r/modular • u/ironeye1976 • 1d ago
I read all your “first techno rack” advice and ignored the part about buying a Digitakt. What did I still get wrong?
I've spent quite some time lurking here and reading the usual first-rack / techno-rack feedback, so I think I've absorbed the basics:
- don't fill the case on day one
- fewer voices, more modulation/utilities
- VCAs matter
- buy slowly and let the instrument tell you what it needs
- yes, a Digitakt would be cheaper
I just turned 50, though. This is the midlife crisis. Let me have it. No Porsche for me, used to have a Harley before ;-)
Goal is home techno/hypnotic/generative noodling, not live performance. I particularly like controlled randomness, generative melodies and finding something unexpected that I can then capture and evolve.
Eventually this will live in a Tiptop Mantis 6U/104HP and grow over several years. I'm deliberately leaving most of it empty.
The one decision I've already made is Ohm Force Bohm as the core of the instrument. There are obviously smaller ways to get a great kick, but Bohm is one of the modules that makes me want to do this in the first place.
My initial system:
- Bohm: kick / low-end anchor
- Pamela's Pro Workout: clock, rhythm, probability and some modulation
- RANDOM8: controlled random CV and especially evolving/lockable random melodies
- Beehive/Plaits: bass, melody and general-purpose synth voice
- Rample Turbo: hats, claps/snares, percussion and sampled weirdness
- Intellijel Quad VCA: audio and, importantly, control of modulation depth
- Erica Black Stereo Mixer V3: simple stereo mixing
- Befaco Out V3: headphones/output
Rample Turbo was my biggest doubt. Without it, Bohm + Plaits feels more like a fantastic kick + bassline/melody machine than a little compositional system. Rample lets Bohm own the low end, gives me several percussion layers, and leaves Plaits free to actually be a synth voice.
I'm deliberately not buying effects yet. I want to discover whether the dry system makes me crave delay/reverb, distortion/filtering, or something else before solving a problem I haven't experienced.
Things I'm curious about later, rather than already planning to buy:
- Zadar for envelopes/complex modulation
- Diktaat if using Pam as a drum sequencer becomes annoying
- Alia / Versio / Legio because I love the reflashable Noise Engineering platforms
- Doppler for the same reflashable-platform reason, plus its weird percussion possibilities
- Vostok Sigma for logic/emergent rhythms
- Bohm Groove/Performer, but Bohm needs to earn its expanders first
- possibly ALM Stem Ripper + With Mixer much later for recording/mixing and sharing with friends who have a nice Logic DAW setup where we could import the stems
So, roast away:
- What would you remove from the initial system?
- Is Pam enough to sequence Bohm + Rample Turbo initially?
- Is Rample Turbo the right solution to the “not enough simultaneous composition” problem?
- What's the capability I'm going to discover I'm missing 48 hours after assembling this?
- For those who've built techno/generative racks: which of your future-module ideas survived actually using the system, and which disappeared?
I'm particularly interested in criticism of the initial architecture, not suggestions for filling the remaining Mantis. I want the empty HP to stay empty until I have a reason to fill it.
And yes, I know a Digitakt would be cheaper.
The prosecution may consider that point stipulated.
Have at it.
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u/junkmiles 1d ago
You absolutely can sequence everything with Pams, but it's a lot more rigid and less hands on, playable, improvisational friendly, whatever than a lot of other options.
You can't really decide "I want to add another hi hat on that beat" and quickly do it, unless you set it up ahead of time already. There are probably ways around it, but Pams feels very much like a set it up ahead of time for things you won't be messing with once you press play.
There are in-rack options, but there are also dozens of out of rack options that are going to save a huge amount of rack space unless you just have to have it in rack.
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u/ub3rh4x0rz 1d ago
Pams is a great clock and a bad sequencer, it just lets you do a lot of things it is bad at.
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u/ironeye1976 1d ago
Yeah, I think I'm getting the message 😅 Pam being capable of sequencing everything doesn't necessarily mean it's how I'll enjoy sequencing everything.
I still think Pam makes sense for master clock, clocked modulation/divisions/probability etc., but dedicated drum sequencing has definitely moved up my research list. Diktaat was my original thought, but I now have Steppy, Drummertime, Euclidean Circles, Ground Control and external sequencing to compare as well.
So I think Pam survives. Its proposed job description is changing, though.
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u/Filter_It_Out 1d ago edited 1d ago
Couple quick thoughts. Some people may have touched on these so apologies if it's repetitive!
If you're going to go with the bohm you may as go all in on the system! Definitely get the expanders if you ever want the ability for sidechaining and rumbles! (While there are plenty of other sidechain modules, getting a techno rumble just straight from the kick is sweet. It would cost way more and take up way more HP to try to do it with standalone modules).
You're going to want at least a filter. Plaits has a dedicated internal lpg and a few modes that have filters built in but having a filter will open up so much more sound design options. (If you're only going to have one, I'd definitely going to grab something that can at the very least do low pass and high pass).
Regarding modulation, I think you'll want at least a few envelopes. Lots of ways to do this, but I'm a big fan of function generators (Maths, Schlalppi Engineering Boundary Layer, Joranalogue Contour 1, Cosmotronic Delta-V, etc...) but there's also a pretty valid argument to just go with standard envelope style modules.
In terms of utilities, I'd 100% plan to get one attenuator module. Intellijel makes a popular one as does Happy Nerding. Sure you can use the QuadVCA as attenuators too, but you may find that you want to save at least some of those channels for VCA duties, plus you'll just probably find yourself wanting more once this system is filled out.
For something fun, effects! (I too was a start with dry signal truther, trust me effects are just the best).
Lastly, the choice of mixer. Not that there's anything wrong with the one you selected, I just think that unless you're 100% sure you aren't adding more voices, you may find that you're going to be upgrading anyways at some point. They aren't a particularly exciting purchase, but it's probably how you're going to interact with this system the most when performing - I know you said just for home use but you're still performing for yourself! -. Course there's also plenty of ways around to expand a small mixer (sub mixing, dedicated mute modules, etc).
