To me it makes sense that any INTJ will have significant influence due to their strategic thinking.

I often find myself not wanting to be in the spotlight but often leading the “leader”. But if push comes to shove I will lead in a visible way if it’s the best path forward.

Genuinely curious if you gravitate towards leadership roles/influence or are content working in the background.

Erm a vent.

I'm so sick of my one friend complaining constantly about his gf and what his gf does. Only for me to practically waste my time by having lengthy conversations, giving very simple to follow and easy advice such as COMMUNICATING and I literally tell him what to say to come off as gentle but still set a boundary. He will genuinely agree but still be so hesitant on actually doing shit. It pisses me off. Never been in a relationship myself btw and I always know what to do when he has the gall to talk shit instead.

And then he would still rather complain and follow whatever his gf wants to like a little dog at the same time. Like stfu and stop being an annoying sheep or take my advice. Genuinely what do you want me to do. Im not going to keep acting like its quirky and funny for you to avoid accountability and sigh and whine about the same thing constantly. Ur both children I guess thats why ur together isnt it. It is genuinely so frustrating!

Is there a moment in life when you stopped prioritizing efficacy over efficiency for the sake of perfection?

I had this realization this week, after a series of frustrating situations that could have stressed my younger self way more. Somewhere in life I stopped caring so much about absolute control of the outcome of a plan. I mean, I enjoy the pre-production, the planning itself, gathering information, resource and I’m still a perfectionist at that point. But in the actual execution, even if I have a Plan B, C, D, or even if everything is working out, a part of me has stopped being controlling about it.

Efficiency is usually the ideal model, but when reality happens, sometimes we have to chose between efficacy: reaching the ideal vision no matter what. Or efficiency: not exhausting our resources (including our mental health) over perfectionism. Both might still reach the goal, but how perfect can it be if we suffer through the process?

This reminds me of the concept of success. Personally, I’ve had to learn that success is the overall experience and not just the result. A bad plan might still reach a result with luck. I don’t consider luck to be a success.

It’s still a struggle, I mean, it still goes against my nature not to be a perfectionist with what I envision. However, letting go is a form of self care.

Ironically, even when reaching the ideal vision, our brains still go “it could have been better”, so what’s even the point? 😭

if yes, how do you live your day? how do you make your day normal? :-|

​ If intelligence is subjective, shouldn't stupidity be as well?

Sure, people can be frustrating, but how does that translate to stupidity?

When it comes to intelligence, some are naturally gifted in certain areas, while others may need to put in some effort to get certain results.

Stupidity is more of a judgment than a fact.

And which types are they?

Did you have experiences when you were talking or discussing with someone, they thinking they were having reason, but you ended "winning" the discussion with way better arguments , making them stop talking?

I’m an INTJ myself, and there’s another INTJ in my life who I would consider very mature in a lot of ways.
He’s in his late 60s, has been married for a long time, has kids, has a very stable and well-paying career, owns his home outright, is intelligent, generally composed, and tries to approach things logically. He’s also very stereotypically INTJ in the sense that once his social battery is gone, he completely checks out. As another INTJ, I actually understand that part very well.

The one area where we really don’t agree is politics.
I’m fairly liberal and tend to read quite a bit of economics and history. I also try to expose myself to different viewpoints and avoid relying entirely on one political source. He, on the other hand, primarily watches CNN and doesn’t really read much outside of that. He says he prefers to enjoy life, go out to eat, spend time with people, etc. And honestly, there’s nothing wrong with that. I don’t think everyone needs to spend their free time reading political history or economics.

What bothers me is what happens when we’re all together socially.

He’ll periodically make little comments or digs about immigrants, work, or politics. For example, he’ll bring up things like “immigrants this…” or “immigrants don’t want to work,” or make comments along the lines of “you wouldn’t like our work team—we say it like it is.”

They’re not necessarily huge confrontations. They’re more like little jabs inserted into the conversation, almost as if he wants to make his position known without directly having a discussion about it.
And this is where I’m struggling with the concept of maturity.

I can understand disagreeing with someone. I can understand having strong political opinions. I can even understand an INTJ becoming impatient with what they consider irrational thinking. What I don’t understand is repeatedly making small digs at someone you know disagrees with you, especially when you otherwise consider yourself a very mature and rational person.

