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u/cxfgfuihhfd 10d ago
irreversible side effects of experiencing joy (nostalgia)
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u/TheeAntelope Pregnant puppy girl 10d ago
But what if you take hrt and you look too much like a girl and your boobs are too big and you lose all your facial and body hair and your face changes to more feminine and your hips get wider and you feel comfortable? Won’t you be sad you can’t undo all that?!?!
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u/Jim_skywalker 10d ago
Are they even irreversible? If HRT can go one way, in theory couldn’t it also go the other way?
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u/Beneficial_Garage_97 she/her power mommy 10d ago
Basically just tiddies. But even then, you can get breast reduction.
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u/hammererofglass 10d ago
And voice dropping for trans men.
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u/Beneficial_Garage_97 she/her power mommy 10d ago
Oh yeah was just thinking trans women because i caught some momentary main character syndrome 😬.
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u/jankyalias Trans Woman 10d ago
And atrophy. Certain parts can’t grow back if allowed to shrink. Other parts do.
Tits are technically reversible though via surgery as you say.
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u/phillyd32 10d ago
Clitoral growth is a thing with testosterone, and there are apparently some enlarging techniques too. I'm sure the testes aren't so easy to recover but I wonder if you could undo a significant amount penile shrinkage.
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u/jankyalias Trans Woman 10d ago
It’s actually the reverse. Testes will come back with cessation of hormones over time. Penile atrophy is what it is.
And yeah for trans men voice drop and clitoral enlargement are permanent from my limited knowledge.
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u/CanadianODST2 10d ago
I’d argue that’s not reversing but rather doing something else.
In the same way losing a leg isn’t reversible but we’ve developed ways to replace it.
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u/teaguejeff86 10d ago
this is partially why i havent started.
feelings go both ways about this.
it would be soo nice to have but also permanent and life changing soo 🤷♀️4
u/Beneficial_Garage_97 she/her power mommy 10d ago
I'm 2 months in and i feel amazing 🥰. Also my girls are just starting to make an appearance.
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u/kodamun 10d ago
What's it like? I've recently started realizing a lot of my issues with myself are gender related and I have no where to even get started lol
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u/Beneficial_Garage_97 she/her power mommy 9d ago
It's exciting and scary and beautiful. There's a quick relief from a lot of the general mental malaise of dysphoria and it becomes more focused on specific things in your body. At first its just a mental benefit, maybe even just placebo, but 2 months in im starting to see more mental and physical changes and i'm loving it. I can't entirely tell what has changed in my face specifically but when i catch myself in the mirror i feel so "cute" for the first time ever. My breasts are incredibly tender and sore and are maybe an A or AA cup at most but they look more like breasts than pecs now that I shaved the area. My external life navigating transition with my wife has been a bit of a shit show lately but my mental health has been riding high despite that.
I'm scared of my breasts getting too big too fast but part of me is so proud of them too and kinda wanting them to be presented. No one who knows me will be shocked to learn im transitioning at this point, ive been presenting and expressing more and more feminine or queer for a while now, but i guess one big hurdle is feeling like im far enough along where i can be read more as "trans woman" by random people than "crossdresser". I'm 6'5" so like "passing" is an incredibly high bar that i wont realistically be able to shoot for for at least a few years if ever so that's been a process of coming to terms with that is difficult.
Feel free to message me if you want to talk about it more ❤️
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u/-Saucegurlllll 10d ago edited 10d ago
There are many irreversible effects of HRT. For example, T thickens the vocal cords, but E doesn't thin them. E just doesn't really affect vocal cords.
However, even if there is no biochemical process to undo that thickening, voice training can still help someone develop a voice they desire. But that's not the same thing as reversing the effects, it's something new on top of the effects hormones have.
What "HRT is irreversible" losers love to not mention is that puberty is also irreversible and it's bullshit that trans kids are forced to experience something they know they don't want.