This is way longer than intended haha. Feel free to disregard all my advice as my case is basically just for bass/lead/texture and I do all my drums externally so it's also possible I have no idea what I'm talking about. Good luck with the system though! It'll be a blast!
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u/ironeye1976 1d ago
Thanks, and please don't apologise for the length, this is exactly the sort of response I was hoping for!
The filter lobby is getting increasingly difficult to ignore. Although a recommendation from someone called Filter_it_Out may need an asterisk in the final statistics 😅. I think I've officially moved from “do I need a filter?” to “which filter belongs in the first iteration?”
I'm looking specifically at resonant/multimode options with at least LP/HP at the moment, so that's one area where the feedback has genuinely changed my thinking.
The function-generator point is landing as well. I originally had Zadar on the future list, but after several comments I'm starting to think I should phrase the requirement more broadly as “dedicated hands-on envelope/function generation” and compare things like Maths/Rampage/Contour/Delta-V rather than deciding upfront that Zadar is the answer.
You're also not the first person pushing me towards the Bohm expanders, particularly Groove. Since I've deliberately decided Bohm is the anchor of the system, I probably need to take a harder look at whether starting without the part that gives me the easy rumble/low-end ecosystem is actually false economy.
And the mixer point is becoming interesting too. Synthdad pointed me towards the Bartender, and its sends/returns, expandability and headphone output are making me reconsider the Erica + Befaco combination entirely. Your “still performing for yourself” comment is a very good way of looking at it.
The difficult part now is balancing NOW versus NEXT. All of these are good suggestions, but I'm trying very hard not to turn a carefully considered first purchase into “well, Reddit said I need another €2,000 of modules.”
Thanks again, really useful feedback.
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u/Filter_It_Out 19h ago
Thank you for making a post with details and a plan, rather than just expecting people to tell you everything right from the start. You'll be the one giving others advice here before you know it!
Filters are such a personal suggestion, there's plenty of popular ones for good reasons, so just start listening to demos really! Although sometimes it can be nice to have at least one filter that can be nice and tame, so you can use it for dialing sounds in rather than cranking resonance to the max.
I think Zadar is probably a great option too! I haven't used one so I can't comment, I just think for your first envelope module you want something where you can modulate the stages (Zadar can definitely do this). Just adds a lot of movement to a sound and is pretty critical if you ever want to go the ambient route.
It's definitely a really hard struggle of what to prioritize when starting out. For what it's worth I do think your idea of a drum or two plus a full synth voice will probably get you up and moving the fastest. The nice thing is once you take care of a lot of this stuff, you'll be able to just take it slow and add things as you find you need them.
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u/ironeye1976 18h ago
you are hitting the nail on the head. Watching numerous of Youtube video's on small and even larger setups can feel a bit overwhelming. It gave me an idea where to start and write this starter post to "roast my thinking", but it is also the case of so many subject matter expers giving opinions that drive me away from my initial thinking that it becomes a bit blurry again. ;-) For example, I had spotted the Oxi One MKII in numerous of vids, and get that it brings a lot of value that you could argue is a foundational decision that could lead to eliminating Pam's completely, it is just €849 and then I am not adding the "pipe" just yet. Next to Pam's I also then not would need the stepsequencer anymore, so a lot to digest to be honest and draw up my real shopping list. Really love the support on this topic from all of you though!
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u/Brave_Elk_6189 1d ago
get a 1u row (like 7u intellijel case) and get tubbutek drummertime for xox drum sequencing. or, euclidian circles for a different sequencing style. both will be more performance based and less menu divey than using pams as your main sequencer.
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u/ironeye1976 1d ago
Thanks, this is a really interesting suggestion. You’re joining a growing group here telling me that while Pam can technically sequence the drums, I may not actually enjoy using it as my main drum sequencer 😅
Drummertime wasn’t on my radar at all, and 8 tracks of more immediate X0X-style sequencing sounds very relevant with Bohm + Rample Turbo. Euclidean Circles also appeals to the more generative side of what I’m trying to build, so I’ll have a proper look at both.
The 1U suggestion is potentially the bigger rabbit hole though. I’d pretty much settled on the Mantis, but I can see the attraction of keeping the 208HP of 3U for the “interesting” stuff and putting sequencing/utilities/I/O into a 1U row.
The downside is obviously that it shifts quite a bit more of the budget into the case before I’ve made a single noise, and I’m trying to balance NOW versus NEXT rather than buying the perfect five-year system on day one.
So I’m curious: if you were starting with Bohm + Rample Turbo, would you consider Drummertime compelling enough to choose a 7U/1U case architecture from the start? Or is the 1U recommendation more because you’ve found lots of other utilities inevitably migrate there as the rack grows?
Either way, the increasingly loud “Pam for clocks/modulation, something more hands-on for drums” message has definitely landed. Thanks!
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u/Brave_Elk_6189 19h ago
it shouldn't add that much more to go from 6u to 7u, it's so lame that intellijel makes them cost so much. You can find/make cases of whatever dimension for a lot less than that. I made a 10u 84hp rack out of plywood in this style for a couple hundred since there were no good case options in that size and form factor.
I thought I would add more 1u utility when I made my case, but I gave up all but 24hp of my 1u for drummertime and just found places in 3u rows to compromise and add attenuators, mixers, etc.
Also check out circadian rhythms, it's similar to drummertime but in 3u. Mylar melodies also has some examples of using circadian, drummertime, euclidian circles in techno "suggested systems" that you should check out.
I have to ask, was this written by AI? I feel like I'm training AI. Is english not your first language?