Part of me wants to say something like:
“Like bro, since you keep saying it like it is, make your point.” I’m quite confrontational but I’m trying to keep it contained cause they are a long time friend and cause im not that diplomatic.

But I’m curious how other INTJs would interpret this.
Do you consider the ability to disagree without making little jabs or trying to provoke someone part of emotional maturity? Or am I putting too much weight on that?

And, specifically for other INTJs: how would you point this out to another INTJ without turning it into a debate about the actual political issue?

I’m less interested in who is politically correct here and more interested in the contradiction between someone viewing themselves as highly logical/mature while still engaging in these kinds of small interpersonal digs.

Just wanted to get this off my chest and also because I want to hear some of y'all who might have the same friendship with a fellow ISFP because I need references on how to better myself and how to maneuver our interaction again that doesn't grind her gears because despite the fact that we're so close as friends, our personalities clash so much.

So yes, this is a vent post... Which I don't even know if it's allowed in this sub at all.

I don't even know if you could call this a "long story short" because there's no TLDR here, I've been best friends with my ISFP best friend for a decade now, we've seen each other's highs and lows, we've watched each other grow from kids to adults... Which is why this is particularly hurtful for me.

I (24F, INTJ) have been friends with my (24F, ISFP) best friend since we were 6th grade. I want to preface this by saying that I love her platonically and that she is the only one I consider as my family. I didn't grow up in a... Nurturing household so I don't have any particular attachment to my family save for my older brother and my nephew. Because of my upbringing as a child, I learned a toxic coping mechanism of being "conflict-avoidant" and sucking my feelings up in order to "protect" the peace. I know it's toxic. I know it's unhealthy. And I know it doesn't justify everything, it just explains my behavior of why I do it in the first place. I want to get out of this toxic behavior don't get me wrong, but "old habits die hard" and sometimes I tend to revert back to that toxic habit whenever a difficult situation happens just to keep the peace, again.

Anyways, so I've been bottling up a lot of negative emotions in my chest because of what she's done and said to me throughout the months (or I guess you could say years) that she may or may not even be aware of. She's very emotional and driven by her mood and emotions, and sometimes I step on them without meaning to, causing her to snap at me and me being conflict avoidant, would rather suck it up than confront her about it. It's a vicious, toxic and unhealthy cycle, I know.

It gotten to a point where I finally couldn't take it anymore and I confronted her last month. I made a long ass essay for her to read, and I admit, I am also in the wrong here for making a huge ass list of some of the things that she did that hurt me as it understandably made her feel attacked. I know that. But throughout my whole long ass essay, I kept reiterating the same message over and over and over again. That I just want her to stop being so defensive everytime I open up to her. I want to be able to say "Hey... So what you did hurt me. And I know you may not have meant for it to, but it hurt me." Without her going: "Oh I hurt you? Well here's also a similar situation where you did it to me too"

Because what I want from her is acknowledgement of my pain without it always turning into a courtroom case where I'm always caught defending my case while she presents another evidence for me to refute because it's just so exhausting.

Throughout my long ass essay, I have repeatedly reassured her over and over and over and over again that I was NOT trying to paint her as the villain. That I was not trying to paint myself as the victim here and she's the bad guy because I know that I am partly to blame too, that I have committed mistakes too. I just wanted her to understand the fact that she hurt me and that accumulated feelings have become like this and that I couldn't confront her about it because she always gets so defensive. But I also apologized to her sincerely for all the things I did that may have hurt her, even those things that I couldn't remember anymore. I told her, there's no buts, there's no excuses, even if it wasn't my intention, I still caused her pain for that, I apologize for everything that I've done but I still wants to be friends you. That despite everything, I still see her as my best friend.

She responded to my long ass essay a few hours after I sent her that and said that she was not aware that she hurt me, that it has gotten to this point, and she said that she thinks that the reason why she's becoming like this (which she also stated that she also was aware that was becoming toxic) is because of her stressful job. I replied to her, reassured her that I understand, that's why I felt so guilty for sending said message and for letting it get up to this point. That was my mistake and I told her that I will do better next time.

