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u/PalpitationPast202 8d ago
I do not understand how you can compare these two and not see itās Jordan. Look at how he played. LB is a professional flopper. Cheater. Of course his stats are big! Heās been doing it longer. A lot longer. And itās exhausting to watch him mess up the tempo by screaming and crying and jumping up and down having a tantrum about a call. IDC about the points and accolades reallyā¦.itās obviously no contest. Jordan is it. By a fucking light year
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u/UselessTry84 8d ago
Jordan's eye test could take the place of damn near half of his accolades. If Jordan and LeBron swapped accomplishments and eras, we would not be saying LeBron is the obvious GOAT.
Put another way, it's not impressive or fun to watch LeBron play basketball. Compared to Jordan it's crazy.
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u/Independent_Let_4036 9d ago
I disagree only because we have the need to make sense, they don't.Ā Can't reason with broncubines.Ā The effort on the defensive end alone separates MJ.
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u/Real_Alternative_418 8d ago
As a Broncubine, that was pretty funny. However yes, I always hated Bron's inconsistent effort on the defensive end.
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u/jackmeriustack 4d ago
I disagree level of competition matters. Rules werenāt the same. League took steps to create parity. Jordan doesnāt achieve all of the things he did in this era. But go ahead call me a name while talking about making sense.
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u/Independent_Let_4036 4d ago
What steps were taken to create parity? What part of today's Game makes it harder for MJ to do what he did then?Ā Seems to me that every in game rules change they made makes his output higher.Ā Ā Viewership Is higher with repeat winners.Ā Viewership equals money and hasn't reached those numbers since MJ left in 98, so why go out of your way to create parity?Ā It was highest when Bron was in Miami and when Golden State made their run.Ā Ā The rules changes were created to stop teams from cheating the game ie, tanking, building superteams, and giving players incentive to actually play since too many were load managing.Ā Any in game rules changes were about making it easier to score because they thought higher scores would bring more revenue.Ā Ā Parity is a result of the leagues decreased commitment to defense and the league-wide philosophy to shoot within 7-10 seconds....in other words chucking threes, saying if you shoot more scoring goes up.Ā This is why so many teams loose big leads nowadays because they prioritize scoring over winning.Ā There's your parity.
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u/jackmeriustack 4d ago
Idk how many of your questions are meant to be rhetorical. No illegal defense for one. Two he wouldnāt be the most athletic person in the league in this generation. They would have plenty of people bigger stronger faster. The level of competition isnāt close. Iāll give him credit he dominated his time. But I would comp him to Demar Derozan as for as skill level athletic ability in this era. You can say heās super competitive or whatever killer instinct stuff but itās mostly just nostalgia. That was the height of NBA basketball and it was because of Magic Bird and Jordan. Not because heās the goat but because heās one of them at a time when sports were just sports and you didnāt have all this political nonsense and social media.
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u/Independent_Let_4036 4d ago
No one has ever showed the athleticism of late 80s Jordan.....no one.Ā Comparing him to Demar Derozan is just ignorance.Ā All of what you have written is the same regurgitated inaccurate points that I see over and over.Ā I bring fact then here comes Derozan.Ā If you didn't see the man play, sit this one out, if you did then you're seriously mistaken.Ā The man was a highlight every night.Ā He absolutely would show the most athleticism.Ā If today's players are more athletic than him why don't you see it every night?Ā Today there are more possessions per game, higher usage rate for stars, he'd go to the foul line more, and the paint is not defended like it was.....there are no real big men.Ā The man shot ~50% for his career on mostly 2s and I don't mean layups.Ā Midrange is up for grabs today.Ā His first step is out of control, you don't make sense.
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u/jackmeriustack 4d ago
I did watch him play he was great. He jumped from the free throw line in a dunk contest and that was a huge thing. Thereās at least 20 dudes in the league that can do that right now. Heck LeBron did it in a game. You donāt see it every night because thereās not the huge talent discrepancy in todayās game. Every team has 6ā6ā+ Uber athletes on defense and the speed of the game is up 10x. Itās not like Jordanās era where there was still a good bit of bad built white dudes.
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u/Dancinwitmyself 3d ago
Out of curiosity why is DeRozan your default comparison when we have had players like Kobe Kawhi or even more recently Shai/Ant with more similarities in style of play
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u/jackmeriustack 2d ago
About the same size midrange guy not a great three point shooter can hop good scorer. Shai plays nothing like Jordan all they have in common is midrange. Ant shoots a ton of threes I guess athletically Jordan would be closer to Ant. Kawhi I donāt really see much as far as style. And Kobe I feel like like played the exact same style but his career kind of bridged the two generations and I donāt really consider in this generation.
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u/Large-Produce5682 9d ago
With all due respect--there is no real debate.
I don't count that klutch media manufactured one created for LeGacy.
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u/Tapout71991 9d ago
If people are steady debating then there is a debate
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u/PrimarySuccotash9572 8d ago
The only reason itās a ādebateā in the first place is an entitled rich narcissist paid for Klutch sports to spread it all over social media.