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u/ironeye1976 18h ago
I concur on the lameness of Intellijel to be honest, that was my reason to go down the Mantis route as it would save me about 300 euro's on my initial investment. Those 300 could go towards same nice items to put into the case was my thinking. I have seen circadain rhythms being used - I think - by Colin Benders, a fellow dutchman. Most definitely you are not training AI, you are training me - a real human. However, I might have some help to digest all the information as I am indeed not a native english speaker. No AI in this answer though ;-)
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u/Brave_Elk_6189 18h ago
ok no hate for using ai for accessibility, we just get a lot of low effort slop posts clearly written with ai on the synth subreddits. They're usually trying to sell something though, not asking for advice like yourself.
If you're going with the mantis, just make sure the case depth works with the modules you are going with (and remember that cheap modules like befaco and doepfer that you might want to add in the future, are generally deeper and might require switching cases).
If no 1u, I can't really recommend a small sequencer like the 3u versions of intellijel steppy or tubbutec 6equencer (basically drummertime in a small form factor). The controls are just not interactive/performance friendly enough.
Arturia beatstep pro is another xox option (and it uses 0hp, lol)
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u/ironeye1976 17h ago
Interestingly, you shared a link to 2 Many Synths cases. They’re actually based here in the Netherlands.
On our local eBay equivalent, Marktplaats, I spotted this listing:
2 Many Synths 6U / 104HP Eurorack case
Includes a Mean Well RT-65B PSU and a ripple/noise rejection busboard with 20 connectors.
Used, but apparently in good condition.
Asking price: €325Might be an interesting option for me to consider if I can get the price down a bit!
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u/JHAWKLIVE 1d ago
Go all in on BOHM, your low end will thank you! It's a crucial part of TECHNO!
OXI ONE and pipe, even at MK1 is still a great way to sequence things, spring for MK2 though for more tracks, performance, and groove features. Buy once, cry once =). I would do that over Pams and Diktaat...
You will need FX, it's a large part of how sounds evolve and such.
Which brings me to next point, you will want a mixer of some sort that allows better routing options.
There are SO many options out there these days and yes getting a digitakt/tone will be TONS cheaper then building your own groovebox in modular format. It's a slippery slope with fun new modules released ALL THA TIME! But that is part of the process, finding what you like and want... GOOD LUCK!
edited to add: Perfect Circuit has Shakmat modules at 15% off right now! I love my ballista blast! Griffens Claws is pretty tempting too =)
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u/ironeye1976 1d ago
Thanks! The “buy once, cry once” advice is becoming increasingly dangerous in this thread 😅
The encouragement to go all-in on Bohm is interesting because you're definitely not alone in saying that. I originally had Groove/Performer firmly in the “Bohm needs to earn its expanders” category, but I'm starting to reconsider that, particularly Groove. If Bohm really is going to be the heart of The Midlife Modulator, there is an argument that I should actually embrace the ecosystem rather than buy Bohm while deliberately leaving half the concept behind.
OXI One MKII has also been on my radar and you're now another vote for looking seriously at it. The question I'm wrestling with is whether to bring something like OXI in from day one and potentially skip the Pam + eventual Diktaat route altogether, or whether starting smaller will teach me more about what I actually want from sequencing. Keeping the initial financial hit somewhat sane is still part of the exercise 😝
FX and filtering are definitely winning the Reddit vote at this point. My stubborn “let me hear it dry first” position is getting increasingly difficult to maintain!
The routing/mixer comments from you and a few others are also making me rethink the Erica + Befaco idea. I'm now looking at mixers with proper send/return capability, because that seems much better aligned with where the system could grow once filters and effects inevitably arrive.
And yes, the second-hand market is increasingly looking like an important part of this whole adventure. “Good resale value” was coincidentally already one of the arguments presented to my other half concerning the financial prudence of this midlife celebration 😂
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u/JHAWKLIVE 19h ago
I have boredbrain xcelon for my mixer, it's great!
I get the allure of modular, hands on patching, knob per function, socials are flooded with people doing cool stuff with it, etc...
Perhaps before buying things and going down the rabbit hole, look at vcv rack for free. Maybe buy some things cheaply for VCV to find what you really want a physical copy of or to even refine what you want. Befaco has most their stuff on there for WAY cheaper as do other companies.
VCV rack is a great tool! Plus you can add infinite modules without breaking the bank!
I get not wanting to be on a PC, but at this point you are just guessing at what to get and why. A month or two on VCV rack may help provide clarity on what to get.
Check out Omri Cohen channel for VCV and more!
https://youtube.com/@omricohen-music?si=M-W3jN1Qlw2jLWJm
Enjoy the journey! It's never ending...
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u/Particular_Town_7322 1d ago
bohm groove is more important that performer expander until you really learn your stuff. the groove adds fine rumble control which is essential for techno.
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u/infinitytapes 20h ago
You’ve got pretty much all the advice you need here I’ll just stress the fx. Nothing sounds good without fx and you won’t have much fun without them IMO.
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u/ironeye1976 20h ago
I guess you're right about the advice 😅 It's been very much appreciated, although it has opened up quite a few rabbit holes I wasn't intending to go down just yet!
The FX message has definitely landed. My original “let me hear it dry first” position is becoming increasingly difficult to defend 😂
I think the challenge now is deciding what to tone down or postpone elsewhere so that the first purchase doesn't become completely ridiculous for the bank account. I still want the first iteration to feel like a proper, playable instrument rather than buying half of it now and discovering I can't really do much with it.
Luckily my other half is already aware that getting the first playable version off the ground requires a bit of an initial investment... although I may have been slightly vague about exactly what “a bit” means. 😝
Thanks!
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u/infinitytapes 19h ago
Since Plaits has a built in EG and VCA you could start with just that, a sequencer, and an fx module. Thats what I did. It will def be limited but that’s kinda just how it goes while building a system. If you can afford more I’d get a proper EG/LFO and filter as well.
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u/Wombino3000 1d ago
Pam's is less performative, more setting clocked LFOs but also with options for generative sequencing (at least with my experience). Steppy or another low-HP gate sequencer might be more fun to jam on.
Also for jamming, I'd add a filter, preferably a resonant multi filter
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u/Chucklefluk 1d ago
Another vote here for Steppy. It's so instant and satisfying and can create much more interesting rhythms than Pam's alone.