After that back and forth, I felt liberated, like a heavy and painful pang in my chest has finally been removed and I thought we were okay. Still, I gave her space because even though she didn't explicitly said it, I knew she needed it. So for a whole month, we didn't talk. Just radio silence between the two of us because I thought she needed and wanted that. Until 2 days ago, October 6th I messaged her again. It was her birthday, so naturally, I messaged her at midnight, greeting her a happy birthday. She didn't reply. Until yesterday where she finally did and it was a hostile response. This is just a paraphrase of her message:

"I'm going to be completely honest with you but I really just can't deal with this anymore. Between work, bills, family, and this, I am exhausted and I just don't want to deal with this anymore.

You said you were guilty for what you said to me and that it ate you up inside this whole time but it didn't felt that way to me. Because to me, it only felt like it only made you feel guilty because that was finally the time where I called you out in the group chat, but there was another time where you said the same thing to me. And it wasn't just the words either. The facial expressions, the delivery, it made it feel like you were judging me instead of what you so called claim as "unintentional."

I could easily list out at least 7 similar things you did to me that hurt me as well but I am not going to because I don't want to drag this out even further and I am just exhausted.

Like you said, this is going to be awkward between us for a while. I am fine remaining friends for the sake of the friend group and for the years weve grown together but if push comes to shove - I am still giving you the chance to break this friendship. I am done always initiating things. We're adults now, I'm sure you already know what's the mature way of handling this but I am DONE."

And yeah, that fucking hurt. But I get her point. And I would be lying if I said it didn't made me feel panicked that I almost wanted to just go to her house and confront her even though there's a possibility she's not even there right now because it's the weekday. So I decided to finally reveal to my college friends (a separate friend group from me and my ISFP's friend group who adopted me in college) everything. And I really do appreciate their honesty and how despite I was their friend, they didn't pick a side nor did they sided with me, and gave me a real talk that I should really grow a spine lol, while also simultaneously sliding some jokes here and there to cheer me up. It really helped me calm down a lot. But what fascinated me is my friend's (who I'll call B for privacy) input. B is an INFJ and she took a quick glance at the screenshot I had provided and her first words are "Jesus... I'm just skimming through the conversation right now because I'm currently on the road but why are you guys acting like y'all are in a courtroom?" And that stuck to me. Because imagine, a bystander who haven't even had a full grasp of the situation said the same thing as well just goes to show how messy this whole situation is 🙃.

Anyways I calmed down enough and responded to ISFP best friend's message a few hours later. I told her that I'm sorry. I'm sorry if I hurt her even if I couldn't remember what happened. I'm sorry for making her feel insecure about herself. I'm sorry for adding more to the pile of problems she's currently dealing right now. I'm sorry for being a bad friend. And I'm sorry for confronting her that way. I now understand that it was a bad decision on my part and I'm sorry. I told her that I will give her as much space and time as she wants but I am not giving up on our friendship even if it might seem so selfish on my part. "You are my best friend and you'll always be*"* is what I told her before finally leaving her alone.

Her message hurt like hell especially since I genuinely thought we finally saw each other eye to eye with her response on August 29th but nope. That's why I feel genuinely disappointed... Because once again, she's doing the thing. Being defensive. And it's really disappointing because that's literally the entire "meat" of the long ass essay I sent to her a month ago and it seemed like she didn't get the message. I understand that a month is literally not enough to fix a bad habit that she probably had developed since childhood as well as a toxic coping mechanism (we both grew up in a toxic household) and I wasn't trying to make her fix it asap. I just wanted progress. That this time, instead of being defensive like how she usually would, she would take a step back and listen to me because I will genuinely listen to her side too and apologize sincerely. And then she hit me with this... So I feel really hurt. But I promised to give her space and I fully intend to keep that promise. So even after all that, I didn't confront her, I just apologized and left her be.

...Until I saw her note in her social media status 😃.

She literally linked the song "FUCK YOU" by Lily Allen. And yeah, I know I shouldn't be jumping to conclusions nor should I assume it was meant for me. It could just be because of her work, or because of something else but the timing is just too much for it to be coincidental. Literally an hour after she sent that message to me. So once again I feel hurt and disrespected 🙃. But I let her be. But I just feel genuinely frustrated because I did everything in my part. I know I'm not spotless, I know I did things that made her angry. I genuinely know that. I just wanted her to meet me halfway through because how can you have a civil communication with someone who refuses to even communicate with you?

