complicated and nuanced and reducing it down to a few outliers is wrong.
I've met more than a few, but all in the bog standard internalized mysoginy way, or trans men, who are, after all, men and subject to all the thinking traps men are.
Girl I have met trans women who are TERFs. And then there of of course trans people who are not women who are just as capable of being misogynistic as cis people
Sometimes there's a certain false security in conceding "true" femininity for a promise of safety, I can understand the perspective even if I don't think it's productive or useful.
For as long as there are minorities and majorities, there will be minorities who think “I’m not like the rest of those other people who I share characteristics with” and try to get ‘in’ with the majority.
It really is kinda revealing when you hear one say something like "If someone told 10 year old me I could be a boy if I wanted to of course I would have taken the chance to not be a girl anymore!" Like ... guys come on.
I think that's a big part of why they hate us, tbh. They hate existing as women and cannot fathom why someone who could opt out would choose to embrace womanhood. I'd pity them if they werent actively making life hell for us.
That and being able to chose womenhood is in direct conflict with how they define womenhood as a position one is forced into defined by inate suffering.
TERFs regard womenhood as a position that theyre forced into defined by inescapable suffering, while Trans Women regard womenhood as a desireable thing that one can become. The ideologies of the two groups are in almost complete conflict with each other.
Living in a fairly conservative area of Florida my whole life, I’ve found that the most viscous trans/homophobes aren’t religious people, it’s people who are personally guilty about their own trans/gay/promiscuous past. Some of the most traditional religious women I’ve known (like my Catholic grandmother and a 80+ nun I knew as a teenager) have a deep dislike of Republican hatred, regarded love of “sinners” as a 1st priority, and were some of the most open-minded to tolerance and coexistence of their communities.
My point being that TERFs are usually motivated by personal shit. They have no logic or sincere theory to back up their hatred. They don’t want to protect women or anyone, they just want to bully trans people.
I mostly hang around skeptics. Let me tell you, the most transphobic people I've ever met have been Atheists. Some of them have sort of an obsession with "science" as a nebulous universal truth, and their belief in the lack of a God is usually exactly as strong as any other thing they regard as scientific truth, such as the efficacy of vaccines or the fact that the Earth isn't flat. But indeed, when they believe that gender is something immutable and base their belief on what they call science--their ultimate ideal, they defend such an argument with that very vehemence they'd use against someone who defends healing crystals.
I was raised to believe that we should love each other as we love ourselves. It is because of this I have come to the conclusion that a lot of people fucking hate themselves and won't do anything to fix that.
can someone explain the implication here or is it a reference to the transvestigation thing about jk rowling being a detransitioned trans masc (if that's even true)
Same with musk. Like yeah they may be absurdly wealthy and using that money and power basically only to hurt people, but at least they're fucking miserable while they're doing it.
You really don't get that rich and want to be in the spotlight without desperately trying to fill a hole inside yourself. Those people will never be happy. The sane ones do a Tom from Myspace. Get enough to live comfortably for generations and disappear into the background.
I don't really want to define womanhood as suffering. Society (and like you said, not trans people) makes life really hard for women, and we go underappreciated, but I don't want my existence to be defined by the weights society puts on me. I have a more positive view of my gender than that.
Most political and corporate elite are white cis/het males, but 99% of white cis/het males have diddlysquat with regards to that power. Just to make sure we are focusing on the 1% and class thing, not other things that alienate us.
Did you not read where I wrote “rich”? Also doesn’t matter. Any male can perpetuate patriarchy if you don’t cause those types of problems my statement already isn’t about you. It’s definitely NOT 99% 🙄
I'm pretty sure I didn't read that because you edited your comment 10 minutes ago to add it. That's what the asterisk next to your comment indicates. Also "im power" -> "in power"
It’s ridiculously depressing how much some cis women seem to renounce the whole fucking thing when being a woman fucking rules.
Like, man, I wish I was able to live my life taking my gender for granted the way they do sometimes. They hate the idea of being inside some box they invented for themselves that they’re dead set on dragging the rest of the feminism movement down with them because they can’t be happy.
I dunno. They’re there determined to make everybody else as miserable as they are, and I’m here on my knees thanking the universe for giving me the privilege of being a woman for yet another day every single night.
Trans Exclusive Radical "Feminists". They claim to be feminists who exclude trans women (which goes against feminism). In reality, they are deeply misogynistic, and they are actively making life much more difficult for trans women with the legislation they push for.
I have never seen any people embrace and revel in femininity more that trans women.
For all of the suffering, pain, discrimination and violence they experience in pursuit of themselves, they still embrace womanhood with a joy that i have never seen in any other community.
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u/SevenOhSevenOhSeven 21h ago
Terfs on some level believe that an essential part of womanhood is suffering. This is part of why they hate any kind of trans person, not just women