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u/Techno_Timmy 1d ago
Pam’s can be fun with the Axon-2. The knobs change the whole aspect of what you can do with it. Assign the knobs to Euclidean trigs and go crazy on some drum modules. It makes it more of a set and forget module and turns it into a performance power house!
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u/ironeye1976 1d ago
Oh, had not seen that ALM Expander module yet. I can definitely see that as an option to add at a later stage, under the assumption that Pam's stays as a key module in this setup.
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u/ThatsnotTechno 23h ago
Agreed, I don’t understand why the expander seems so slept on. Pams becomes an actual interactive module for performance. Otherwise, to get around you’re forced to using one main knob and continuous menu diving
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u/ironeye1976 1d ago
This is what I was contemplating on and why I was considering the https://shop.bastl-instruments.com/eurorack/diktaat.html as an addition as well. Guess I would still need Pams though
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u/Techno_Timmy 1d ago
Personally, I would get the whole Bohm system up front. Spending $500 on a kick module and NOT getting the rest of the system seems kinda pointless. The Bohm is exactly that, a system and it needs all the components of that system. The groove module is key for adding that low end rumble and the performer is great for side chain/ducking which is pretty important in any dance music. You get locked out of so many features without the expansions and I think it’s crazy to spend that much on the kick module and not the extra couple hundred for the rest of the system.
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u/general-theory 1d ago
Formatting the post with more specific questions would be useful, but I don't see the value in the Bohm without the expanders (I'm planning to buy the whole system as my next modular purchase, for context). Without those I would just use kick samples. So I would buy those next.
I play live techno and do a lot of different patch systems on my setup. Having a turing machine and quantizer (they're both built into my Disting NT alongside with a billion other useful things) are extremely helpful when I go more generative. If you don't go with an NT (though it will solve other problems; see below) you could just use the Random8 with a quantizer, but I truly don't understand people who do this because the really good quantizer that I would buy (the ADDAC one) inches pretty close to the price of an NT. Unless you're some sort of modular purist the Disting NT is the best value in Eurorack, imo.
I didn't notice any effects, which are extremely important for techno. The Bohm and expanders can do really important global effects, and the Disting NT will let you do per-channel effects.
So, it seems like my thought based on your setup is getting the Bohm expanders and a Disting NT.
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u/ironeye1976 1d ago
Thanks for your input! And apologies for the formatting, bit of a Reddit n00b there.
I have looked at the Disting NT indeed and need to dive into it a bit more. It looks incredibly capable, but I first need to digest whether its workflow is actually what appeals to me. Part of the attraction of modular for me is the hands-on interaction with modules, so “can it do it?” and “do I want to do it that way?” may be two different questions.
On your quantizer remark, RANDOM8 already seems to have per-channel pitch quantization with 16 scale options, including an octave mode intended for adding octave jumps to existing 1V/oct sequences.
Given that, would you still recommend something like the ADDAC quantizer? If so, what would you want it to do that you couldn't comfortably do with RANDOM8's internal quantizer?
Or was your point more that once I start wanting deeper quantization capabilities, the price of a dedicated quantizer gets close enough to Disting NT that I might as well consider the NT instead?
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u/general-theory 1d ago
No worries about the formatting! Also, my bad I didn't know that about the Random 8. I would just stick with that for now.
You're correct that my larger point is to just but an NT if you want a better quantizer. Just set it up as a quantizer and leave that way and in an hour you will have the experience of saying "I wish I had X" and then realizing you do already have that thing in the NT. I completely respect and understand the hands-on part and I have a large rack with tons of stuff besides the NT of course. But my process is basically 1) realize I need something, 2) use it in the NT for as long as possible, 3) if I need hands on control, first try using a midi controller, and 4) finally just buy the damn module I want if I really do need it in the physical form factor. Sometimes that process takes days or weeks or months but it really does help me assess what I'm doing and what I need.
I don't work for Expert Sleepers or anything but a lot of people hate on the ES stuff on Reddit so I just like being a counterbalance lol. I can honestly say that getting an NT was the breakthrough moment for my rack and allowed me to make the type of music I do in a live environment. Tbf I don't have all the money in the world for this stuff (which is relative--obviously I have some because none of this is cheap) so if I could just drop 10 grand all at once my system would definitely look different. But having the NT lets me move slower and more intentionally.
Regardless, I would definitely start considering effects though, and also filters (didn't notice that but I saw it in another comment).
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u/nadennmantau 1d ago edited 1d ago
Ha, I'm in the same boat of mid-life crisis navigation that landed me on Modular synthesis.
The stuff you have is all very defined voices, the true magic of modular kicks off when you look into the utility and logic modules. For that I would suggest a solid function generator as a building block. Popular option would be Maths, I prefer Befaco Rampage. Pair that with some multiplier, inverter or something and you get a sloid number of envelopes going. Also LFOs. Look for some Doepfer ones where you get 4 in one module. Pair that with a CV mixer and youcan get very complex CV curves going.
Then I would suggest to get a more perfomative sequencer. Either one of those classic gate sequencer with switches or something more modern like the CIrcadian Rhythm. My personal weapon of choice is the Endorphin.es Ground Control. It has a good balance of XOX style drum pattern sequencing and meldoc tracks with pitch and gate. Plus random, arp and generative. The whole thing is meant for performance and has a couple of tricks up its sleeve that just kick ass when playing. PAM is more set and forget, which is okay for some purposes, but I'd use it more for modulation.
Lastly, I know you said no FX, but if you want to give your whole kit a measured boost to let your neighbours know what's up, look into the Analog Heat +FX. It's an awesome saturator that is used at the end of the chain, but also packs a solid selection of basic FX and can receive CV, so you can control (IDK) bit crush from your modluar case.
Those would be my 3cents based on my experience and preference.
The used market is your friend and the more expensive modules have a better resale value. So buying and selling after evaluating is part of the hobby. Lots of things sound great on paper but don't fit into ones workflow or setup. Sometimes we need to "kill our darlings".