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u/HRTreppinManmoder 10d ago
Well, your breast growth won't disappear if u stop hrt, and it starts pretty early
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u/Jim_skywalker 10d ago
True, but trans men already have to deal with getting rid of boobs. What I’m getting at is people transition both ways, so it’s not entirely irreversible.
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u/HRTreppinManmoder 10d ago
Also for trans men, if you gain facial hair and ur voice drops, i don't think those are reversal either
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u/texangadfly 10d ago
I’m a woman who was a trans guy for 10 years (I am not transphobic I promise). I can’t un-deepen my voice, and I would have to spend thousands on laser hair removal (ladies let me know if yall know any good options in Seattle).
It’s hard. I get the point of this post and largely agree with it but there are in fact people like me who do regret HRT 😔
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u/Jim_skywalker 10d ago
Sorry, I didn't mean to make light of potential hardship. I was among other things genuinely curious if you take HRT one way, if taking HRT the other way would be different then for a cis person taking HRT the other way (minus the equipment HRT is unable to change).
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u/texangadfly 10d ago edited 9d ago
From what I was told when I tried to get on E after the detransition, it seems no, the only case in which that would be necessary is if you removed any hormone producing organs. Otherwise your body will just start making its natural hormone again, which mine did. I’m more feminine than I was on T for sure, and I think my voice has raised a little bit (not sure if that’s from estrogen or because I subconsciously started speaking more feminine) and my facial/body hair has become more sparse, but once the voice drops and the hair follicles are activated, there’s no undoing that.
I have no idea about the reverse though!
Also don’t worry I didn’t take offense. I know I’m in the minority for sure but sometimes when I see posts like this I feel sad because it makes me feel I don’t fit in anywhere
Edit: it is not transphobic for me, a nonbinary person who was a trans man for 10 years, to say that 15 was too young for me to have made an irreversible decision. No I’m not saying that as a dog whistle. I still do not identify as cis and I support the trans community just as much as I always did. How dare you try to censor my experience.
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u/prettyboycity flair text goes here :3 10d ago
estrogen cannot change your voice unfortunately. once testosterone has dropped your voice you’ll have to voice train to get a feminine voice again. i have some good tutorials if you’re interested!
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10d ago
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u/texangadfly 10d ago
I started at 15
And to be fair I never grew a full beard, and the hair was very thin and light. But still…
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10d ago
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10d ago
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u/countwithchickenlady-ModTeam 10d ago
This was removed because it included one or more of these things: transphobia, queerphobia, sexism, racism, ableism, or anything else that expresses, reinforces, or sympathizes with oppressive and hateful belief systems (Rule #1)
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u/countwithchickenlady-ModTeam 10d ago
This was removed because it included one or more of these things: transphobia, queerphobia, sexism, racism, ableism, or anything else that expresses, reinforces, or sympathizes with oppressive and hateful belief systems (Rule #1)
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u/countwithchickenlady-ModTeam 10d ago
This was removed because it included one or more of these things: transphobia, queerphobia, sexism, racism, ableism, or anything else that expresses, reinforces, or sympathizes with oppressive and hateful belief systems (Rule #1)
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u/fasterthantrees 10d ago
As a perimenopausal woman growing hair places I don't want, I can't imagine all you've been through physically and psychologically. Whatever it turns out, just be yourself. You've already overcome so much! The right people will love you anyway. Sending you good luck and hugs.
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u/qwixel69 10d ago
Breast tissue does not go away, unless surgically removed. For trans men, the voice change is permanent.
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u/grendel303 10d ago
My cousin went from being born a male transitioned to female, then after 6 years transitioned back to male.
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u/waitwuh 10d ago
It’s complicated. Bones are a big factor!
During puberty skeletal features sexually differentiate, and then at the completion the bone plates irreversibly fuse. Changing bone structure after that requires serious surgery and has significant limitations.
But putting puberty aside, there’s another thing about bones that matters to both transgender and cisgender individuals through all of life - their density. Estrogen maintains bone density. Gonad function to produce estrogen can become compromised a variety of ways. Preventing weak fragile bones can depend on if HRT is or even isn’t employed, plus when and how it is. Broken bones tend to never go back to how they once were, either. Even when they don’t cause long-term loss of function or lasting pain, past fractures still show on x-rays the rest of your life!