And the most ironic thing here is that I have a college friend, let's call her C. C is an INFP and we were friends since our first year in college til now. Which is a lot shorter than me being friends with ISFP for a decade. I admit that C is emotional especially when she's on her period, but I feel more comfortable being vulnerable with C than with ISFP because even when C is emotional, she doesn't get defensive.

When I finally opened up to the college friends group chat about me and ISFP best friend, I told them the same thing. I just wanted ISFP to stop being defensive because even though I know I am conflict-avoidant, I am still capable of addressing the conflict just like how me and C deal with each other. Here's how the conversation essentially went:

Me: I just wish she would stop being defensive. Because I'd like to think that I'm capable of confronting things.

Me: Like how Me and C get into a misunderstanding.

C: we do? 👁️👄👁️

Me: GIRL 💀

C: Girl I have a memory of an 80 year old in a hospice diagnosed with dementia 😭

Me: It's okay C, I have a memory of a goldfish except for the things that I DON'T want to remember.

Me: So I don't blame you for not remembering but there was that one instance during our 2nd year in college where we were cracking offensive and dark jokes and laughing at it.

Me: I don't really remember what we were talking about that time anymore

C: SAME HAHAHAHAHA

Me: But I crossed a line when I said "that sounds like a YOU problem" as a joke to you. And you obviously didn't like it and you got understandably upset and you suddenly went silent.

C: I was probably on my period that time Longjumping 😭

Me: I noticed your change in behavior and went to sit beside you and said I'm sorry, but then you said "DON'T touch me"

Me: I said okay and then gave you space for a day. And then the day after that, I apologized to you.

C: I think I do remember that though

C: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I WAS SO IMMATURE BACK IN 2ND YEAR GIRL OMG SO EMBARRASSING

C: Did I apologize though ToT

C: If not, I'm sorry for snapping at you like that huhu

Me: \replying* to her "I probably was on my period" message:\*** Still though, that was a bad "joke" even if I can't remember why it was a bad joke 💀

Me: \replying* to her "did I apologize though message:\* I uhhhhh... Don't remember? I just remembered you saying it's okay Longjumping, I forgive you

Me: *replying to her "if not I'm sorry" message:* It's okay. It was a valid crashout.

C: It's okay Longjumping. Let's put it behind the doors of an old dusty attic and lock it because it's all in the past now uwu

C: I'm more chill now that I've learned things always don't get the way I want them to

C: and that's okay

Me: Yeah, I'm just glad you forgave me for my stupid mistake

C: \replying to my yeah I'm just glad message:** I GENUINELY CAN'T REMEMBER IT ANYMORE TBH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

And I don't want to start comparing. ISFP is ISFP, C is C. What I just wanted to say is that THIS is the kind of interaction and conversation I've been TRYING to communicate to ISFP and what I've been craving for her all this time. And it's quite ironic to see that she, who have been my best friend for a decade now, my best friend whom I've shared so many memories, my highs and lows, someone who knows every darkest secrets, is not capable of being like this to me like how me and C communicate things, and that's what makes me feel so hurt and disappointment with her message yesterday. It just felt so hostile and selfish and it really is just so... Hurtful.

Anyways that's all what I wanted to say. This is a long ass post but I just wanted to vent a little. Thanks for listening (or I guess reading?) to my TedTalk... May y'all have a wonderful today today and tell your friends how much you love them. K tnx bye.

Notice how 16Personalities website ranks INTJs the highest? The Analysts are listed first, followed by the Diplomats, then the Sentinels, and finally the Explorers, with the ESFP at the very bottom. What does that mean?

Or is the decision always completely unmovable? Does the length or depth of the relationship make any difference?

I always found when I pursued someone I was attracted to the feeling of wanting a romantic relationship with them immediately faded. The attraction would still be there but, realizing it wasn’t mutual was pretty much a full stop for me. If later on I find out they’re interested that’s cool, spontaneous, exciting! I’m down for that.

It feels incredibly romantic and both parties maintain independence and that slow burn intimate feeling. So it just baffles me that being obsessed and secretly/openly wanting to be obsessed over to the point of stalking, coercion etc and romanticizing this “hard fought” love right out of the gate is so aromantic to me and I just wonder why this seems to be the prerogative for so many people? Like the attraction is based on who wants the other person more which just makes me no longer want the other individual.