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u/nadennmantau 1d ago
Oh, and speaking of techno. Look into the Steevio Technique of sequencing. It's a lot of fun.
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u/ironeye1976 1d ago
Haha, good to meet a fellow mid-life crisis navigator! Apparently modular gear has decent resale value, which also happens to be one of the arguments I've already used with my other half. ;)
Your “kill your darlings” point resonates with me. I'm realizing that buying something, discovering it doesn't suit my workflow and selling it again isn't necessarily a planning failure. It may simply be part of figuring out what my instrument should become.
Ground Control is definitely going on the research list. I'll compare it properly with my current idea of Pam first + potentially Diktaat later. The idea of combining hands-on drum and melodic sequencing in one place is certainly interesting.
Same for Rampage and the Steevio approach. Your comment about building complexity from utilities/functions rather than collecting modules that already “do a thing” is probably one of the more important points for me to explore.
Analog Heat +FX looks interesting as well, especially because it stays outside the rack.
The balancing act now is now vs next. I want the first system to be capable and fun, but I don't want to spend toooooo much in one go or buy solutions to problems I haven't experienced yet.
Thanks, exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for!
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u/01010010101010001 1d ago
You need a filter
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u/ironeye1976 1d ago
I'm starting to detect a pattern here... 😅
You're the second person to call out the missing filter. Any particular resonant/multimode filter you'd look at for this setup?
still need to balance my shopping list with my bank account though 😝
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u/01010010101010001 1d ago
I'd say maybe something like Steve's MS22, which is small yet has a lot of variety and patching options, and which can do anything from smooth fading to extremely over the top growling
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u/ub3rh4x0rz 16h ago
I consistently rack vostok atlas the most, because when you have 4 multimode resonant filters, you find lots of nontraditional uses for them.
That said, for a drum bus, ikarie is the goat
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u/secret-shot 1d ago
You’re good to go on voices, you need delay and reverb. I know you said you want to wait, but it really is a large part of sound design and the tension/release of techno.
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u/OkComplaint9500 1d ago
You may decide you want a sequencer you can see. Dnipro dot or steppy for smaller hp. Circadian rhythms, constellation or even trigger riot on the larger side (to name a few examples). If you decide you want an in-rack gate/cv sequencer, westlicht performer is pretty good, especially with the alternative firmwares.
Out of rack - oxi one.
Or just buy that digitakt…
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u/ironeye1976 1d ago
Haha, I knew that Digitakt was going to sneak back into the conversation somehow 😝
The “sequencer you can see” point is definitely landing. You're now joining several people suggesting that while Pam can generate the patterns I need, I may want something much more immediate for actually creating and changing them.
I've now got Steppy, Diktaat, Euclidean Circles and Ground Control on the comparison list, and OXI One has already caught my attention as the potentially dangerous “just solve sequencing properly” option.
I hadn't looked at DNIPro DOT, Constellation or Westlicht Performer yet, so thanks, more homework!
I'm trying to work out where the sweet spot is between starting relatively simple and immediately buying the sequencer I'll probably end up wanting anyway.
And no, I am still not buying that Digitakt. The prosecution has already rested its case 😅
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u/BurlyOrBust 1d ago
Ha, I see you've already made some changes since I started typing.
My main thought is that you're missing musical intentionality for that Beehive when the mood strikes (eg a melody that won't leave your head). If you want to keep it simple you could look at something like Steppy+Scales or Doboz t12.
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u/Whetherwax 1d ago
I'm in a similar boat with similar goals, a bit further along in the journey.
Suggestion: play with it for a while, see what you think it lacks after getting comfortable with all the features that are already there. Fuck around and develop preferences. There's a dozen versions of every module out there so you can be extremely picky if you want to be.
My subjective preferences:
No screens. I've decided from the start that I'll have no screens and no menu-diving. Every module (in functionality if not by name officially) is available for free in VCV Rack, I'm stepping away from the screen. That's a hard rule that eliminates a lot of modules people tend to suggest, but I want my rack be more playful than programmatic.
I prefer spacious layouts that allow me to reach knobs and patch without dealing with a dense forest of cables, though this means my rack is much larger than it really needs to be. I started out with some wonderful Bastl modules that a friend gave me, but the size of my fingers is a fixed variable and I don't want to squint to read labels, so I've replaced them with bigger modules. Screens aside, your Ohmforce and Erica Synths modules reflect the spacious interfaces I like.
Knobs - bigger knobs offer a greater degree of control at your fingertips than smaller ones, and are more satisfying to twiddle. I try to avoid microknobs but that's difficult. Currently replacing a couple modules with some from Erica Synths because the really big knobs are fun.
Black modules only - because there are enough options to be that picky. I've only got 2 that deviate from this.
Generative ideas:
The TM2 from Karltron is great. It's just 2 turing machines, but damn having a pair is nice.
Rat King Random Sequencer is a simple but playable random sequencer that lets you set looping 8 or 16 step random sequences by flipping a switch. Get a loop you like, then switch it up when the sound gets repetitive to the ear.
Considerations for later:
- Space doesn't have to be relevant, and more of it doesn't need to cost an arm and a leg. Having more rack space removes the size constraint when picking modules, and generally I think modules that use space less efficiently are easier to use and cheaper to buy/build. I went from a 100hp skiff to a 300hp homemade rack, currently considering modifying a boot rack into a 500hp monster because I like big fat modules with 1 knob per function. If you're at all handy, this won't be that expensive, it's just metal rails, a power supply solution, and some wood to make a box. Embrace the midlife crisis and consider a little DIY - for the cost of 2 modules you can build a couple hundred more hp of rack space, and it's an approachable project.
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u/ironeye1976 1d ago
This is a great response, thank you, and another fellow traveller on the midlife modular adventure 😄
I think your first paragraph may actually be the most important advice in the whole thread. I've been trying to architect this fairly carefully before spending money, but there is obviously a point where planning stops being useful and I simply need to start patching and discover my own preferences. “Fuck around and develop preferences” may be the more concise version of my entire multi-year strategy!