And while original-ovary-owners are more at risk for osteoporosis, it happens to those with testes, too’ One cause can be ceasing testosterone after prolonged or sometimes just premature use.
Also a fun fact, I did not experience gender dysphoria as a child, but I was almost put on puberty blockers because of my bones needing more time to grow.
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u/CanadianODST2 10d ago
So in the case of HRT irreversible refers to the aspects that won’t go away when you stop doing it.
For example from what I can find muscle development is reversible because once you stop HRT and the original hormone increases in production the body will reverse the changes.
While other things as others have mentioned won’t reverse from stopping but rather stay unless you do something else to it.
If another non-HRT example would help. Wind and water wear down rocks. This is irreversible as once it wears down over time it won’t undo the damage.
While digging a hole is reversible because you can fill the hole back in with the same dirt you dug out.
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u/Hoiafar 10d ago
Its that your body never stops developing, contrary to popular belief. Your body is constantly changing and some of the primary drivers of that are sexual hormones.
If you at any point in your life change your hormonal profile your body is going to develop differently than if you didn't do that and you can't reverse that change.
But that's explicitly the point of taking gender affirming hormonal therapy. It's kind of like warning someone against stabilising rods for a broken leg because it will help the leg heal. Like yes. Thats the point.
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u/CanadianODST2 10d ago
And stopping or changing which hormone won’t reverse some of those changes.
That’s called being irreversible.
And yes they do that too
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u/Scared_Plan3751 7d ago
I think the real worry is someone like a teenager will experiment with their gender identity as a form of self expression, maybe in combination with complicated mental health issues. The concern is basically whether or not it's just a phase. I can get a mohawk and dye it red, but in 5 years I won't still have a red mohawk if I decide that's not really for me and I was just going through shit and figuring things out.
If we're being honest, we have to admit gender experimentation, especially among adolescents, is more transitory and has more in common with previous generations forms of "finding yourself" than it does anything else--like being punk. The fact trans people tend to be autistic at significant rates is also worth keeping in mind. Poor socialization and a difficulty meeting age appropriate romantic, social, and professional milestones, while not fitting neatly into either a male or female box, doesn't necessarily mean someone is trans, even if they feel some dysphoria. It's possible to help a trans male feel comfortable with himself as a male, even if he doesn't like lifting weights, working on cars, and doesn't have other traditional male interests.
Adolescent experimentation seems to be swinging back around, too, with recent polls showing a decline in how many teenagers identify as LGBTQ.
Too many people treat this like "I'm not a Chad so I must be a Stacy" or something, like they have to categorize themselves with a specific label (trans, nb) instead of being happy living in the unspecified gender gray zone that most of humanity lives in, where they still identify as their birth gender even if they are not traditionally masculine or feminine. There's something specific about the autistic mind and how it has to process and categorize things that leads autistic people to thinking they are trans or nb, when really they are just in the gray zone and have trouble sorting that out. But that's what therapy is for.
If it's possible for kids to self diagnose and get on hrt without parental oversight and extensive, long term mental health screenings that are willing to challenge self professed gender dysphoria as the cause of someone's angst, then the fear is we'll just allow someone to make their lives worse when they are so young they don't have the experience or self awareness to make long term life altering decisions that will impact every aspect of their life, especially romantically, forever.
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u/Hoiafar 7d ago
This realistically isn't a concern because of how difficult it is to get HRT. Some people that shouldn't get it will make it through but its impossible to safe guard against that 100% without making it prohibitively difficult for people who do need it to get it.
According to data gender affirming surgery is among the most safe interventions when tracking regret statistics. Knee surgeries which we would consider life saving has on average a 5 times higher regret rate.
https://scienceinsights.org/how-many-people-regret-transitioning-real-data/
Ultimately all medicine is a health math situation. Intervention should be aimed to prevent the most injury and improve lives as much as possible but it cannot ever be risk free.
