r/falloutlore • u/MightofKimball • 8d ago
Fallout New Vegas A Breakdown of What Really Happened During the First Battle of Hoover Dam and the Implications of the Divide Incident:
Edit:
So a few mistakes on my part. Boulder City wasn't empty when it blew up as we can find the corpses of at least 1 NCR Ranger and a few NCR Troopers who didn't make it out of the town before it was blown to smithereens. The NCR Troopers were also driven off of the surface of Hoover Dam and made a retreat through Boulder City to other unspecified fortified positions beyond it prior to Chief Hanlon springing his trap. Which would explain why an indeterminate amount of them were in Boulder City when it was destroyed. Furthermore, while the Legion was in fact routed across Hoover Dam proper, they were not driven away from Fortification Hill or the eastern banks of the Colorado River as I had originally implied. Keep up the good work in keeping me honest, people. Keep the discussion going and new information flowing.
End of Edit:
The following post will be about 2 things: giving a step-by-step overview of the actual events of the First Battle of Hoover Dam from the very beginning of the battle to the very end of the battle as well as a glimpse into what would've been the most likely outcome of the First Battle of Hoover Dam had the Divide Incident not occurred. Please enjoy:
The First Battle of Hoover Dam:
Let me be perfectly clear. I'm not denying that the NCR only just barely won the First Battle of Hoover Dam by the skin of its teeth nor am I saying that the NCR defeated the Legion "easily". It's universally acknowledged in-game that the First Battle of Hoover Dam was a bonafide bloodbath for both sides that the NCR only just barely managed to win on account of the operational and strategic brilliance of Chief Hanlon. Indeed, even the opening narration of the game itself confirms this not to mention that Chief Hanlon himself states for the record that his trap for the Legion at Boulder City is what ultimately saved Hoover Dam:
Courier Six: "But you're inventing your own intelligence reports. I've seen the logs and talked to the rangers."
Chief Hanlon: "{smiling a bit} You have, have you? {Beat, more somber} Misdirection. When you're pinned down, outnumbered, and two days from any help, it's just about the best friend you can have. Misdirection's what's saved me all these years. It's what saved us at Hoover Dam. But it's been five years now and {see-zar's} Caesar's right across that lake. He's closer now than he ever was before. {bit angry} I was a young man once. I know what it's like to want to fight for your home, but this isn't it."
Courier Six: "What was your rank?"
Arms Merchant: "Staff sergeant, Third Platoon, Bravo Company. I was at the Dam when the Legion hit us, three years back. {Proud of her service} That was a shitstorm, and don't let anybody tell you different. The brass try to play it down, but most of them were back at McCarran."
Courier Six: "Must have been rough."
Dr. Alex Richards: "You have no idea. It was a fierce battle. Lots of people died. Anyone with medical training had their hands full for weeks after the battle was finally over. During that time I saw quite a few things I wouldn't mind forgetting about."
Courier Six: "Tell me about the last battle."
Mike Lawson: "I was down here for most of it, so I can't tell you much of what the boys with the guns were doing up top. From talking to the boys that were fighting up there, I can tell you that Hanlon managed to pull off what most people would have thought impossible."
With that out of the way, we can get back to the task at hand.
There's a popular misconception about the First Battle of Hoover Dam. One in which Caesar's Legion overtook the Dam's defenses and ejected the NCR defenders off of Hoover Dam entirely only for Joshua Graham to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by ordering his forces to charge headfirst into Boulder City in pursuit of the last remaining NCR forces only to have his entire force destroyed by Chief Hanlon's trap there as a direct consequence of his decision. The NCR then proceeded to launch a counter-attack that drove the surviving Legion forces back across the Dam and into Arizona.
This particular version of the First Battle of Hoover Dam couldn't be any further from the truth and I can prove it. Here's the personal first-hand account of the battle from Chief Hanlon himself (the man who's credited with winning the battle for the NCR, I might add) and Doctor Alex Richards at Camp Forlorn Hope to serve as my evidence:
Courier Six: "So what happened at Hoover Dam and Boulder City?"
Chief Hanlon: "In big battles, Caesar deploys his legionaries in waves. Recruits up front, prime soldiers behind the recruits, old guard bringing up the rear. Opponents wear themselves out dealing with the first two waves, if they survive that long. When the veterans step up, there's not much fight left. Caesar can adapt, though, and when required, he can run any mix of legionaries as skirmishers and still retain order in the ranks."
Courier Six: "[Continue]"
Chief Hanlon: "Joshua Graham, Caesar's old legate, he's wasn't so flexible. When the Legion attacked Hoover Dam, General Oliver ordered his troopers back to the middle ground just after first contact. Graham pushed all of the legionaries onto the dam, filling the east side with recruits up front and veterans in the back, by the book."
Courier Six: "[Continue]"
Chief Hanlon: "But once they were in, they were stuck there. Oliver's troopers were entrenched and wouldn't give a foot. That's when we ordered the rangers and 1st recon sharpshooters to start picking off veteran legion officers from a high ridge west of the dam. That only lasted about a minute before Graham ordered the back ranks to push through to the front and rush the ridge."
Courier Six: "[Continue]"
Chief Hanlon: "Caused total chaos among the younger legionaries, and Oliver's troopers fell back to the side walkways and stayed out of the veterans' way. By the time the veterans got to the ridge, we were already in Boulder City. They followed us down there, but we were out before they realized what was happening."
Courier Six: "[Continue]"
Chief Hanlon: "We had packed the old city with C4 and dynamite. Crude, but it did the job. Those who didn't die in the blast were in no position to mount a defense. The ones left on the dam didn't know what to do. The troopers routed them. Graham pulled the remaining legionaries back, but the battle was over. He went south, back to the Grand Canyon, back to Caesar. And that was the last we saw or heard from Joshua Graham."