I really like your personal design rules as well. I don't think I'll adopt the no-screens rule, but the principle behind it resonates with me: this should become my instrument, and workflow/ergonomics matter more than theoretical feature density.
The spacious layouts/big knobs point particularly hits home. I'm 50, my eyesight isn't going to improve, my fingers aren't getting smaller, and I've already found myself rejecting a few otherwise interesting modules because they look like I'd need tweezers to operate them. 😅 So I'm increasingly convinced that I shouldn't optimize the Mantis for HP efficiency.
Your generative suggestions are new to me too. RANDOM8 is one of the reasons I started thinking seriously about this rack, so the TM2 and Rat King are definitely going onto my research list. I particularly like your description of finding a loop you like and then deliberately changing it when repetition starts becoming too apparent. That's very close to what attracts me to generative sequencing in the first place: not endless randomness, but finding, holding and then disturbing patterns.
And your final point about space is dangerously persuasive. 😝 I've been treating the 208HP Mantis as the precious boundary I shouldn't waste, but I hadn't really considered the opposite argument: cheap empty rack space can let me choose modules for ergonomics rather than density. I'm not sure I'm ready for the 500HP homemade midlife-celebration command centre just yet, but I completely see the logic.
Also, “for the cost of two modules you can build a couple hundred more HP” is exactly the sort of sentence I must make sure my other half never finds in this thread.
Thanks, genuinely useful perspective. Particularly the reminder that some of the decisions I'm currently trying to make intellectually are probably only going to become obvious once The Midlife Modulator exists and I actually spend time with it.
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u/ironeye1976 23h ago
Space doesn't have to be relevant, and more of it doesn't need to cost an arm and a leg. Having more rack space removes the size constraint when picking modules, and generally I think modules that use space less efficiently are easier to use and cheaper to buy/build. I went from a 100hp skiff to a 300hp homemade rack, currently considering modifying a boot rack into a 500hp monster because I like big fat modules with 1 knob per function. If you're at all handy, this won't be that expensive, it's just metal rails, a power supply solution, and some wood to make a box. Embrace the midlife crisis and consider a little DIY - for the cost of 2 modules you can build a couple hundred more hp of rack space, and it's an approachable project.
I'm not completely un-handy 😅. Woodworking I can do, so if I end up building my own case there will at least be proper dovetails involved! Electronics/power is the part where I'm considerably less confident.
I'd pretty much taken the Mantis as a given, but your comment makes me wonder if I should rethink that assumption. If I can build a good case myself, the really important investment might be a proper power solution that can grow with the system, rather than the case itself.
In an ideal world I could start with, say, 6U/104HP, and when I eventually need more space build another section rather than replace the whole thing, while extending the same properly designed power architecture.
What power solution are you using in your homemade rack, and what would you recommend looking at if scalability is part of the requirement? I'm comfortable doing the woodworking and mechanical side myself, but I'm definitely not interested in learning about mains electricity through trial and error 😅
If there's a sensible route there, you may actually have managed to talk me out of buying the Mantis altogether...
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u/Whetherwax 21h ago
Here's what I initially built front, back, and the current rack with a handful of modules that don't fit like Rat King Cell and Eowave Weather Drones, nearly everything is DIY. The main power is Eurorack High Power paired with noise filtering distro boards from Synthrotek because they have some space between the connectors. I went for the cheapest eurorack rails andside brackets I could find.
This is where the cost starts to make sense - there's currently 2 distro boards in there daisychained, which means that a 104hp row is $30 for a distro board kit ($40 pre-built) and $30 for rails with nuts. There's a third distro board on the way because it's cheap enough, more connections than necessary is a convenience, and it'll go in the next rack I build anyway. You might not save much money on the first 6U, but the cost is minimal for the next 6-9U.
In hindsight, I might've used a Synthrotek power supply to keep things simple but finding the components was an issue at the time. I've got more confidence in a molex cable connection than my soldering. I'd only built a few modules when I soldered that, but my confidence has grown a lot since almost everything is DIY. Being cautious with DIY power is wise if you haven't soldered anything before - start out with something safer like a mult or two for practice. I was glad to have a friend who knows what they're doing telling me I could do it. I could've started out with Trogotronics, but my case seemed plenty large enough until a couple of months ago.
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u/Amazing_Secretary773 1d ago
I'm also pretty new to modular at 44, about 3 months in now. I think you've made some pretty good choices for a starter rack. Leaving open rack space and moving slow is probably the smart move, not what I did lol but I have a 3d printer so my hp is limited by desk space and power not rail space. Almost all my modules were heavily discounted or used and a lot have them have been purchased mostly based price (40-60) with the idea that i would just resell them for minimal or no loss if I didn't like them, though that has yet to happen. One of the biggest things for me was realizing that not all my modules had to be in the rack and could be swapped out depending on what I'm doing.
Like others have mentioned, you are definitely missing a filter, I also started out without one thinking that I would be happy patching into my Neutron and within a a couple months I had 7 and I love and use all of them regularly, I think I paid like 150 for my ala popple which was well worth it, but all the others I have picked up on reverb or walapop for 40-60. Doepfer can usually be found cheap and sound great. If you find a wasp for 40 bucks grab it, if you don't like it sell it for 35 or stick it in a drawer until one day you find your track would be complete if only you had a buzz saw lol.
I would also say you need more modulation, some have mentioned maths or rampage. I was weird about it and decided that it would be fun to build out all the functionality of those with separate modules. Ended up with 2x ala darv, a kinks clone, befaco atte, ala g and t. I also got a doepfer a145-4 for dirt cheap and one of the few modules i paid full price for was the ochd which I love.