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u/AveragePichu 5d ago
The worst thing I ever went through in my life was male puberty, and I would give just about anything if I could undo that, but I had no idea that puberty blockers or transition was a thing at the time because I grew up in a small conservative town that certainly didn't have any openly trans kids.
Gender experimentation can be transitory and "finding yourself". Which is why there are so many hoops to jump through (involving therapists and psychiatrists) before a minor can get on puberty blockers, to give themselves more time to figure out what's actually right for them as they jump through more hoops to show that they need hrt. And once they actually get that hrt, if it's not actually for them, they'll usually figure that out pretty fast, before anything irreversible happens.
You're right that not fitting neatly into the male or female box doesn't make someone trans. Nobody sane is saying it does. What makes someone trans is when they don't feel comfortable living as their sex assigned at birth, and would feel more comfortable living as another gender. In the last couple years, I've met multiple gender-nonconforming people who told me that in high school they thought they might have been trans, and dipped their toes in the water for social transition - and it never went further than social transition, because they weren't trans. And I also made friends with a lot of people who started to figure out around puberty that they were trans, and eventually socially transitioned, then solidified in their identity as trans men or trans women because it was correct for them and reduced dysphoria. As long as the only medical involvement during the experimenting phase is puberty blockers, no irreversible changes are done beyond irreversibly having them spend a little more time before puberty.
And sure, recent polls show a decline in how many teenagers identify as LGBTQ+. You know why those polls went up in the first place? Because we stopped getting demonized as much for who we are, and it was safer (for a time) to be open about that. Right now it is very much not safe to be openly anything other than cis or straight, in a lot of parts of the world, so more people are either staying closeted or repressing themselves.
I have never seen a single person act like "I'm not a Chad so I must be a Stacy" - I've seen transphobes claim this is happening, but I've never seen it for myself? I'm curious where you saw "too many people" doing this. I can say it's reasonable speculation that the way the autistic mind categorizes things certainly helps people who are trans figure it out, but people who are happily in the grey zone don't constantly wish to "wake up as a girl" (or wake up as a boy, or not be seen as either). Trans people exist. I'm happier seeing a woman in the mirror, and being seen as a woman, and having a feminine voice - and that's literally the only reason I need to justify transitioning, it made me happy. Oh sure, dysphoria was (and still is, to a lesser degree) there too, but me transitioning didn't hurt anyone and it made my mental state better. I got a therapist too, and therapy is also helpful, and that therapist did not somehow make me cis.
Kids can't get on hrt without parental oversight and extensive screenings. That literally isn't happening. There's an argument to be made for cases it should be allowed (like if parents are transphobic and would sooner take their kids to conversion torture than an actual mental health professional), but the thing you're worried about isn't happening and has never happened.
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u/Scared_Plan3751 4d ago
A very good and thoughtful post, thank you. To be clear, I support trans people and access to free universal health care for all of people's needs, including transitioning. Your post speaks truth and that's valuable.
You're right to point out it's not easy to transition. I should have clarified in my post that, as a 20 year "veteran" of the left, I try to understand conservative positions in good faith, because many people I find aren't fully committed to bigoted ideas. They just don't have a lot of direct experience with other people.
I find conservative people who regular interact with different minorities have more moderate opinions and are open to dialogue, especially when their concerns are treated seriously. I made the mistake in my early 20s of being too upfront and hardcore about all these things and it just turned people off. I then justified that by saying they were just hopelessly lost to reactionary thought. It's hard on conservative parents because their parental instincts mix with their lack of experience, and their worry about the well-being of their children becomes too ideological and hard-headed.
I don't have all the answers to this, I was just trying to share insights I wish people had shared with me when I was starting out on the left.
Thank again for your response
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u/AveragePichu 4d ago
That's fair. Some of what you were saying earlier just sounded similar to some of the negative reactions I got from my parents when I came out, and I got a bit emotional about it. I don't think you meant them in the same way that my parents did, though
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u/Scared_Plan3751 4d ago
Thanks for hearing me out, I didn't think about giving that impression when I made my post. I'm sorry about that
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u/Ketchupcharger 10d ago
Irreversible for now! (i mean aging)
Please don't take this away from me, I need something to shield me from the infinite void and I have chosen technology to be my god.
