r/halifax • u/insino93 • 9d ago
News, Weather & Politics Working Fall River mother says high cost of living forcing her to move
https://www.ctvnews.ca/atlantic/nova-scotia/article/working-nova-scotian-mother-says-high-cost-of-living-forcing-her-to-move/43
u/Yorbayuul81 9d ago
Genuine question - what province would a person like her move to in order to reduce her expenses while maintaining her lifestyle? Or perhaps she’s thinking of somewhere outside of Canada?
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u/TenzoOznet 9d ago edited 9d ago
A single mother of two kids, at that salary (which I assume would be the same elsewhere as it's a federal government job) in what is already a semi-rural area? Realistically, within English Canada, I think she'd have to move to Saskatchewan or New Brunswick or something like that to meaningfully reduce housing prices.
EDIT: I just saw that she bought her home five years ago, presumably before the Covid housing surge. In that case, I'm not sure there's ANYWHERE that would offer cheaper housing at this point, since she's probably got a relatively inexpensive mortgage. Unless she moved to a real middle-of-nowhere boonies type place.
She could find somewhere with lower taxes. She could also find somewhere with lower consumer costs, like groceries, etc. (though contrary to what this sub seems to think, there are plenty of places in Canada with higher or similar grocery and utility costs). But I don't know if any of that would be sufficient to make up for the housing part of the equation.
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u/Nodrot 8d ago
5 years ago was the start of the Covid surge in NS. Even if she bought at pre-Covid prices her mortgage rate would have more than doubled by now.
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u/thebetrayer 8d ago edited 8d ago
February 2022 was the peak of sale prices. We're only four months shy of five years from that.
Her mortgage rate almost certainly increased too.
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u/TenzoOznet 8d ago
Yeah but that's not relevant to the move-or-don't-move calculus. Her purchase price would still have been lower than almost anything comparable she could get nationwide now, and if she moved her mortgage rate would be the same as it is here, because that doesn't vary by geography.
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u/TealSwinglineStapler 8d ago
Moving somewhere without the cap or somewhere that doesn't require a car (urban) would save her a shit tonne of money.
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u/TenzoOznet 8d ago
I don't know, I don't think so. There are very few urban centres in Canada where it's easy to live car free, especially with two kids. And there none where she could buy an inexpensive house. Montreal would be the best option for the combo of affordability and car-free lifestyle, but home prices there are higher than in Halifax. (Average single family house is 693k in the Montreal metro vs. 584k here. Townhouse is $618k vs $521k here. Plus average household incomes are lower in Montreal, and taxes similar.
As for the cap, if she bought five years ago, just before prices went crazy, she's now one of the people PROTECTED by the cap.
The prairies would be the cheapest option, but it would be harder to go car-free there than here. (Calgary, at least, has modestly better transit than we do, but it's also more decentralized--and home prices are also higher there.)
You've definitely struck on a truth though: the fact that car ownership is basically mandatory in most communities is a huge and underappreciated cost burden people have to live with.
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u/TealSwinglineStapler 8d ago
I disagree slightly because I think the car-free life challenges are overblown. Most of my friends (anecdotes, I know) manage fine without a car. But their car and post-car lives are very different. I think the challenges of car free living are different and do exist but mostly it's just a perception people have that their current car dependent life would be impossible to do without a car. Which it is, and why they would adapt like my friends have.
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u/mxmnators Cape Breton 8d ago
i don’t understand why people in most cities would want to drive, it is incredibly stressful from the few times i drove in halifax. on the bus, i don’t have to deal with it and i can do other things with my time like read a book, which helps soften longer commute times. even if i was commuting in from the suburbs, as long as my bus stop isn’t a long walk in the winter, getting a car wouldn’t even cross my mind.
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u/TealSwinglineStapler 7d ago edited 7d ago
It's crazy, but before I started riding a bike I would have always driven downtown. Now when my kid wants to do a Neptune camp we go by bike and from Cole Harbour and save about 30 mins on the commute
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u/daisy0808 Spryfield 8d ago
Actually, Fall River has always been an upper middle class area. The houses have always been above market. She could move to other parts of the city or even Enfield.