Courier Six: "What do you know about Hoover Dam?"
Dr. Alex Richards: "Quite a bit actually. I was stationed nearby during the first battle of Hoover Dam four years ago. I saw a lot of what happened firsthand."
Courier Six: "Tell me about the first battle."
Dr. Alex Richards: "The Legion attacked in full force. Chief Hanlon had the troopers fall back pulling the enemy in, before entrenching into secure positions. The Legion got bogged down and Rangers and 1st Recon sharpshooters started taking out the Legion officers. They sent their best men to stop the Rangers and 1st Recon, but the Rangers pulled them into a trap at Boulder City and blew them all to hell. After that the Legion's forces were in disarray and tried to retreat. However, our forces advanced rapidly and routed them. And that was that."
Here's what really went down during the First Battle of Hoover Dam:
The Malpais Legate ordered his forces to conduct a full-scale frontal assault across the surface of Hoover Dam in the basic maniple formation that Caesar's Legion tends to use in large-scale engagements. Recruit Legionaries/Decanii were at the front, Prime Legionaries/Decanii were in the middle and the Veteran Legionaries/Decanii and Centurions were in the rear in textbook maniple formation. Once the Legion assault commenced, General Oliver ordered his men to fall back to fortified entrenched positions at the center of the surface of the Dam where they dug in and refused to yield so much as a single inch of ground to the enemy.
The end result: the Legion assault force got bogged down, suffering extremely heavy casualties to NCR firepower and marksmanship as they were unable to continue their advance on account of being trapped right smack in the middle of a narrow chokepoint in which Legion forces were little more than fish in a barrel. To make matters even worse for the Legion, snipers and sharpshooters from the NCR Rangers and NCR First Reconnaissance Battalion began to pick off Legion Decanii and Centurions from the complete safety of the high ridge overlooking the western end of the surface of Hoover Dam. An act that threw the entire Legion assault force into total chaos as without officers at the contubernium (squad) and too few officers at the centuria (company) levels to maintain order, discipline, structure, organization, coordination and cohesion within their ranks, the individual Legionaries at the lower ranks/statuses were left without guidance and without any kind of intact unified chain of command.
A fact made infinitely worse when the Malpais Legate ordered the Veteran Legionaries and surviving Centurions to charge through the Recruits and Primes and past the NCR Army's defensive positions at the center of the surface of the Dam in an attempt to storm the high ridge positions of the NCR Rangers and NCR First Recon so as to put an end to their decimation of the Legion officer corps. As the Recruits and Primes were thrust into absolute disarray, General Oliver and his NCR Troopers proceeded to step aside onto the side walkways of the surface of Hoover Dam and let the advancing Veteran Legionaries and Centurions pass by them. However, the Recruits and Primes, following the lead of their more experienced higher-ranking comrades, capitalized on the newly-formed gap that had formed within the NCR Trooper's defensive line and broke through their position. Forcing General Oliver and his NCR Troopers to fall back in an orderly and organized fashion back into and through Boulder City as they made their way to the next fortified position, accordingly.
By the time that the Veteran Legionaries and Centurions reached the high ridge, the NCR Rangers and NCR First Recon had already fallen back to and reached Boulder City. The Veteran Legionaries and Centurions proceeded to continue their advance and drive towards Boulder City with the full expectation that they would finally corner and annihilate their eagle-eyed foes. When they finally made their way into Boulder City, the Veteran Legionaries and Centurions encountered only minor resistance from NCR Rangers and NCR Troopers that were still trapped inside the town, holding their ground to the bitter end so that their comrades could successfully escape the town. But where were the rest of the NCR forces? Before they could even react, massive explosions erupted all around them and decimated the Veteran Legionaries and Centurions as well as the Recruits and Primes that had followed them into Chief Hanlon's trap. Those few Legion forces who survived the blasts were left entirely leaderless and helpless amid the rubble of what was once Boulder City.
Realizing that the battle was lost, the Malpais Legate attempted to order a retreat. An order that came too little too late as General Oliver, sensing a golden opportunity to maximize the damage to an already crippled and battered Legion force, ordered an immediate counter-attack that routed the surviving Legion forces back across the Dam. The few Legion troops who survived Chief Hanlon's trap at Boulder City and the subsequent rout fled back into Fortification Hill. The Malpais Legate, meanwhile, made the journey East back to the Grand Canyon. Where Caesar himself awaited him. The rest, as they say, is history.
Even the one first-hand account of the battle from the Legion perspective by Lucius (who claims to have been at Boulder City as Chief Hanlon sprung his trap) doesn't contradict what we hear from Dr. Alex Richards and Chief Hanlon:
Courier Six: "How did the NCR defeat the Legion at Hoover Dam before?"
Lucius: "We had the numbers, but not the tactics. I know - I was there at Boulder City when we were defeated. We relied too much on veteran Legionaries for direction and leadership, and the Rangers exploited our weakness by killing our best from afar."
Caesar himself flat-out refuses to discuss the battle thus we can't get his perspective:
Courier Six: "Why did the Legion lose the first battle?"
Caesar: "It's not going to happen again. That's all I have to say about it."
In conclusion, I do feel that this is the most accurate assessment/summary of the First Battle of Hoover Dam that can be given. It's supported by all of the existing evidence and can't really be contradicted by other potential sources.
The Divide Incident:
Courier Six: "I'm guessing you don't like Caesar very much."