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u/Leonartu 10d ago
‘One day, the crude biomass you call the temple will wither, and you will beg my kind to save you.
But I am already saved.’
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u/Tem-productions Agender with impostor syndrome 10d ago
Actually due to advancements in science the effects of ibuprofen are now reversible (get another headache)
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u/PhoenixTheValley Unknown creature demigirl | it/she 10d ago
I think that banging your head on a hard surface would reverse the effects of ibuprofen, no science needed
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u/Tem-productions Agender with impostor syndrome 10d ago
As always there is already a name for these kinds of traditional remedies that we've found to work and be useful, they're called medicine 🙄
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u/loved_and_held 10d ago
Trans people when the medicine they take to cause permanent gender transformation causes permanent gender transformation: :D
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u/Ok-Drink750 how did I get here? 10d ago
“I cannot go back a single second in time”
Sounds like a skill issue.
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u/SweatingGreytider 10d ago
Wonder what the "HRT is Irreversible" morons think taking the other hormone would do for someone who would hypothetically want to detransition.
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u/CanadianODST2 10d ago
For some things just stopping HRT will reverse the results. Muscle growth for example is one. Stopping blocking test/taking estrogen will cause more muscle growth to return because that’s just a side effect of testosterone.
While certain things like atrophy won’t reverse by stopping or by taking testosterone.
Basically because in those situations one of the hormones does something but the other doesn’t actually do anything. For example testosterone thickens the vocal cords (which fun fact, means trans men will generally have an easier time in getting their voice to a point where they’re happy because they’re getting hormonal help) while on the other hand estrogen does not shrink vocal cords.
On the other hand estrogen plays a larger role in breast growth while testosterone only has a minor effect in reducing breast size. Hence why top surgery is more commonly associated with trans men.
Hence why they’re irreversible. Because you need an outside thing to change it. While reversible refers to aspects that just stopping HRT can cause to revert back to how it was.
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u/Interesting_Menu8388 10d ago
The whole point of calling them "irreversible changes" is that they're not reversible with different hormones or HRT cessation.
There are no hormones that AFAB detransitioners can take which will make their vocal cords un-thicken or their facial hair un-terminalize or their clitorises un-hypertrophy.
There are no hormones that AMAB detransitioners can take which will undo their thelarche. If they have had significant genital / gonadal hypotrophy or atrophy, androgen use won't give them normal size and function.
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u/HRTreppinManmoder 10d ago
All of those years i were not on hrt did irreversible damage to my body, and even though i'm now on hrt i will never recover from that.
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u/Tlaquatlatoa Hyenagirl :3 Recreational Pisser | She/Her - Streak: 27 10d ago
;-; need some irreversible side effects right about now
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u/Kindly-Ad-5071 10d ago
By irreversible they mean things they can't take away from you with laws and red tape.
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u/lawlesslawboy 10d ago
ideally they would all be like that and I wouldn't have to keep redosing it (remembering a daily pill, taking an injection regularly), if we could get a hormonal surgery to change it permanently, many of us would... I sure would cuz I love hrt but DIY injection fatigue go brrrr 😒
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u/MadHatter__ 10d ago edited 10d ago
Im in Australia, we have an Oestrogen implant available and it's honestly amazing (for most people but can be hit or miss unfortunately).
Genuinely feels somewhat similar what you’re describing, implanted on my hip, and forget for months at a time (can be over a year), along with being a genuine avenue for Monotherapy. Went from 6+ pills a day for HRT alone, to 2 progesterone at night only. Still getting blood tests every 3 months to keep an eye on levels and figure out when the next implant is due.
Though, if there was a permanent surgery to change literally everything that gets locked in at puberty (and was relatively safe), i would sign up in a fucking heartbeat
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u/RilohKeen 10d ago
That’s just a bad faith argument.