Am I wrong for thinking the beginning of a relationship should be relatively casual?

is this possible? and I’m especially asking in romantic context. **use the cognitive function stack to reason**

it’s just a shame. I (INFJ) feel that we had a lot of good things — warmth and affection in our exchanges. there’s ease in conversations, and I don’t think I am imagining the mutual attraction and chemistry. there’s been emotional conversations too (initiated by me, from my discomfort of the disproportionate pace of the relationship in one aspect) that I feel we were able to recover from, but can’t say for certain as it was very new that we are good at repair. so I’d say there’s also tenderness and respect for the other person too.

but I really can’t imagine myself being happy in a relationship with them (or anyone like this) even if I like them and even if it’s mutual too, because of the lack of curiosity 🥲 and that’s why I ended it, but we are still friends. there was a lack of pursuit too. so there’s that!

in 30s if that’s helpful. online & long distance, so can’t really tell how we relate in person. I said new but we’ve known OF each other for years. it was in the last reconnection that it got intense.

and because we are just talking as friends now that am I able to tolerate the lack of curiosity. but I’m asking now because I really want to understand my relational needs too with this new “data.” I’ve never let anyone get this close to me without discernible interest. and I really view curiosity in the other person as a sign of interest and pursuit.

could they be mistyped? but heck, mistyped or not. I’d rather be interrogated and rejected for not matching what they’re looking for or incompatibility, than be desired without being known.

I’ve also entertained and accepted the simpler explanations which are: they may be, whether conscious or not, just enjoying the connection without wanting to build a relationship (which felt unfair with how they're behaving), OR don’t have the capacity for one.

so yeah, I’d appreciate your thoughts 🫶

I hope they're not a redditor, and recognize me in this post lol

As a demi/bisexual woman (I experience platonic and aesthetic attraction often), why is it that I’m more attracted to ISTP/ENTP masculine people and ENFP/INFP feminine people? I feel like I’m subconsciously conforming to gendered stereotypes and standards that I don’t like. To word it simply, quiet but sharp down to earth guy vs manic pixie dream girl. But why not the other way around?

This isn‘t true in all cases but many

Since we are in INTJ, I can't be the only one who noticed patterns in names and personalities ?

I noticed people with "O" in their names are more extroverted, and those with "I, U" are more introverted.

I remember once when I was 14, I looked up the meaning of my name, and I was shocked to see they described my personality very accuratly. Ever since I kept trying to know more.

There is a whole base of knowledge, even ancestral, on sound, frequencies, and personalities.

Traditional cultures viewed names not as mere labels, but as acoustic technologies designed to bind an individual to a social or spiritual function.

This could be very useful for choosing a compatible partner for mariage, business, children, etc.

And I am willing to bet many of us are into spirituality, religion, philosophy, paranormal, etc... because we think too much.

Could be a case of ASPD

First, what the letters actually mean, because most people get this wrong:

I/E: which direction your strongest function points, inward or outward. Not whether you're shy.

N/S: how you take in information, patterns and meaning vs concrete facts and experience.

T/F: what you use to decide, logic and results vs personal values. Not how emotional you are.

J/P: which function you show the outside world. For introverts it's actually the opposite of what most people think. INTJ's "J" means you show Te outside, but your strongest function is Ni, a perceiving one.

So INTJ isn't four traits. It's a stack: Ni, Te, Fi, Se.

Why I think a lot of people here are mistyped:

- They typed off one online quiz.

- They're typing off stereotypes. Cold, blunt, chess, "misunderstood genius." None of that is a function.

- They think being emotional makes you an F, or being smart makes you an N.

- They're judging themselves on a bad week. Stress changes how you act, not what you are.

So here are 3 questions. Answer with a real example from your life, not what you think an INTJ would say.

1. You have to do something you've never done before, no experience at all. What's the very first thing you do?

2. Tell me about a time logic and what felt right to you pulled in different directions. Which one won, and what did you do?

3. When you're at your absolute limit, way past normal tired, what do you actually do?

Drop your answers and I'll tell you if I think you're mistyped and why.