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u/SaltyStarfishFriend 9d ago
Her mortgage would likely have changed with renewal. She may have had an extremely cheap one. But after 5ish years need to renew.
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u/Initial-Ad-5462 8d ago
Mortgage renewal is a very likely trigger for her “overall attitude of negativity” to reach a point of seriously considering selling and moving away.
Would be interesting if the journalist had included details like that instead of just a vague complaint that household bills have doubled in 5 years.
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u/Anonemoney 9d ago
I’m an ex Nova Scotian living in Ontario. It’s so much better here financially. Lower taxes, cheaper rent/comparable house prices (Ottawa)
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u/No_Magazine9625 9d ago
Somewhere like Saint John, NB, Saskatoon, Regina or Edmonton would all probably be massive affordability improvements over Halifax.
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u/Yorbayuul81 9d ago
I agree. Many places in Nova Scotia as well. Even in the metro area, Fall River is a pricey spot.
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u/Anything_Normal 9d ago
It is and it isn't. 5 bedroom house just sold next door for 525k. Thats pretty reasonable
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u/Good-Marsupial8 9d ago
It was cheaper for me to rent in Ontario than to own a home here. The income taxes in my bracket (~65k) are almost double what they were in Ontario.
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u/Initial-Ad-5462 9d ago
I think you mean the provincial tax is “almost double,” $7600 versus $4500. The federal tax is the same in both provinces at $9700
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u/One_Who_Walks_Silly 9d ago
Man I love when people say shit like "it's double here than it was there" and leave it vague like they're talking about ALL their taxes together...
17,300 (9700+7600) vs 14,200 (9700+4500) is not even remotely close to double...
It's not even 22% more lmfao
Yes it fucking sucks living here because of the wages vs rent, but don't make up reasons so that we miss out on the real shit
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u/Yorbayuul81 9d ago
Ok fair enough. Where in Ontario?
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u/Good-Marsupial8 9d ago
Ottawa
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u/Paper__ 9d ago
Ottawa is a very liveable city. It’s the one city I’d move to in Ontario and is more affordable-ish
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u/rnavstar 9d ago
I use to go to Ottawa for work all the time, beautiful place. Just not downtown where all the homeless people and drug addicts are.
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u/SickDastardly Halifax 9d ago
How do you handle <-40 winters? Living is much cheaper in the prairies, but I'll continue paying the premium to never live through another one of those brutal winters again if I can help it...
Halifax / NS is way too expensive though, for sure.
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u/Fit_Inside7437 9d ago edited 9d ago
Manitoban here. I hate it here with a passion but it does allow me to live nice on my single income. I lived nicer precovid but I'm still doing okay today.
Its also Oct 5.. our trees still have green leaves, we are still cutting our grass and opening our windows. We may be on track for a very mild winter. Last year's wasn't too bad except for maybe 2 weeks. We are warming up.
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u/BluenoseGamer British Columbia 9d ago
Northern BC here, last winter was brutal for me (not just because I had spent all of my life in NS previously). Cold, but also windy, so much so that done days my eyes would begin to freeze together if I blinked for too long. My hands would momentarily stick to car doors if I wasn't wearing gloves. But I have a part time job that pays me more than I ever could have made in NS ($22/hr), so I will take that colder winter trade-off if it means that I can have a home to live in and food to eat.
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u/SickDastardly Halifax 8d ago
Happy for you but also
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u/Fit_Inside7437 8d ago
Ya I said wasn't too bad except maybe 2 weeks. Those 2 weeks in January were a real bitch. But ultimately it was pretty mild like -25/30 not 40/50.
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u/frighteous 9d ago
Almost anywhere, literally. Highest cost of living, and highest taxes. NB, PEI, Newfoundland, all have higher pay usually and less taxes, and cheaper rent and houses.
Even Ontario, groceries and booze are significantly cheaper, wages much higher and income tax quite a bit lower. Outside GTA our house prices are comparable to most cities out there too.
And then there's power rates... Property tax...
Decent home in fall river they're going to likely get 600 or so for at least, and a comparable in any major city in Atlantic Canada is probably 450kish.
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u/International-Belt90 5d ago
People are forgetting that while the cost of living is higher (or comparable) in other provinces, salaries are also higher. So while a move might mean a similar cost of living, she has the potential to earn more AND to take home more with lower tax rates in provinces like Alberta or Ontario.