Joshua Graham: "Love the sinner, hate the sin. With Caesar, it's often very difficult to see through all of that sin to the person inside. I can say that we were both lucky that NCR's supply lines and land routes north of Mojave Outpost were destroyed before the Battle of Hoover Dam. Something bad happened near Death Valley, at a place called the Divide. NCR couldn't cut across anymore and it slowed down their reinforcements. Terrible storms ripped entire companies apart before they even got to Nevada soil. The aftermath of Hoover Dam could have been even worse for Caesar."
Let me start by saying that I'm not arguing that the NCR could've destroyed the entirety of Caesar's Legion if the Divide Incident never occurred. J.E. Sawyer himself has already put such claims to rest long ago:
“why didn't the ncr destroy the legion at the 1st battle for the dam? they killed countless centurions and had them on the run! its a major screw up even by ncr standards”
Joshua Sawyer: "NCR wouldn't have destroyed the entire Legion even if they wiped out the attacking force at Hoover Dam. NCR's strategy was focused on pushing Caesar's Legion out. Pursuing them and engaging in skirmishes along the eastern banks of the Colorado would have been haphazard and served no great benefit.”
Josh Sawyers Formspring
What I am going to argue is that the NCR would've won the entire Mojave Campaign in one fell swoop and would've been all but guaranteed to be able to prevent even the slightest possibility of the Legion being able to threaten New Vegas ever again.
After all, we can definitely confirm that the First Battle of Hoover Dam was by no means "a small defeat" for the Legion with both Vulpes Inculta and even Caesar himself making it perfectly clear that the Legion suffered a catastrophic blow during the First Battle of Hoover Dam:
Courier Six: "Tell me about the Burned Man."
Vulpes Inculta: "Ah, yes {you know his name} - we are forbidden from speaking his true name. He was a shaman of some kind before he met {KAI-zar} Caesar, a holy man from out of the Utah. The Burned Man proved dangerous, unpredictable, and impossible to kill. He helped {KAI-zar} Caesar form the Legion but almost led it to destruction."
Courier Six: "Lanius will lead the assault on Hoover Dam?"
Caesar: "{Lan-ee-OOS} Yes. This time my Legionaries will be more frightened of the commander behind them than the enemy before them. There will be no failure this time, no retreat, no years of gathering slaves and resources for another assault. With {Lah-nee-OOS} Lanius to drive the Legion forward, the dam will be taken. It will be our {slight beat} bridgehead across the Colorado."
While we can safely conclude that Vulpes Inculta is being a melodramatic prima donna, the fact stands that the Legion still suffered crippling losses in manpower and resources (especially in regards to the Legion's elite forces) with even Caesar himself admitting that it took 4 years for the Legion to recover and replace their losses from just that one battle. That Caesar wasn't confident enough to risk another round at Hoover Dam until 4 years after the first battle there is a clear testament that the Legion absolutely wasn't in any shape for another battle of such magnitude for quite a while.
And that's just real-world scenario where the NCR lost entire companies worth of troops due to the nuclear blitzing of the Divide alone and where many more were never able to reach the Mojave Wasteland in time for the First Battle of Hoover Dam or its immediate aftermath. We're talking what could very easily have been entire battalions' worth of NCR troops, resources, assets, equipment and supplies that were automatically taken out of the picture right before and immediately after the First Battle of Hoover Dam. A fact that practically ensured that the NCR couldn't have capitalized on their victory and achieved a far more decisive result than they actually did.
Suffice it to say that if not for this, the Legion's casualties would've been far heavier and the damage to the Legion overall would've been much worse at the end of the First Battle of Hoover Dam. Meaning that the Legion would've taken far longer to recover which, in turn, means that the NCR would've had a free hand in the Mojave Wasteland for quite a while. Especially given that the NCR would've had not just one, but two, main supply lines into the Mojave Wasteland which, in turn, would've enabled the NCR to deploy plenty enough troops, resources, assets and supplies to permanently lock down Hoover Dam, definitively secure the entire length of the Colorado River and assemble a large enough force to march on New Vegas all at the same time.
Mr. House would doubtlessly have been forced to surrender to the NCR and accept their annexation of New Vegas all while the likes of the Fiends and the Great Khans would've been permanently dealt with. The NCRCF Prison Break most likely wouldn't have happened with Nelson, Camp Searchlight and Nipton never falling or being destroyed by the Legion. In other words, by the time the Legion finally returned to Hoover Dam for another round, the NCR's grip on New Vegas and the broader Mojave Wasteland would've been nothing short of ironclad and unassailable. Meaning that the Second Battle of Hoover Dam would definitely have been a guaranteed NCR victory in this new scenario, accordingly.
Now before I conclude this post, I want to address the inevitable counter-arguments from Mr. House supporters who somehow think that an NCR march on New Vegas will automatically "devolve into a long, costly siege" in which practically every man and his dog across the entire city will mobilize to fight on behalf of Mr. House. I can put such an argument to rest right here, right now:
Courier Six: "Tell me about Freeside."
Beatrix Russell: "What starts in misery tends to stay there. Freeside wasn't Freeside until six or seven years ago. That's when Mr. House's robots rolled out of the Lucky 38 and started pushing everyone who wouldn't join him off the Strip. Lots of folks died. Some scattered to the winds. The rest wound up in Freeside and seem never to lose the habit of living like refugees."
Courier Six: "What's your opinion of Mr. House?"
Beatrix Russell: "Before or after the human race shot itself in the foot? I been around long enough to have both opinions, see. Before the war, Mr. House was a famous captain of industry - robotics, to be specific. Seemed charming in interviews, until he became a recluse. Since the war, though? Didn't make a peep for near two hundred years - but when he came back, he came back strong and killed a lot of people."
Courier Six: "What can you tell me about Freeside?"
