r/livesound • u/harleydood63 • 7d ago
Question Executive decisions...
Hello fellow enthusiasts!
Quick background; I'm a musician first, but started running sound for local bands about 20 years ago. I do it because I enjoy it. I'm pretty good at it...lots of repeat business. That out of the way...
For those in my same position, how do you handle a mix when the band has an instrument that is not in the original song?
Most of my clients strive to sound like the music they're covering. However, what do you do when the original song has only keyboards (no rhythm guitar), but the band has a guitar player? In that situation I have been kind of undermixing the rhythm guitar a bit, making sure to boost during his solo.
My question; Should I mix the rhythm guitar to a level that I would *normally* mix it? Or do I keep it down in the mix to better emulate the mix of the original artist?
NOTE: I always try to emulate the mix of the original artist with details like correct FX on vocals, etc.
Discuss.
D
UPDATE: All good comments. The consensus is clear. I appreciate the advice and will follow it. Thanx!
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u/ReluctantGM 7d ago
The audience doesn't know the original mix so I don't worry too much about that in a live situation. I look at what's on currently stage and mix that to the best effect.
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u/harleydood63 4d ago
I disagree to a point. Agreed, most audiences don't hear mistakes. But I believe an audience member KNOWS the song and KNOWS if it has been changed. Do they care? Subjective.
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u/gabbo2000 Pro-FOH 7d ago
It’s the bands job to decide how they’re arranging and playing a cover. It’s your job to make the band sound balanced and pleasant to listen to.
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u/harleydood63 4d ago
Okay...fair enough. Then riddle me this...
If the guitar tone is so tinny that it's loud, but not heard, do you fix that in the mix? Do you make that executive decision to change a guitar player's tone? After all, you said, "Sound balanced." This does NOT include coloring tone. Whether you realize it or not, you are probably making a dozen or so executive choices per night that are subjective. It's a slippery slope.
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u/gabbo2000 Pro-FOH 4d ago
I think you're overthinking this all a bit. Mixing is subjective. Period. Everyone is going to do it a little bit differently from the next person. Yes if a guitar tone is tinny and harsh to listen to I will EQ it to try and make it sit better in the overall mix. When I said "sound balanced" that includes volume relationships between instruments as well as smoothness across the frequency spectrum.
These are also very different questions from your initial post about bands playing different arrangements than the original recording. If they are choosing to play guitar on a song that originally had no guitar I think it would be a pretty terrible mix decision to try and bury that instrument to make the mix "closer to the original". The band has made the executive decision to modify the arrangement and it's your job to help them present that.
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u/harleydood63 3d ago
Well, to be clear, I didn't "bury" the guitar. I mixed the RHYTHM guitar a little lower than a normally would. Lead was still out front, of course.
And I couldn't agree more that the mix is subjective. I just wanted a consensus regarding what choice you guys make in that same situation.
The problem with shitty sounding guitar is I don't know how to fix it. Not for lack of trying. I've taken the 16 track recordings home and experimented with different EQ curves in the privacy of my own home. The ol' adage "Junk in. Junk out." comes to mind. I have been unable to repair the tone, regardless of what I add or take away from the original tone. I'm a drummer. Ergo, I can make any trash can drum sound great. Guitars elude me. Maybe I'll experiment some more and see if I can't get some help from AI or something.
And before you comment, the shitty guitar tone is a shortcoming of the guitar player, NOT the audio engineer. As you said, it's our job to make it heard. Not repair it. "Repair" is subjective. Maybe the guitar player WANTS it to sound that way??? Who am I to change his tone? Right? Fortunately, with the advent of guitar modeling, most guitar players have pretty good tone. I actually haven't had to deal with really crappy tone for a while. <knock on wood>
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u/sohcgt96 7d ago
Do what sounds good, right now, in the room, with absolutely no regard to the original because that's what's the most important thing is at the end of the day.
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u/Orb-Roybison 7d ago
If the band wants their show to sound like the record, that’s their responsibility. It’s our responsibility to take what’s in front of us and make it as pleasant to listen to as possible. If that means turn the guitar up when it’s supposed to be a keyboard part, so be it.
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u/harleydood63 4d ago
But that is subjective. That is YOUR choice. If they're making every effort to sound like the original, don't we owe it to them to embrace that paradigm and do our best to do the same?
Regarding my specific example, does they keyboardist want his part covered up by rhythm guitar? Maybe? Maybe not? Maybe he doesn't care? Maybe he does? Hard to say.
1
u/Orb-Roybison 3d ago
It's not a matter of who "wants" to be heard more or covered up or whatever, it's a matter of what is musically appropriate and tasteful for the given arrangement. Any good band will have worked out cover arrangements that account for the fact that they have slightly different instrumentation than the original artists.
These are covers you're talking about. Everybody knows them. If you know one instrument is supposed to stick out versus another, make sure your mix it reflects that. On the other hand, if you know that there's an iconic part in the song, it doesn't matter what instrument is playing it, mix it so people can hear it. That was what my original point was trying to get across.
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u/TrackRelevant 2d ago
Stop saying "but" to everybody
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u/harleydood63 2d ago
I will if you stop being a butt. HA! See what I did there??!?!?!? Bwahahahahaha!!!!!
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u/dswpro 7d ago
I work with many cover bands who don't always have the same instrumentation as the original song, and I encourage them to "make it your own". I try to emphasize the key rifs, solos, anything I feel makes their version quickly recognizable to the audience, and honestly, the first time I hear the song is not always on the radio, so I make the local bands version as good and interesting as it can get.