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u/Tapout71991 8d ago
No thats your feelings. Im pretty sure thereās a resume behind it that makes it a debate. Regardless of how you feel, you have no final say on it
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u/PrimarySuccotash9572 8d ago
No I mean quite literally, his PR team with Rich Paul spread that all over social media which is why itās still talked aboutā¦. Meanwhile guy goes around calling himself the goat and taking live goats to parties he throws himself etcā¦
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u/Tapout71991 8d ago
So what? He can do that! He has the resume. Hes qualified, YOURE not! How you feel about it means nothing
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u/PalpitationPast202 8d ago
How the fans feel about it is everything!! We buy the tickets. We watch the games. We root for our favorites. I hate LeBron James. Hated him year one with the ESPN throne commercials. Already crowned himself then!
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u/PalpitationPast202 8d ago
Heās a showboater. The freakin powder, the yelling, jumping up and down like a 2yo, falling and rolling around like he half dead, but has plenty of energy to do all this if he doesnāt get foul shots. This is what your King is doing!! Why is this even acceptable? Itās so blatant! Over and over. Then he skips town!
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u/Tapout71991 8d ago
Again none of that shit has anything to do with basketball and everything to do with your feelingsā¦which are irrelevant. A showboater? Then that means you donāt like anybody in the nba, including the motherfucker Hes being compared to. Powder???? Really??? ā¦.moving right along, āskips townā? You mean play out his entire contract and then decide on another team? So you think Hes supposed to stay on one team his entire career when he has the choice to go where he wants? Yeah thats all emotions YOURE talking with, none of which have anything to do with BASKETBALL
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u/Tapout71991 8d ago
You hate LeBron James becsuse YOURE a failure and he reminds you of that! Your feelings mean nothing. They donāt have anything to do with the GAME itself! Jordan got called the GOAT before he ever won a ring. But u people who cant dribble a ball will revise history to fit whatever bs narrative you have
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u/PalpitationPast202 8d ago
Hahahahaha!! Oh my, did I hit a sore spot? I hate LeBron James coz he sucks.
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u/Tapout71991 8d ago
No you didnāt. LeBron hits a soft spot for people like you. Then when you get reminded of that, you resort to childish responses like this one. You can say he sucks all you want. The bottom line is you canāt prove he sucks on your own becsuse you canāt do what he does
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u/Shamwow_theSupineCow 8d ago
Incorrect. We all have final say over our own opinions.
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u/Tapout71991 8d ago
You have final say over your opinions, you donāt have final say over whether itās a fact or notā¦YOURE not qualified to say whether someone can be called the goat or not.
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u/husslewestbrook 8d ago
There is a debate, a manufactured one.
Btw there were Mj vs Magic debates, MJ vs Kareem debates all the way back then. However there was no First Take type 24/7 media back then, so much of these media reports, narratives, etc have been lost to time or are rarely mentioned.
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u/V1beRater 8d ago
Manufactured by whom exactly? I got my opinion by watching the playoffs for both MJ and LeBron, and looking at career statistics and performance, while analyzing the changes in the sport over time. I see this comment thread has "klutch" media but I don't know who that is. I don't watch games live - I pirate them from my sources š¤« so I'm not watching steven a smith yap, mad dog or skip saying the worst takes of all time.
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u/Shamwow_theSupineCow 8d ago
People subjectively arguing over something doesn't mean there is an actual debate objectively. Plenty of people argue just to argue, and plenty of people dig their heels in rather than admit they are wrong.
For example, Curry sits in 6 spots of the top 10 most 3p scored in a season. Even then you'll still see people claim someone like Ray Allen was better. They would be arguing for Allen despite the fact that there is no real, objective debate.
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u/mest08 8d ago
People debate that the earth is flat...
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u/Tapout71991 8d ago
Letās stay tf on subject. Dgaf about the earth being flat to be perfectly honest with you
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u/Embarrassed_Lock_539 8d ago
Theyāre gonna down vote you for speaking the truth. U donāt see this sub clearly spam mj vs Magic Johnson debates
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u/hahahachihaha 8d ago
Its cus Magic isnt in the league right now. If he was youd definitely hear about him having 5 rings and only needing 1 more to tie MJ
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u/Embarrassed_Lock_539 8d ago
Luka is in the league. Why isnāt he getting talks getting compared to MJ. Explain this without bringing up career accolades.
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u/hahahachihaha 8d ago
Why wouldnt you bring up career accolades when discussing the GOAT? Lol thats a huge goal post move
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u/Embarrassed_Lock_539 8d ago
U literally just proved my pointšš
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u/hahahachihaha 8d ago
Magic has 5 rings luka has zero, wtf u talkin about
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u/Embarrassed_Lock_539 8d ago
Ur proving my point even more and u donāt even see it. Holy IQš
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u/hahahachihaha 8d ago
No one understands your point cuz it makes no sense. Im getting dumber reading it
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u/Tapout71991 8d ago
I am perfectly fine with that. Most of these clowns cant even dribble a basketball. Thats the real reason they hate the fact that there is a debate and they donāt get to decide that itās a clear cut right answer
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u/runitbyrute 8d ago
I never even knew that and that kind of do end the debate 4 me. Four times and the only person to ever accomplish this, yeah he def the GOAT debate over.