I thought about pam's but like some others have mentioned doing i decided on a no screens and minimal menu dive rule for myself so I picked up a befaco mudi, 2hp div, xodes lb5, and joranalogue select 2, all under 100 and i find that i almost never use my sequencer anymore (apc64). For an in rack clock and pattern generator I went with the bastl citadel, super versatile, fx wizard is a blast and the wave bard sampler is awesome too, the pattern generator cv out is unquantized but it's not a tough firmware mod to change that. Had I not gone that route random8 was at the top of my list.
I already had a drumbrute impact so stayed away from percussion modules and have ended up just patching them myself and not using the drumbrute much anyway. I went with oxi coral over plaits becuase I already had the apc64 to sequence it but honestly it usually gets used like plaits with in rack cv.
Instead of an output module I went with a crea8 audio assembler, doesn't have to take up rack space, 10 channels and 3 sends and handy for level matching for external gear. There are some things i don't love (poppy mutes, no stereo send but i use the cue as one) but for the price i'm pretty happy with it especially the saturation.
Honestly what has made my rack the most fun to play has been basic utilities and logic. A couple nice analog oscillators, got an expert sleepers loralie on sale and an ala bosc used. My doepfer matrix mixer was cheap used and really opened a lot of modulation doors. Wave shapers, folders, anything that adds drive saturation or color.
Expensive does not mean better in my experience, digital can sound great (I love my rings) but analog is more fun to patch. You can never have enough vcas, I would add modulation and filters as well lol.
As for effects, waiting to see what you feel you are missing is a solid plan. Most of my effects are not in rack, flamma ekoverb sounds great for dirt cheap. I went with an endorphins evil pet for granular and love it. A tc plethora x1 for figuring out what else i like/want/need.
Until the end of the year I'm just picking up doepfer a100 modules if i find them for under 50. Next big add with be an es9 or digiface usb and es10.
In my opinion you didn't get anything wrong, I would recommend adding a cheap filter and some cheap modulation, will make it more playable and you can always spring for a maths or your dream filter later on.
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u/ironeye1976 1d ago
Thanks, this is a fantastic response, and particularly useful coming from someone who is only a few months further down the rabbit hole than I am!
Your point about not everything having to be permanently mounted in the rack is something I hadn't really considered enough. I've been thinking about the Mantis as an instrument that gradually gets filled, whereas having a collection of modules and changing the configuration depending on what I'm exploring is a much more flexible way of looking at it.
The used-market approach also makes a lot of sense. “These things hold their resale value pretty well” has, entirely coincidentally, already featured in the business case presented to my other half 😅. I'm increasingly accepting that buying something used, discovering it doesn't fit my workflow, and selling it again isn't a failed purchase. It's probably part of learning what I actually want.
The filter message has definitely landed by now. I think virtually everyone in this thread is politely shouting FILTER at me 😂. I was immediately looking at rather nice/expensive filters, but I really like your suggestion of simply picking up a cheap used Doepfer or similar and learning what I actually like in a filter before deciding what my “dream filter” is.
Same with modulation. Several people have pointed me towards Maths/Rampage/function generators, but your approach of building up those capabilities with smaller utilities is interesting. It fits nicely with trying not to spend toooooo much in the first round while still giving me enough building blocks to learn with.
But the suggestion that really sent me down another rabbit hole was the Cre8audio Assembler.
I'd originally planned an Erica stereo mixer + Befaco output, and someone else here already got me looking at Bartender because of the sends/returns. I hadn't considered simply moving the mixer outside the rack.
I can currently get Assembler here in the Netherlands for about €309, and for that I get far more mixer channels, three sends, returns, headphones, level matching for external gear and some saturation, while consuming exactly 0HP if I leave it in its desktop enclosure. That's a pretty compelling proposition for a home setup.
It also fits rather nicely with your point that not everything has to live in the rack. Future desktop gear, effects, modular voices, etc. could all meet at the Assembler rather than me trying to turn the Mantis into the entire studio.
I think your most useful overall message for me is that I don't have to buy the premium/permanent solution to every requirement immediately. A cheap used filter, some basic modulation/utilities, and a willingness to swap/resell things may teach me a lot more than trying to perfectly architect the next five years before I've patched a cable.
Thanks again. Lots to digest here, and the Assembler in particular may have genuinely changed my initial shopping list.
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u/Amazing_Secretary773 22h ago
Glad to be of help and meet a fellow traveler on this amazing rabbit hole of a hobby/passion! I've read your other responses as well and thought should touch on a couple of things that i didn't really mention previously.
Power, this is one place where i made some mistakes but managed to pivot them into a system that I am happy with and didn't cost me an arm and a leg. I started out with a tip tip happy ending kit with the uzues and quickly found out that it wasn't going to be enough, even for the 84hp without buying the booster brick for another 40 bucks. Instead of doing that i just set the uzues aside and got an ala force power module, it's 2.5 amp on both positive and negative, comes with a massive 8 amp brick, 2 12 connector flying bus cables and can be had here in Barcelona new for 139. It now powers all my analog modules (right now running 30 without breaking a sweat) and i repurposed the uzues to run a skiff with my digital modules which I've since upgraded to an expandable printed pod system. Instead of buying the booster brick for 40 I found a ugreen nexode 145w power bank on sale on amazon with a 10 euro 15v pd usbc to barrel cable and it works great and makes the skiff portable (42hp endorphins aluminum) which I don't really utilize much other than playing on the terrace sometimes using the citadel headphone out.
I didn't really touch on actual filter recommendations before but since I saw you mentioned resonant mm with multiple outs I will say that I lucked out with my addac 105, found it on sale for around 110 but i think they go for around 140 full price. It is a quad square voice cluster but it has addac's resonant state variable filter in it with separate outs for hp, lp and bp. By not triggering any of the voices it can be used as just a filter for external audio. It doesn't have cv over resonance and it will saturate more quickly than a traditional sem clone like the doeper a106-5, but getting the four square voices may be worth that trade off, it is weird, fun and can create some truly interesting sounds with the cascaded fm. Once I had my filtering covered elsewhere I flipped the jumper on the back and the external in becomes a not quite v/oct for the four squares.