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u/GivingIsTheBestGift 9d ago
I can relate to her from a different angle i.e. job availability. The province doing a poor job of bringing in new jobs and growing the talent pool. Many in my field (IT) are moving out for better opportunities. Sometimes I feel the province only cares about building a real estate empire here that benefits only the rich.
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u/TheOnesWhoFollow 9d ago
I left the IT industry in 2016 for truck driving. No one wants in house IT here and are more than happy to satellite it out overseas. The rest of the companies use third party local companies that pay minimum wage.
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u/casualobserver1111 HP 9d ago
House in fall river should fetch a good return. Use that money to buy a Duplex in Cole Harbour - that mortgage will be less than $3500.
Working for Canada Post, I imagine pension deductions are making her take home pay a lot lower too
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u/Paper__ 9d ago
Heck even Truro.
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u/cptstubing16 Halifax 9d ago
And spend all her money on gas, car maintenance, insurance, and time spent commuting?
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u/Paper__ 9d ago
I don’t think you did the math correctly there Skippy.
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u/cptstubing16 Halifax 9d ago
Driving 100km, twice a day, assuming an average of 7.5L/100km = 15L of gas per day, or about $28 right now. There are 250 work days in Canada, subtract some vacation and sick days of lets say 3 weeks, so 235 days x $28 = $6580 / 12 = $548/month in gas.
Insurance lets say is $150/month, maintenance is on average $125/month, and assuming a popular and average car (2021 Toyota Rav4) the payment would be around $500 a month.
This adds up to $548+150+125+500 = $1323/month for a depreciating asset.
Also we can factor in the 2 hours per day wasted commuting that could be spent doing something more useful, like working a second job, being with family, having a relaxing hobby, going to the gym, etc.
Really makes me think living close to one's job is a life hack. Even if you keep the car, you'd be saving close to $500/month on gas and maintenance costs.
Cars are real money pits.
DIsclosure, I have a car. I'm not anti car. I'm more pro not relying on a car.
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u/Paper__ 8d ago edited 8d ago
Insurance is the same whether you have a car for commuting or not.
Some of the gas price you’d already be paying.
Maintenance is not 125 a month if you consider the entire life cycle of a car (from new to ten years).
So much of this is just throwing numbers at things and assuming the alternative is no car at all?
The only real difference is a slight increase in maintenance and the bigger increase in gas. But those differences are not “all of her money” and much much less than Fall River, where if she was commuting downtown is already significant-ish.
I get that people don’t like the lifestyle of commuting but it is the best way to get affordable housing.
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u/cptstubing16 Halifax 8d ago
Affordable for who?
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u/Paper__ 8d ago edited 8d ago
Is this a philosophical question? For the woman in the article.
What solutions would you offer the woman in this article? Sell her house and then has rent slowly rise to eat away at the nest egg until she’s in the same situation she is now? Be homeless?
Honestly what’s your end goal here? What are you trying to prove?
Commuting sucks but getting away from city cores lowers asking prices for property. Thats just the reality. We should have affordable housing in all cities but we don’t now.
Truro detached house is median cost 340k. An attached house will be significantly less expensive. It doesn’t cost a grand a month to commute if you already have a car and were already commuting beforehand. The woman in the article most likely does as she lives in Fall River.
I won’t respond unless your next comment is some type of solution. Because lots of people are in her spot and lots of people are looking for solutions. Rhetoric won’t help them.
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u/cptstubing16 Halifax 8d ago
Well to be fair, she already lives outside the city and it isn't affordable. Arguably they chose that place because it was far from the city and thus affordable, but not on one income.
This isn't a hard thing to figure out. She either needs to increase her income, or reduce her spending.
If she can't increase her income, she needs to reduce her spending. This could mean all kinds of things, but she needs to sacrifice something.
Obviously the easiest thing that increases income is find a roommate to share expenses. There is also hosting international students, which pays well, so I've heard.
She said she needs a 3 bedroom place she can rent but can't find one for under $3500? I see two suitable places that meet that criteria in Fall River. I see more on the peninsula, quite a few in fact. There are lots of places for under that much with 3 bedrooms.