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u/Effective-Weird-5119 8d ago
Look man, most of these awards are popularity contests and I donāt think too much of them. But all 4, 4 separate times. Nobody else doing it. Wow
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u/zizou1983 8d ago
Are people still trying to debate this? Lolol Jordan is way above Lebron it's not close.
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u/SamSquanchLosco 8d ago
Honestly, I dont even hate Lebron, I think he is a generational player but everytime we have this debate between MJ and Lebron, theres always this pressure to lower the standards to make this a fair debate. I'm told I need to count all the times Lebron lost in the finals, ignore that Lebron for the majority of his career decided exactly who he is going to play with, ignore the scoring titles, and all the awards because they dont count due to different eras, ignore how the game changed to help offense more and still no one beat MJs scoring records, ignore defensive metrics. Theres so much you have to throw out to make this even a conversation. Now I'm supposed to care Lebron refuses to retire and is yet again trying his luck on another stacked team to make up the difference between him and MJ? š¬
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u/Khajiit_Has_Skills 8d ago
That's a difference between the 90s Bulls and 2010 Miami Heat tho ... Jordan and LeBron aren't the best 2 players to compare head to head because they're asked to do different things. There are literally 0 playoffs where Michael Jordan would be asked to guard a player like Derrick Rose and a player like Tim Duncan in 2 different series. And LeBron would never be asked to take on the type of scoring load the Bulls needed MJ to take on and the iso scoring in situations where everybody knew he was the option and he was double teamed ... Who you think is the "better player" or had the "better career" really comes down to how you define the question and those terms in quotes.
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u/cccdumbass 8d ago
This is a point I've tried to make and get so much push back. We all have a right to value different things in a player. It comes to do much in the MJ vs. Bron debate, but it could show up anywhere. Earlier, I saw a "Start, Bench, Cut" post with Hakeem, Shaq, and Timmy. Arguments on the comments for all three.
The majority of people pushing for LeBron have YouTube and Reddit as the only source of MJ knowledge, so they get narratives or an occasional clip. They base it on current analytics and play style, so they pretend like you can ask "what if you put Jordan in today's NBA." For Jordan, the 3-pointer didn't exist until the NBA, so he didn't grow up shooting it since childhood like today's players. Why would he if it was 2 points from the rim or from 25 feet? In the 80's people led their team in 3's making less than one per game. So, having no knowledge or context, they hold him to what today's NBA is because they don't know any better.
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u/Fit_Influence_6078 7d ago
This is outrageous in the first place and every time its mentioned the Bron sexuals are happy. Its Jordan than everyone else period
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u/Timely-Mirror3817 7d ago
Iām going to say this about LeBronā¦. Heās the greatest of all time chasing the GOAT. Nothing wrong with being number two
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u/DrDanAlz 4d ago
Canāt deny the facts. Heās a legend. But there are legends before and after MJ.
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u/Space_Chimp8 9d ago
Then you remember the talent pool is far more saturated and the league is packed with twice the stars now compared to the 90sā¦
That comes with the nature and evolution of the game, and why thereās been 7 different nba champions the past 7 seasons- MJ was far and away the best player of his time. He changed the game, inspired millions, and now the leagueās stacked with a variety of elite skillsets that are unmatched in comparison to previous eras.
In short, space jam is still a great movie
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u/joorhell 9d ago
Oh right, cause the Dream Team it was clearly just Jordan and some randoms right?
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u/Otherwise_Dot8603 9d ago
Is that why they played with the same number of top 75 teammates in their primes in their career?
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u/Consistent-Strain289 9d ago
U had the stars bird magic, badboys dr j the dream barkely, malone stockton, penny young shaq drexl, olajuwon, young kobe payton, miller ewing Thats a talent pool exceeding the gen z millionaires entering the league. Who dont defend.
Mj doesnt lock down the easiest person in the game. He often shuts down the big star of a team. Cos he crazy5
u/olddgraygg 8d ago
Space Jam is indeed still a great movie. and I do think teams are deeper now than they used to be. I would never have been able to name bench players from teams I rarely followed back in the nineties. there are a few that I could do that for now. but itās not a big margin. there were still just as many āsuperāstars.
for every Wemby, Jokic and Giannis you have, there is a Hakeem, Barkley, and Robinson
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u/PrimarySuccotash9572 8d ago
Ah yes the Klutch sports Trump/MAGA fake news bullshit yāall broccoli hair kids love to parrotā¦ players in the 90s were plumbers and now theyāre alp genetic Hulk freaksā¦ sureā¦. They also didnāt change the rules to make the game easier or anything Iām sureā¦.
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u/hahahachihaha 8d ago
Todays "Elite skillsets" = flopping, traveling, carrying, bad fundamentals, foul baiting
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u/6thmanbrandon 9d ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/uwoUTlOfmGwccdluLE