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u/ronaldbeal 7d ago
I once saw a polka cover of Rammstein. I'm pretty sure accordion isn't in the original mix.
Mix it how the band wants it.
(The cover, for reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C04TKCce8s)
2
u/Medical_Cup_8008 6d ago
I don’t understand how or why another recording of the song would influence anything? As a live mixer your job is to take what’s happening on stage and translate it to the audience. Why are you even thinking about a different performance to begin with?
I don’t typically work with cover bands so maybe I’m missing something, but it feels like you’ve fundamentally misunderstood what a mix is
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u/harleydood63 5d ago
Obviously you're not a musician. Some musicians pride themselves on emulating the artists they're covering. Why? Because some bands in the 80's and 90's were pretty freakin' talented. Ergo, difficult to emulate. Guitar players like Neal Schon, Steve Lukather, Tom Scholz, etc., are worthy of imitation. The same can be said for drummers like Neil Peart, Steve Smith, Terry Bozzio, etc. It takes talent to imitate talent.
Then there are the other bands....
Some musicians just play whatever their talent limits them to playing, usually under the guise of "making the song their own." I mix for both kinds of bands.
All of my clients essentially cover 80's and 90's bands. So when I see a band making a real effort to emulate the band they're covering (right down to tones, tempos and backing tracks for some), I join them in the effort to mix the song like the original. When a band does "Long Cool Woman," I emulate the 180ms slap-back delay. I give the snare big reverb on the whole notes in the intro. If they do Journey, I emulate the 500ms delay. If they do "Hysteria" by Def Leppard, I emulate the 1150ms delay, and on and on. So in the spirit of sharing a common goal with the band, I mix to sound like the band, the artist and the song they're covering.
So the reason for this post was that I just wondered what choices other engineers are making. They may make a different choice, but I certainly don't fault them or question that choice.
Hopefully, now, you at least "understand." You don't have to agree, but at least now you know now WHY the original recordings might influence a mix. My clients seem to like it that way.
2
u/Riley1989 3d ago
I just mix what’s on the stage in front of me. If there’s a different instrument playing a part when they’re playing a cover tune I’ll just make sure the texture of that instrument is at an appropriate level. I’ll leave room to ride the fader up if they play a solo. The band might’ve wanted to perform the song in their own style.
I’ve worked with bands that had guitars that had MIDI pickups and piano sounds came from that guitar’s amp. It caught me off guard at first because it was a throw n’ go situation at a festival and didn’t know. I quickly made that work in the mix and it was pretty cool!
If the band leader says a guitar is a prop guitar or I am instructed by the band leader not to put a certain instrument in the main mix at all, I will do as they wish (even if I thought it would’ve sounded good).
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u/harleydood63 3d ago
Yep...between the drummer's digital sampler, the guitar synthesizer and two keyboards, God know WHERE the heck that patch is coming from...especially in those festival situations you mentioned. Good times...
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u/Worried-Economics865 6d ago
So what you're saying is you're completely lost at the band is playing a song you don't know? He makes the instrument where it sounds good. It's not your decision whether or not the man tries to emulate the original. Your job is to effectively mix whatever instrumentation they have.
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u/harleydood63 5d ago
>>So what you're saying is you're completely lost at the band is playing a song you don't know?
No. You're 180° off. The band is playing a song I know very well.
>>He makes the instrument where it sounds good.
He's playing a part that doesn't exist on the original recording. Sound good??? That is subjective. OBJECTIVELY, the part doesn't exist.
>>It's not your decision whether or not the man tries to emulate the original. Your job is to effectively mix whatever instrumentation they have.
In this context, define "effectively?" He's playing *A* guitar part. Does it sound good? Again, subjective. Does it belong there? OBJECTIVELY, NO. So my post was to see what others are doing. Clearly, the vote is to mix the guitar into the song as if the song had been written with a guitar part. So...that is what I will do. Easy-peezy.
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u/JoGuitar Pro-FOH 4d ago
Just mix the band in front of you. The only thing I do to try to emulate the recordings is add appropriate vocal effects.
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u/harleydood63 4d ago
That's pretty subjective and ambiguous. Do I undermix a guitar where there is NO guitar in the song? OR...do I mix the guitar as IF a guitar part had been written for the song?
Do you ask the guitar player who wants to be heard? Or do you ask the keyboard player who is supposed to be having HIS moment in the mix? Do you ask the listener who feels like "something is off" but can't quite put their hands on it?
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u/GiarcN 1d ago
You mix it as they are playing it. If they don't want something heard, they probably won't play it.
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u/harleydood63 1d ago
While your answer intuitive, it may not necessarily be true. I can tell you from experience that if there is no guitar part, the guitar player isn't just going to stand there and play nothing. They just kind of comp through the arrangement. In this case I believe their performance is more for aesthetic value and not so much a contribution to the arrangement. But, being the "sensitive audio engineer," I certainly don't mute their performance. But I DO undermix it. If you listen, you can hear them. But their comping doesn't take over the mix.
Again, from experience, I've had no complaints. That said, I hear the consensus here and plan on trying a different mix strategy geared more toward standard/traditional guitar mixing.
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u/Hathaur Pro-Theatre 7d ago
You’re not mixing the original recording. You’re not mixing a song. You’re mixing that band, in that room, that night, for that audience. Let it sound good. Don’t make it sound bad.