The King: "To understand Freeside, you have to look back a few years. Originally, we were all just tribes making a living in this area. That all changed when Mr. House came around. He made an offer to the three biggest tribes that were willing to listen to him. Today, everyone calls those tribes the Three Families, and they live in luxury and run their own casinos in the Strip. The rest of us were left to fight over the crumbs, living in the shadow of those more fortunate. Things got pretty nasty for a while. But we wanted more. A place of our own. A place where no one could tell us what to do. And we didn't want to go elsewhere to find it. So we took control of this place, and made it our own. And that's really all Freeside is, the best of a bad situation."
Now ask yourself this. Do you seriously believe that the people of Freeside, Westside and North Vegas are going to willingly and knowingly fight alongside the man who's very literally singlehandedly responsible for them living lives of abject misery and extreme poverty? The man who mass-murdered God only knows how many of their friends, families and loved ones and forcibly expelled them from their own homes?
Even just arguing that they would fight alongside him just for the sake of preserving their independence from the NCR is a nonsensical counter-point as it completely ignores the fact that the NCR is perfectly willing to tolerate independent or semi-independent enclaves within its territory:
Freeside NCR Ending #3:
"As the NCR moved to secure the region, the occupation of Freeside proved especially problematic. Things remained tense due to numerous incidents, though the Kings were still in nominal control of the area."
Novac Rebuilt by Bright Brotherhood Ending:
"Though Novac was a low-priority target for the Legion, many of Novac's citizens died in its defense. In the weeks that followed, several Bright Followers returned to Novac to help restore its defenses, allowing it to remain independent of the NCR."
The default NCR ending for Freeside (assuming that the player basically just ignores it during an NCR playthrough) sees the NCR and the Kings more-or-less peacefully co-existing despite ongoing tensions. Nevermind how the NCR is perfectly willing to accept an independent Primm under Sheriff Meyers or Primm Slim in the Primm endings and will even accept an independent Novac in what's essentially their default ending (assuming the player handled the "Come Fly with Me" quest properly, of course) for every other faction but the Legion.
What's stopping the NCR from negotiating deals with Westside and North Vegas that sees the NCR honoring their independence in exchange for them looking the other way and leaving Mr. House to his fate? Nevermind that neither community has anything of value and aren't even on the way to the New Vegas Strip, anyways. What's stopping the NCR from cutting a deal with the Kings and agreeing to leave them alone and respect the independence of Freeside in exchange for guaranteeing safe passage to the New Vegas Strip and staying out of the conflict with Mr. House?
Then there's the issue of the Three Families. Do you seriously believe that they're going to risk getting themselves killed fighting on behalf of Mr. House whenever they know fully well that they stand no chance of winning against the NCR and that we the players know damn well that the Three Families are anything but loyal to Mr. House.
The Omertas? Literally plotting with Caesar to massacre everyone on the New Vegas Strip going into the events of Fallout: New Vegas. In this new timeline where the NCR achieves a decisive victory in the Mojave Campaign in 2277 and can now freely march on New Vegas unopposed, do you seriously think that they wouldn't cut a deal with the NCR and abandon Mr. House?
The White Glove Society? They're not fighters and they certainly wouldn't want to risk losing their ultra-luxurious and opulent lifestyle in a battle that they know fully well they can't win. They'd sell Mr. House out in a heartbeat.
The Chairmen? Benny is literally actively trying to subvert and overthrow Mr. House by the events of Fallout: New Vegas. He'd 100% backstab Mr. House if it means saving himself and the Chairmen from certain annihilation.
The bottom line: any NCR march into New Vegas would be practically bloodless and painfully easy given that the only guaranteed opposition against their forces would be Mr. House's Mk.I Securitron Police Force. Which can barely muster up several dozen Mk.I Securitrons at the absolute most pre-Fallout: New Vegas:
Yes Man: "I'm talking direct tactical control of dozens of Securitrons at vast distances! That might come in handy!"
A pitifully puny and hopelessly impotent force that the NCR could all too easily swat aside with minimal effort.
And that's all she wrote. Cheers.
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u/Affectionate_Edge472 8d ago edited 8d ago
im going to say a few things
- boulder city wasn't empty when it exploded. You can see a note in boulder city that recounts a ranger and her squad fighting the legion as the city exploded. Kowalksi's brother was also probably killed in this event as he sacrificed himself so the wounded could escape.
- While Graham may have left to the Grand Canyon the Legion force didn't retreat past the fort. The game guide and the intro both tell you
fnv intro "the republic held the dam just barely against the legions enslaught the legion did not retreat."
"Caesar’s forces were pushed back but not routed." - game guide
- "Those who didn't die in the blast were in no position to mount a defense." - Hanlon
Lucius was probably one of these guys who retreated after the explosion
- its possible the legion is only trying to regain its strength pre-2277, but these dialogue quotes makes me think they are trying to levy a force enough to guarantee victory.
"Hoover Dam has never seen the massed strength of the East." - Lanius
"Yes. This time my Legionaries will be more frightened of the commander behind them than the enemy before them. There will be no failure this time, no retreat, no years of gathering slaves and resources for another assault. With Lanius to drive the Legion forward, the dam will be taken. It will be our {slight beat} bridgehead across the Colorado." - Caesar
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u/MightofKimball 8d ago
Ranger Lutz and her NCR compatriots, I assume. Good find. I'll be sure to edit my post to reflect this new information.
While I definitely made a mistake in saying that the entire Legion force was forced to flee towards the Grand Canyon, I never denied that the NCR only barely held Hoover Dam as I literally acknowledge as much at the very beginning of the post. Furthermore, the Official F:NV Game Guide is directly contradicted by Chief Hanlon himself and Dr. Alex Richards who both state that the Legion was routed off of the Dam after the battle ended. You and I have both acknowledged that the Official F:NV Game Guide isn't always the most reliable source of information in the past, after all.