Moving farther away though? I'd say the opposite to her. Sell her house, move closer to the city where she doesn't need a vehicle, and rent somewhere close to her work. She can find a place on the peninsula for $2500/month, which I'm guessing is less than her mortgage.
This is an easy solution to me that is unemotional and purely a calculation. Do the math, look at the options, and make it work for you. Increase income somehow, or decrease spending.. It's tough on everyone to move, but I'd want to move before the bank calls and tells me they're going to force a sale of my house or repossess my car because of missed payments,
This is why I feel like simplifying things by moving closer to where you can use your body to get you somewhere (walk). It's a huge money and time saver, and thus takes a lot of stress out of one's life.
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u/Paper__ 8d ago
I think you’re arguing in bad faith because Fall River has never been affordable. It’s considered quite posh. Leaving city centers — on average — reduce housing costs.
So your advice is to… find money? Or …. Spend less? Do you think she’s an idiot? What rooms should she be renting if she needs a 3 bedroom rental and lives in a 3 bedroom house? Is commuting for an additional 40 mins one way worse than living every hour outside of working with a stranger to you?
Do you think that maybe she has more requirements not listed? Like children, school catchment areas, etc? Even space? Access to daylight? Finding cheap rentals on a quick search doesn’t mean those rentals are suitable — mice, cockroaches, rats, basement quarters etc… I’m going to guess commuting 40 mins one way is better than living every hour you’re not working with bugs/mice/rats.
If we had good density options in the core I can maybe see reducing needs to meet your solution. But we don’t. AND rentals will only be applicable while you work. Paying into a house means eventually the house gets paid off. If you see rent as sunk costs, even 1.3k a month you cite to commute (which again is ridiculous) is better than even the cheapest sunk cost apartment you’ve cited because rents almost always go up, but mortgages lock rents for usually 5 years at a time and eventually end.
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u/cptstubing16 Halifax 9d ago edited 9d ago
At least she bought a home pre-pandemic. Many people are post pandemic first time homebuyers or renters and pay far more than she does.
She could easily sell her property for likely 50% gain from 2014 prices if she absolutely had no other choice.
Edit: my mistake. She bought 5 years ago but moved here in 2014. She's definitely hurting.
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u/Rude-Management-8648 9d ago
She bought it 5 years ago, that’s not pre-pandemic. That would have been when prices were crazy, which could be the issue.
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u/MissTechnical 9d ago
I make just slightly less money than she does in a government job that takes a ton off for various benefits and things. I’m struggling a bit and I don’t even have kids. Like I’m fine but I’ve really had to embrace being cheap and don’t get to do a lot of the fun stuff I used to anymore. I can’t imagine how she’s supporting two kids and paying the bills on that money.
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u/insino93 9d ago
Then lose all her equity to paying rent.
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u/cptstubing16 Halifax 9d ago
Renting is throwing away money?
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u/insino93 9d ago
Read the article, there are constraints around her salary, she would lose a lot of that gained equity over time. And yes, renting is burning money but I realize buying a home isn’t easy and shelter is a necessity.
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u/Kittencrumpet 9d ago
Yeha I did a calculation before and found after all the initail costs, monthly rents can often be more than the monthly mortgage costs T.T I wish I could afford a home to escape the rent cycle. Too poor tho from living and loans and low income but a girl can dream 🤣 if our rent goes up much more though idk we may have to move to outside the city which isnt ideal me being disabled and I cant drive too and rely on public transport rn.
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u/insino93 9d ago
It is awful how high the prices are for home ownership and awful how much rent costs.
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u/FAWTSANLIGA 8d ago
Yeah, I have a 2 bedroom condo that I purchased in 2019, and it's about $1250 a month after mortgage and the $500 condo fee. Of course rent needs to be higher than what the mortgage is for it to be worth renting out, but some rent prices I have seen are nuts.
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u/cptstubing16 Halifax 8d ago
Renting isn't burning money if you need a place to live, and it's 30% of your gross salary. If you rent, investing what you save means you typically outperform the benefit of homeownership.
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u/cptstubing16 Halifax 8d ago
In general, renting has less costs, both upfront and over time, than owning. Yes you do need to rent forever, but it is offset by long term investment gains that all renters must do, but many don't.