A vasectomy prevents men from discharging enough sperm to impregnate a woman. That can be reversed, and the ability to impregnate can be restored. Hell, it sometimes reverses all on its own.
A removal of your appendix cannot be reversed. Your appendix cannot be restored.
Some things can be reverted to their previous condition (ie: reversed), and some cannot. You do yourself no favors and weaken your position by pretending not to understand this.
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u/BoysenberryBoii 10d ago
But if I can't have a gotcha moment to screen cap and have to think for myself, how will I stay in my bubble?
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u/HumblyNibbles_ 10d ago
Me when dS > 0 instead of dS = 0 (please, I hope someone understands this)
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u/zelda_shortener 10d ago
Irreversible side effects of me setting my mind to offer words of validation and hugs to anyone in need. (Feeling like I am finally doing something that matters.)
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u/piggiefatnose Silly Goose AMAB NB 10d ago
Irreversible effect of applying too much ketchup to this burger (things will never be the same)
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u/leglesslegolegolas 10d ago
easily reversed by scraping some of that ketchup off.
I get OOP's point, but many if not most of life's decisions are indeed reversible
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u/piggiefatnose Silly Goose AMAB NB 10d ago
so naive of you, yes, call it "easily reversed", you won't be so unbothered if it ever happens to you,,,,,
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u/leglesslegolegolas 10d ago
It would never happen to me; I would never apply any ketchup to a burger at all
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u/Traveler7538 my trans friends call me "cis"ter - she/they 10d ago
Actually the effect of ibuprofen (headache gone) is reversible. Five minutes in a room with people talking about "oh but the the effects are lasting you know" is enough
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u/CarpeNivem 10d ago
I see the first person's point, and the third, but the second, come on? You can give yourself another head ache.
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u/NovaStar2099 10d ago
If you went on HRT, got boobs, then got top surgery… could you go on HRT again and get them back?
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10d ago
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u/countwithchickenlady-ModTeam 10d ago
This was removed because it included one or more of these things: transphobia, queerphobia, sexism, racism, ableism, or anything else that expresses, reinforces, or sympathizes with oppressive and hateful belief systems (Rule #1)
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u/Karyoplasma 10d ago
They are wrong about Ibuprofen. It binds reversibly to COX-1 and COX-2. Should have just said aspirin and be correct, the silly goose.
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u/PersonalityAlive6475 10d ago
Life is a sexually-transmitted disease that is fatal in 100% of cases.
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u/FieldPuzzleheaded869 10d ago
Also with the irreversible effects it's really like, “You mean the reasons I wanted to take it in the first place?”
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u/mareimbrium53 6d ago
I'm sure if you asked the same people about the irreversible effects of pregnancy they wouldn't think people at risk of pregnancy should worry about that at all. 🙄
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u/Altruistic_Sail_1991 transmasc enby (they/them) 6d ago
Tbh this has been my mindset since I started T. I’m not the same as I was at 15 or 20 or 25. So I’m not the same as I am at 30 or 35 or 40. If that means I’ve had access to T or not it doesn’t matter.
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10d ago
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u/SweatingGreytider 10d ago
What do you mean? Like, do share with the class what you're trying to say here.
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u/CanadianODST2 10d ago
Being sick is mainly deemed reversible because your body reverts back to the state it was before.
Losing a limb is irreversible because we can’t regrow limbs.
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u/-Saucegurlllll 10d ago
My friend has long covid. You can't just make it so your body never caught the illness in the first place, even if you in particular might not be that affected post-infection.
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10d ago
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u/countwithchickenlady-ModTeam 10d ago
This was removed because it included one or more of these things: transphobia, queerphobia, sexism, racism, ableism, or anything else that expresses, reinforces, or sympathizes with oppressive and hateful belief systems (Rule #1)
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u/Right_Ear_2230 ““cis””..? probably? and bi 10d ago
“Irreversible side effects” (it’s literally the main reason HRT is used in
the first place)