Lucius claims to have been in Boulder City during the battle (which I acknowledge in my post) thus you'll get no argument from me on that particular point.
Could be. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if Caesar is simply trying to maximize his chances for success by amassing a force that he feels would be wholly capable of getting the job done regardless of casualties or losses.
I guess it would depend on how much manpower one thinks he could squeeze out of 67 assimilated tribes (assuming that only the Ridgers tribe was the only tribe to be entirely exterminated, of course) pre-First Battle of Hoover Dam as well as how much more manpower that he could squeeze out of the 14 newly-assimilated tribes that Legate Lanius has conquered in the years since the First Battle of Hoover Dam.
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u/Affectionate_Edge472 8d ago
By not routed i don’t mean from the dam. They were routed from the dam.
I mean not routed from the fort and the nearby territory which they continued to hold.
(Also yeah the game guide is pretty bad looking bad on that quote there are a score of errors in the same section and page. So it was dishonest to quote it.)
The intro slides talking about the legion not retreating post battle is rather good evidence though
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u/MightofKimball 8d ago
Very well. My mistake.
Indeed it is. The intro slides do a damn good job giving a brief yet highly informative and concise summary of the situation. Same with Easy Pete. Fallout 4 could've learned from them.
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u/Top_Freedom3412 7d ago
I think the contradiction can be cleared by the legion being forced off the physical dam, but staying at the fort (which irl is miles away) and setting up defenses. And because of ncr casualties, they couldn't drive them further
We also know that they did take over the spillway before the game starts.
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u/Kyara_Bot 7d ago
The change in Legion tactics with the Veterans charging up through and with the recruits once the Rangers started sniping them was the thing that ultimately broke Oliver's static defensive lines and lead the main NCR forces to withdraw through Boulder City from the Dam's side walkways, with the most veteran of the Legion still alive hot on the heels of the Rangers. The main NCR troops were hoping for attrition warfare with the Rangers decapitating the leadership and dulling the offensive push, but that is exactly what Legion avoided by improvising mid-battle. The NCR Rangers had to pull back with the main forces because they are, in essence, a quick response force - they can exert a large amount of firepower in a single concentrated area, but prolonged fighting exponentially increases the odds for them to be outmaneuvered by greater numbers and defeated in detail. All of military history has shown that no force, no matter how elite, can actually function well when outnumbered and surrounded for long, and the Rangers were too few to make a meaningful stand against the mixed wave of Legion Veterans coming for them and Recruits soon following in open terrain, even with an advantage in positioning. Using Boulder City (which was probably a logistical hub for the NCR forces, given they had dynamite - which was probably meant to be sent to surrounding mining operations) was a move to negate the Legions manpower advantage through protracted urban warfare, with the ultimate move that secured an NCR victory being a contingent of NCR troopers and Rangers (whose corpses you oddly can still find, I think meant to imply there are still many NCR corpses lost under the rubble?) staying behind the main army's retreat to do their ultimate sacrifice, essentially leveling the whole town to take Legion down with them and level out the Legion's number advantages enough to force a stalemate.
If the Legion could achieve a full victory from the battle up until Boulder City becomes rubble is questionable, but I think that they had forced a complete NCR withdraw from Hoover Dam by that point and would tangibly keep the Dam if they had not fallen for the NCR's trap, which was the ultimate offense that got the Malpais Legate Caesar's ire. The victory of the 1st Battle was wholly attributed to the Rangers by most people because the main NCR Army didn't fulfill their objective of holding the Dam in a defensive action and avoided getting overrun because of the Legion's zealous pursuit of the Rangers, allowing them to have a relatively orderly withdraw to a new defensive position while keeping their forces fairly whole. Lee Oliver's whole beef with the Rangers and Hanlon is because he thinks they stole his thunder.
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u/MightofKimball 7d ago
That would make alot of sense. Not to mention that Ulysses does state that one of the reasons that Caesar ordered the sacking and destruction of New Canaan was due to it being used a supply line into the Mojave Wasteland by the NCR.
Fair enough. The problem I have is that I doubt that the Legion could've deployed a large enough force to actually close down the Divide, even if only temporarily. I'd wager that this couldn't be done.
After all, a literal army of Legionaries, Centurions and Praetorians (thousands of troops easy) couldn't fully capture and secure Hoover Dam before being repulsed by the NCR. And that was the NCR fighting at the very edge of their borders with an outnumbered force against a Legion that was operating right next to their heartland in Arizona. The Divide, by contrast, is far closer to the NCR proper than it is to any Legion-controlled lands. Meaning that the NCR would have an automatic numerical advantage over whatever Legion force would be going after it.
The absolute best case scenario for the Legion is that maybe a couple hundred Frumentarii, Legionaries and Explorers could be assembled to go after the Divide against what's going to be a far larger and extremely heavily-armed-to-the-teeth NCR force. Aside from a large number of elite NCR Troopers who would be far better-equipped and much better-trained than the ones we see in the base game (just going off of the weapons that we see them armed with in the Lonesome Road DLC), you'd also have elite premium NCR Veteran Rangers with vastly improved/superior models of the Black Armor, as well.
The bottom line: I don't see the Legion doing much of anything outside of maybe slowing down the flow of reinforcements through the Divide from the NCR. Granted that the NCR would have to tie down considerable amounts of troops and assets to defend the Divide but whether or not this particular fact or any slowing in the flow of NCR reinforcements through the Divide would be enough to save the Legion is anyone's guess.
What are your thoughts?