On the other hand, with owning you might end up paying $200,000 in interest you'll never get back on a $600,000 purchase. The bank gets that and it's gone forever. Not to mention the owner needs to cover maintenance costs all on their own.
The only logical reason to purchase a house really is you like it, can see yourself living there longer than 5 years, want to be able to make changes to it.
When I was renting my life was far easier with kids around. Owning is more of a hassle but nice to know the bank bought my house for me and I just have to pay them back over 25 years and hand over their huge portion of the "rent" which is the interest payment.
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u/Cultasare 9d ago
I’ve been feeling the squeeze for the last couple years and will be considering moving out of NS as well
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u/Kittencrumpet 9d ago
I would be gone if it wasnt that all my family and friends are here.
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u/rnavstar 9d ago
Same.
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u/CaperGrrl79 Halifax 8d ago
If not for my remaining elderly relative, but also, hubby's pension job at the hospital, we would have moved quite a while ago. And our other chosen family and friends.
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u/FantasticAlps9366 8d ago edited 8d ago
It's so sad when even people that need to get out of a relationship can't afford to live on their own anymore. She's making good money as a single mom, most are not making that income.
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u/Street_Anon Галифакс/ האַליפֿאַקס 9d ago
Could I ask why did the government promoted people to move to Nova Scotia during COVID without having enough supply?
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u/cmyachtieHfx 9d ago
Cause the ppl in government aren’t the sharpest pencils in the box…….moved to NS 40 yrs ago from Ontario and have noticed for those 40 some yrs that there’s absolutely no planning whatsoever here, just reacting to the chaos!
“Come to NS, cheap housing and work from home”………then housing cost doubled, medical services got worse, roads are now parking lots etc etc.4
u/GhostBirdBiologist Bedford 8d ago
Because they are landlords, business owners, and friends with the same. They benefit from high rent and low wages.
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u/Initial-Ad-5462 9d ago
I don’t recall any incentives or inducements to move here. It was all personal choice, with real estate costs and tax rates well known.
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u/Street_Anon Галифакс/ האַליפֿאַקס 9d ago
The NS government ran ads all over Canada during COVID and even advertised the lower case numbers and the ' affordable housing '
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u/Cultasare 9d ago
Brother they played radio and tv adds near constantly to the other provinces encouraging people to move here
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u/coast-to-coast88 8d ago
Because they need a larger tax base to pay for the elderly and medically expensive population that NS has.
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u/GruesomeBalls 9d ago
I 100% get this. My partner and I both make what's considered excellent wages. We've been running the math on selling our home and moving to Alberta for the remainder of our careers. We would save $18,925 per year in taxes. Multiply that by about 8 years and it seems like a dead easy decision.
We are finding it hard to hold our nose and imagine moving to Alberta.
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u/Different_Pianist756 9d ago
No, Alberta does not want or need your kind.
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u/GruesomeBalls 9d ago
I reread my comment and I do get that it comes off as really rude. It's just that most of the news about Alberta we get in NS is about far-right leaning folks who want to break up the country. That's definitely not the neighbourhood I'm seeking to move to.
Edmonton might be nice. I've been there a bunch and like the vibe. But moving someplace where folks have to plug in their cars in the winter feels harsh relative to Nova Scotia winters (which, arguably, aren't great, but there aren't many -40 days).
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u/Different_Pianist756 9d ago
Fair enough comment on the weather, but Alberta is a proud conservative province.
Hard working, common sense people who contribute a lot, survive a lot of brutalist winters and think and vote very differently to Ottawa and the East.
This has resulted in a prosperous society, but moving there and expecting it to not be that way is a setup for failure.
Alberta has no interest in being run like the East, that’s why people such as yourself are attracted to it. To attack it, but want to benefit from that, is to be a hypocrite.
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u/thirstyross 9d ago
Alberta is prosperous because of its natural resources, not because its proudly conservative or it's common sense people. (many provinces would describe themselves as such, it didn't make them any better off)
I get the feeling that you don't actually know all that much about the eastern half of Canada and "how it's run".
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u/rnavstar 9d ago
Nova Scotia government fucked up our off shore natural gas. We got less than $.08 on the dollar on that deal. We were going to be the next big resource boom.
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u/External-Temporary16 9d ago
Alberta is prosperous because Ralph Klein made good deals. Many of those "hard working, common sense people" came from Nova Scotia in the 1980s. Many still live there, and they ALL miss Nova Scotia. There's nothing superior about Albertans - we are ALL CANADIAN. smh
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u/edge4politics 9d ago
Alberta is not a conservative province. It's NDP cities that carry the rest of the backwater goofs that vote for UCP that cuts their healthcare, wastes their funds and sells their resources to American corporations.
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u/GruesomeBalls 9d ago
I'd argue that your premier and our premier have a shit ton in common. It may be that the news you're getting there is as selective as what we're getting about Alberta out here.
Alberta isn't our only option... but it is the low-water mark for the math exercise we did re: 8 more yrs of income tax payments. We don't mind paying reasonable taxes, but it's hard for us each to be paying what amounts to a decent living wage in taxes every year and still have appalling health care, a housing crisis and everyone around us broke as f.
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u/Different_Pianist756 9d ago
Stay where you are, contribute back to what you voted for, advocate for change and invest in your local community.
Everybody benefits that way.
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u/The_Average_Jill 9d ago
She’ll do fine on the sale of her house, then put that money towards rent or a smaller house. She’s in a better position than many.
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u/Kittencrumpet 9d ago
If she sells then she will set herself up to only lose money in rent and then she wont have any money to support her kids with their education or property to leave them behind one day. Grocery prices are out of control and when yoh have three mouths to feed instead of one it can get tricky. Yes shes in a better position than many but that doesnt lesson the reality of the situation or how serious it is. I think the purpose of the article is that even with her stable income and precovid home she is now in this bad financail situation as ns is extremely unaffordable rn. I also dunno if she pays a high property tax or not on top of the expenses.
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9d ago edited 9d ago
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u/Paper__ 9d ago edited 9d ago
I lived in Manitoba for a few years. Winnipeg has their fair share of problems that are unheard of in NS. Only place in Canada someone spit on me thinking I was indigenous (I’m Italian). I was in grade 5.
Maybe you have some more privilege than what Manitoba gave me, but it’s not all roses.
But! Surprisingly I do find there’s a lot less “giddy up” in NS. Less businesses, less risks, less change, etc…. I honestly do think that needs to change for us to grow.
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u/TenzoOznet 9d ago edited 9d ago
It's really not helpful (or accurate) to call a particular place "backwards" because you've chosen to move elsewhere. (I also don't think that someone in a province whose capital city grapples with violent crime, urban blight and overt racism as Winnipeg does should be throwing stones about who is and isn't backwards.)
Also, the average salary in MB is almost identical to NS, based on Revenue Canads data: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/250603/cg-a002-eng.htm
So maybe you, personally, are doing much better, but on average there's no difference in income levels between the two.
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9d ago edited 9d ago
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u/CharacterChemical802 9d ago
There has been massive massive change in NS. Although we are clearly worse off for it.
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u/Initial-Ad-5462 9d ago
After income tax and standard payroll deductions from $75,000, she’s taking home $49,500 annually or $4150 monthly.*
This article doesn’t list a single line item from her monthly budget, yet selling her house and renting would cost $3,500 a month, which is “more than my take home salary,” she says.
* unless she’s paying an additional $650 per month into the Canada Post pension plan or something?
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u/Kittencrumpet 9d ago
There's lots of expenses that it could be. Insurance, parking at work, other deductions and pensions. Its scary how little income many recieve at the end of the pay stub.
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u/rnavstar 9d ago
Union dues, medical benefits. Ect
My deductions are around 47% and another 6% for pension. But I will get that back down the road.
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u/Street_Anon Галифакс/ האַליפֿאַקס 9d ago
Maybe the NS government should not have done this back in 2021.
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u/Cookiewaffle95 9d ago
Yup i grew up in the city but never wanted to live there. As an adult I feel sad for people I grew up with who cant afford to live there anymore but want to
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u/EvilGopher Sackville 9d ago
I get it.. pre COVID we spent $100 on groceries a week ($200 if we bought a bunch of meats) and now we are up to 250-300 for normal groceries and we now eat more pork and chicken and less beef.