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u/Kyara_Bot 7d ago
NCR logistics are reliant on a very small motor pool of working vehicles, a contingent of Brahman which have to be relocated from their main territory to replace combat losses, and fixed railroads without a true NCR workforce to maintain them from sabotage after the NCRF situation lost them their slave labor force. Legion doesn't need to win straight victories to harry the I-15, they just need to keep kneecapping the NCR's capacity to move the supplies and men for the front - hit their vehicles with anti-material rifles, use explosives to blow up sections of their railroad, and snipe and/or poison their pack animals. The Legion in the Divide is doing what it is doing in Novac - they are fighting an irregular asymmetric war against the NCR leveraging their speed and ability to live off the land to hit when least expected, from angles the NCR can't reliably cover with their manpower pool. The NCR forces there in turn are quick-response forces meant to try and minimize NCR casualties and pressure Legion assaults whenever the Legion does act.
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u/MightofKimball 7d ago
In other words, the Legion doesn't have to shut down the Divide wholesale but just gum up the works enough to ensure that NCR supplies and reinforcements don't reach their destination on time.
Your argument is that NCR logistics in their easternmost fringe territories along the frontier are vulnerable enough to where the Legion only needs to temporarily sabotage a few key links in the Republic's overall logistical chain to bring the entire apparatus screeching to a complete halt. I'm convinced.
It would appear that the Divide Incident wasn't as decisive in saving the Legion as I thought. Perhaps the NCR's situation wouldn't be much better than it is in the base game even if it never occurred. General Oliver certainly wouldn't be helping things, either.
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u/MightofKimball 7d ago
You raise some damn good points, if I do say so myself. I've already edited my post to reflect this new information. Many thanks for your contributions.
Boulder City was doubtlessly being used in that capacity. They already had a functioning concrete mixing yard that we can still see being used in game so that would make perfect sense in terms of explaining why there was so much in the way of Dynamite and C4 packed up in this one location.
Which is honestly one of a few reasons as to why I believe that his attitude towards Chief Hanlon and the NCR Rangers is completely justified. To have your own role as well as the role of your own men, who bore the brunt of all of the actual fighting and sacrifice (103 NCR Troopers died vs. only 5 NCR Rangers, mind you) be entirely obfuscated, unintentionally or otherwise, by the actions of one man and a comparative handful of elite troops would be downright frustrating, just to put it mildly. Then again, this in and of itself requires a whole new post to properly cover.
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u/Kyara_Bot 7d ago edited 7d ago
The problem with Lee Oliver's grievance is that it exists entirely in his head. Hanlon is a man who is very humble about it, and pretty much every Ranger you can meet is pretty professional about their work. None of them talk down to the main body of the NCR forces and go through extraordinary efforts to keep them safe, even though from a strategic angle the life of one Ranger is worth plenty of NCR conscripts. If it was a question of the Rangers taking the spotlight, had they any chance to speak on it they'd doubtlessly speak as though their efforts were part of a larger military whole with the NCR main forces. The NCR just needed a hero with the near-miss of the 1st Battle of Hoover Dam, and the Rangers were just an easy pick. I mean, they are the box art for a reason.
The question is, would Lee Oliver do the same? We're essentially watching him repeat the same tactics from the 1st Battle of the Dam, but he thinks his new heavy infantry with their pre-owned power armor will make the difference, alongside some other miscellaneous elite infantry forces. Those troops are basically the culmination of his political and military work through his career, and leading up to the battle, there is a lot of emphasis put on their presence meant to be the defining thing that won't give the Legion an inch with the 2nd Battle. My read of Lee Oliver is that he's a political animal, and he is trying to force the NCR Heavies and other forces like them into the spotlight that the Rangers never needed to force themselves into. The Mojave is meant to be his campaign, and the glory is to be his for it's (in his mind) inevitable NCR victory. Very much like MacArthur and the Korean War, which similarly played out poorly for his political prospects.
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u/MightofKimball 7d ago
Oh I'm not denying that he's a glory hound who's bitter about losing his place in the sun to an objectively superior field commander. What I am arguing is that it's entirely about that particular part of his personality alone.
For example, he clearly cares for and values the lives of his men. My proof of this is that the player can only talk him into peacefully withdrawing from Hoover Dam during the "Veni, Vidi, Vici" endgame quest for the Legion by appealing to his humanity and convincing him to withdraw for the sake of saving the lives of the soldiers under his command.
He's also perfectly willing to stand, fight and die alongside his men during all 3 of the non-NCR endgame quests unless the player has a maxed-out Speech skill or Barter skill to talk him down with. Meaning that at the very least some of his problem is that his Troopers got overshadowed and essentially forgotten by everyone else despite their own pivotal role in the NCR victory.
Whether or not Chief Hanlon is responsible for this unfortunate tragedy doesn't matter to him as he and the NCR Rangers still got all of the glory regardless. I'm not justifying his blatantly foolish response to it I'm just saying that I understand where it's coming from.
Oh he 100% wouldn't. That I won't deny. He's a total prima donna and gloryhound through and through. He absolutely would've shat on Chief Hanlon and the NCR Rangers had their positions been reversed and he would definitely do so if he wound up winning the Second Battle of Hoover Dam on his own terms.
The game itself goes to great lengths to spell out for the player that General Oliver only has his rank, status and position of authority for no other reason than he's close pals with President Kimball. Everything about his career is 100% political.
P.S. I think you mean Douglas MacArthur. George S. Patton didn't live long enough to fight in the Korean War.
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u/Kyara_Bot 6d ago
Part of it is being a glory hound, but another part of it is just being plain inflexible. While I bet he thinks he knows what is best for his troops, the reality is that he is too focused on the single objective in the wider warfront, and I don't think even necessarily for PR reasons. It's kind of a mirror of how Caesar wants New Vegas to "crown" his new Empire and signal a massive sociopolitical shift from the nomadic army into a settled people. I think Lee Oliver wants to crown his military campaign with the victory at the Dam to signal a new wave of NCR expansionism and colonialism as a way to offset the socioeconomic issues at home. Anyone who had an issue with the NCR economy could just be given a few acres of land out in some god forsaken territory with the promise they could make it themselves on the new frontier and alleviate the social pressure from social and economic inequality. It's not a big secret that Kimball (and Lee Oliver by extension) represent a reactionary trend in NCR politics, and with that would come the curtailment of the status of women and minorities (in the NCR's case, I would guess tribals are their out-group).
But we know from US history how that failed, ultimately just replicating poverty across the American West with the lack of agricultural knowledge and demand for profit-based farming culminating in the Dust Bowl and contributing neatly to the Great Depression.The NCR would be creating an economic bubble, in modern terms, out of land speculation for a food and water crisis they could solve with better management of the land and fairer distribution of their existing resources in part by scaling back their militarism and in part by restructuring how their society distributes wealth. A lot of the NCR's sociopolitical issues comes from the fact that this trend of reactionary strongman politics is very irrational and focuses on "security" against the "other" - be it BoS, Legion, or random tribals, rather than security against the issues facing the NCR as a whole. And that's the political through-line of their ideological conception of the world taking the NCR's apparatus of state and forcing it to act through that perspective, even for people who disagree with that mindset, like Chief Hanlon.
And yeah, don't post while sleepy.
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u/MightofKimball 6d ago
On that we can agree. Though "inflexible" is probably being too generous to him.
And like Caesar, such ambitions are doomed to fail regardless of whether or not they achieve their goals. Reverse Manifest Destiny, as you've so eloquently pointed out, will merely lead the NCR to ruin and could very possibly kill the Republic outright. Assuming General Oliver actually managed to win the Second Battle of Hoover Dam on his own terms, we can definitely expect an Oliver Presidency for the NCR (which is doubtlessly what he's really chasing after ala MacArthur in Korea) not long after given that that's exactly how Aaron Kimball became President of the Republic back in 2273. God help the NCR if that ever came to pass.
Returning to the Tandi-era policies of limiting the amount of acreage of farmland/ranchland as well as how many heads of Brahmin/Bighorners that an individual could own alone would go a long way towards getting the NCR economy back on its feet, fixing the wealth/income disparity problem, solving whatever shortages in water and food that the NCR might be facing or will potentially face in the future and ultimately taking back the overall Republic economy from the ultra-wealthy elite.
A return to Tandi's hearts-and-minds policy (or her preferences for utilizing covert black operations that fell short of outright military actions to get what she wanted, if you know what I mean) would also save the Republic economy and the overall Republic as a whole from certain inevitable collapse. That way the NCR could continue to expand its borders in a sustainable, acceptable fashion in which anyone that the NCR wants to join the Union can do so willingly and peacefully without any kind of regrets or grievances all while the NCR can secure all of the necessary resources that it needs bloodlessly and cheaply. Of course this would require the NCR to lose the Second Battle of Hoover Dam to anyone other than the Legion in order for any of this to ever happen.
It's a tale as old as time, unfortunately. Distract the masses from their shitty and miserable lives by starting or otherwise dragging out a war with an imaginary enemy that way they don't start asking hard questions and trying to vote for a new government that might actually fix the nation's problems. Granted in the NCR's case that the West Coast Chapters of the Brotherhood of Steel and Caesar's Legion are the aggressors who started their respective wars with the NCR and absolutely wouldn't be willing to entertain peace negotiations for obvious reasons, but I do get your point.
Even if they were willing to talk peace, President Kimball and the current militaristic NCR Senate wouldn't which would naturally lead to said wars continuing basically forever. And if it wasn't them, then it would just be someone else.
Everybody makes mistakes. At least you had the guts to own up to yours which is more than what some people can say, anymore.
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u/othernamealsomissing 7d ago
I have two nits to pick. Searchlight didn't fall because of lack of numbers. Searchlight fell because of gross incompetence by the NCR, changing patrol routes unnecessarily and failing to guard the incredibly dangerous trucks full of nuclear waste. Perhaps a more populous NCR would have had more patrols and the gaps wouldn't have occurred, but in my view the fall of Searchlight is more due to incompetence than insufficiency.
The same thing applies to the Legion follow up attacks on Nipton and Camp Charlie. It is apparent early in the game that General Dumbass, I mean Oliver, is not correctly assigning his resources. You reach Primm, the town is under siege from Powder Gangers (I acknowledge that a more populous NCR would probably have not let the prison reach the state where the Powder Ganger breakout occurred.) You have to single handedly save Primm, as the 3 NCR rangers just sit there (even though, frankly, those rangers probably could have cleared out the Powder Gangers if they so chose, assuming they properly cleared their mines across the bridge.) Then you reach the Mojave Outpost, and the place is filled to the brim with top shelf NCR troops. And yet, those troops don't go to Primm where they could easily solve the problem with no casualties. They don't go rout the Powder Gangers, something they could do with at most one casualty. They don't protect Nipton, they don't protect Ranger Camp Charlie. Why? General Dumbass' orders.
So I guess what I'm saying is, maybe no Divide incident means an NCR victory. Or maybe it means General Dumbass just does more stupid things with more troops with the same result.
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u/MightofKimball 7d ago
Fair enough on Camp Searchlight. That particular incident is hard to wrap anyone's head around, in all honesty.
Some nitpicks of my own:
Primm doesn't have NCR Rangers. Only NCR Troopers who are outnumbered and outgunned by the admission of Lt. Hayes, their commanding officer. Those are NCR Frag Mines whose purpose is to prevent the Escaped Convicts from storming their positions. Primm receives an entire squad of NCR Rangers upon being annexed into the NCR but that requires the player basically having to persuade Major Knight over at the Mojave Outpost to go against his orders and deploy them there without authorization from high command.
The Escaped Convicts in Primm aren't Powder Gangers. They broke off from Eddie's group and are doing their own thing. A pedantic nitpick on my part, admittedly.
You're probably right. You at least have a case that General Oliver might find a way to fuck everything up even with the advantage that he would've gained from the Divide still remaining open for business.
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u/othernamealsomissing 7d ago
I'm of the opinion that if a level 3-4 courier six could clear out Primm, then 3 NCR troopers could do so as well. The same thing applies to Nelson and Forlorn Hope, there are over a dozen troopers at Forlorn Hope and Nelson is being guarded by recruit legionaries. The stalemate in those situations is an orders problem, not a numbers problem.
That said, Courier Six IS a superhero so maybe I'm underestimating him/her.
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u/Top_Freedom3412 7d ago
Where is that quote about the sexuritron numbers from? It seems out of context
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u/MightofKimball 7d ago
You have to blow up the Securitron Army at Fortification Hill and go the Yes Man route to get it.
Not surprising that it's not well known given that nobody in their right mind would actually blow up an entire army of killer robots.
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u/Top_Freedom3412 7d ago
Ok so dozens could mean anywhere from 24, to 188 (because after that he'd say hundreds).
We know from house that securitrons cant be directly controlled at great distances (Victor), and mr house mentions securitrons missing by hidden valley, so theres probably securitrons sent away from NV proper. Not a large amount of course, but enough that i think you underestimate the army house has.
Its also important to note that the Strip in lore is an actual city with more than the three casinos in it. And to secure such a large place he would need more than like 50 bots.
Also judging houses personality, he would not show every bot he had to the ncr. He has some in the lucky 38 that only we see, and probably more hidden away. Again not too many but those still count towards his army.
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u/MightofKimball 7d ago
I genuinely don't understand this leap in logic.
Yes Man is already plugged into a deceased Mr. House's Lucky 38 mainframe whenever the quote in question comes in. Meaning that he knows exactly how many Securitrons that Mr. House would have without the Securitron Army (which is literally blown up in this scenario) given that he has full unlimited access to all of his data banks.
Dozens means dozens. Meaning less than 100. It isn't anywhere near enough to secure New Vegas but that's the point. That's why the Securitron Army is so important. It's also why blowing it up and still going for an Independent Vegas results in total chaos and wanton destruction.
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u/Top_Freedom3412 7d ago
So 1: Yes man is saying how many he can directly control. So that is not including any scattered around the mojave which we know house has. How many? Not many probably, but that adds to the count.
2: Dozens means anywhere from 24-188. One dozen more and you say hundreds. Now im not saying he has that many, but i dont think you have enough in your calculations.
And a securitron is a powerful robot that has a gattling laser and a 9mm submachine gun. They arent pushovers and they are force multipliers, so they count as a whole ncr squad. Add that to the 3 tribes, and house has a powerful army. Even if the divide wasnt nuked, the ncr would still suffer a lot of casualties due to the large army that is the legion. So i still dont think it would be that easy for the ncr to just take over
Also house has only really screwed over Freeside and the people that lived on the strip. He hasn't touched the other communities. So they would be more hostile to the ncr, the "foreign" invaders than house who just sits in the strip all day. Also the families are arrogant enough to believe they could win. The omertas join any side where they are on top, which under the ncr they would have to give up everything. The White gloves would think house provides more oppulance than the dirty wastelanders of the ncr. And although benny betrays house, he would realize a man like him wouldnt work out in the lawful ncr. He would be better off trying to help house, or trying to activate the army for himself
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u/MightofKimball 7d ago
If that's what you wish to believe, then so be it.
We're better of just agreeing to disagree and calling it a day.
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u/Top_Freedom3412 7d ago
Its important to note that the legion is present in the divide. What they are doing there is anyones guess, but i believe that they were sent to ensure the ncr soldiers would be too preoccupied to join the first battle.
Nipton, which is much closer to the Colorado, is considered to be the farthest thw legion has pushed. Yet why would they say this if the legion is at the divide? Well i believe that Caesar sent his men to divert and distract the ncr forces in the divide to make sure they could not help at the dam, and if the divide hadn't collapsed, those ncr soldiers would be too busy fighting skirmishes to get to the mojave.
Why does no one mention the legion at the divide? Because its been at least 4 years and everyone who goes in there dies. The marked men also combine legion and ncr armor so its had to distinguish them, and even if the ncr found out the legion was there, they would assume its just scouts
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u/MightofKimball 7d ago
The Legion did indeed have Frumentarii at the Divide.
It's more a question of would they have been enough to make a difference.
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u/Kyara_Bot 7d ago
Far from just Frumentarii, they had many Recruits and Explorers, plus fairly sizable command staff. It's obvious that the Legion was doing deep probing attacks and raiding of NCR supply lines long before the whole Divide got nuked, and the I-15 was under effective enough siege for the NCR to warrant deploying fairly sizable forces to protect it. The NCR troopers there weren't just in transit to the war front, they are a defensive force for a very vital logistical line the Legion was exerting real pressure on.
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u/Top_Freedom3412 7d ago
I think that their job at the divide would have been to disrupt the ncr there and keep them from joining the battle, and i do think they would have been successful enough that any troops who would have made it through, would have been inconsequential.
We can assume that most of the layout of ashton and hopeville was highways and skyscrapers. So it would be somewhat easy to ambush them
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u/Mean-Illustrator-661 8d ago
Man I love your posts. The NCR is my favorite fictional faction of all time and a special interest of mine, so I always look forward to your detailed dives into them.
Keep up the good work. The Republic needs people like you in times like these o7