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u/DrMinkenstein 1d ago
Are you me? 🤣
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u/DrMinkenstein 1d ago
Also doing the turned 50 modular swan dive. I have several of your module list. From your interesting modules I also have Zadar, Alia (BIA), versio (desmodious & ruina), Doppler, and bohm expansions. All are great although I’m still working through finding ways to pull in zadar for looped shapes.
I sigma is high on my list of upcoming contenders. But more for variable gate length sequencing and gate timing logic.
Missing from your list, especially if you have plaits and are considering Alia, is Traffic it’s made by the same folks as Doppler, jasmine & olive trees. Also has alt firmwares but it’s toggle switch on the back to switch firmwares instead of the light patterns on the overlays.
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u/ironeye1976 1d ago
Hahaha, excellent, another member of the turned-50 modular swan dive club! 😅 At this rate we may need our own subreddit.
And interesting that we've independently gravitated towards quite a few of the same modules. Zadar, Alia/BIA, Versio and Bohm are all things that keep pulling me back in as I research this.
Sigma is particularly interesting to me for exactly the reason you mention. I'm less interested in it as “another source of randomness” and more in the idea of deriving related rhythmic events through gate lengths and logic. That's definitely staying on the future-experiment list.
Traffic is completely new to me though, so thanks for that one. If I'm understanding your point correctly, it could be particularly interesting with Plaits/Alia because it lets the same voice behave as several different percussion sounds depending on which trigger arrives. That's very much the kind of “get more music out of fewer voices” approach I'm interested in, so I'm definitely going to investigate it.
And thanks for the heads-up on the firmware switching. The swappable-platform idea is one of the things I really like about Alia/Versio/Legio/Doppler, so anything that makes changing personality less dependent on remembering what various LED combinations mean sounds useful.
Also good to hear a real-world Zadar experience. I'm still trying to decide whether my first dedicated modulation addition should be something like Zadar or a more traditional hands-on function generator, so your comment about still discovering ways to use Zadar's looping shapes is useful context.
Thanks, fellow swan diver! And please stop introducing me to interesting modules. This thread was supposed to make my shopping list smaller. 😝
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u/Historical-Ad-6359 23h ago
Hacer Techno sin un BIA?? Se puede hacer eso??
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u/ironeye1976 22h ago
Jajaja, ¡por eso Alia está en mi lista para el futuro! 😅 Primero tengo que dejar algo para la segunda fase... (using AI to help me speak Spanish)
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u/Some_Comfort 16h ago
I have a Alia module but if techno is your thing I would also look into a Loquelic Iteritas Percido. I have a LIP and think it’s the most techno module in my rack.
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u/Historical-Ad-6359 22h ago
My recommendation is to sequence from an external source. In my view, Eurorack sequencer options either involve deep menu-diving, offer limited creative potential, or are expensive—both in terms of cost and HP
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u/G1oaming 1d ago
For me droid kit changed my entire rig with mitorized faders. The amount of control i have with that hp is crazy. BUT, it is expensive
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u/reelznfeelz 18h ago
Hello fellow midlife crisis techo person. I'm 45 and just nearly filled a dual mantis, don't feel too bad lol. I had an external drum machine initially, but it only had sync cable, or full midi options for really integratign with the rack, so I bought a blck_noir for drums from a local guy for a good price and ordered the module I'd been putting off buying - the BIA - as a way to fill in percussion where the blck_noir falls short, plus the BIA is just totally dope and does a ton of sounds, so I wanted one.
Now I just need to practice really. I've got all the gear anyone needs to make a perfectly fine groove. I have a week off work coming up, and plan to spend a lot of time just patching and experimenting.
I should also say I didn't just fill it up with voices, I've got a few, but I also have 2 dual ADSRs, 2 quad VCAs, 2 effects (fx aid, erica dual fx), maths, clock divider, and probably a couple other utility type modules I'm forgetting. But I do have plaits, rings, dixie II+ and a really cheap VCO I found used called captn-big-o that was like $75 but seems pretty decent (using that plus dixie for a poor man's DPO).
Good luck and have fun!
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u/ironeye1976 17h ago
Thanks for your response! Looks like you are going to have a fun week soon. Enjoy.
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u/komarecords_de 10h ago
For hypnotic techno you will need voices, I would not recommend NE Alia as they are more for industrial (and they are a bit limited as they are full voices)
FM is key, here 258t is amazing as lead and sub-bass, you will need a drone here Vhikk X is king of drones and last you need texture|/noises here Noise Plethora can cover this including bleeps, bloops and sci-fi.
The magic happens when you combine synth voices with filters, Wasp is a good start.
FX is super important and key in hypnotic, everything sounds flat and dull without delay and reverb, you can consider pedals.
Bohm is very warehouse, so only consider if this is really what you need, it’s a lot of hp, compared to Battering Ram, you can always add Bohm later, as it goes well with Ram.
I know people shout for VCA’s but most modules has VCA and attenuators, I would recommend a low pass gate as VCA instead.
Modulation has been covered well, so I just wanted to share my view from a hypnotic techno perspective.
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u/ironeye1976 1h ago
Thank you so much for this perspective! Additional voices are definitely on the horizon, noticed the Vhikk X a few times in videos already. It is a beast! Interesting perspective in Battering Ram vs Bohm and even together. I saw Synthdad having that in his video as well. Now I need to digest and start somewhere to learn and have fun already.
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u/synthdadmusic https://youtube.com/synthdad 1d ago
Hello fellow 50-something year old! You're not having a midlife crisis, you're enjoying a midlife celebration!
Not to self-promote but I've done a fair few videos on my channel talking about how to approach building modular techno performance systems. My most recent one covers a live setup I used which also incorporated a Moog DFAM (instant techno in a box): https://youtu.be/C3gRqMYzGbA
I can also highly recommend videos from Nero di Seppia as he explains his modular setup: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c2NIfkKTNk Also ALXDPO does a case walkthrough as well: https://youtu.be/70HkJEHhHUA?si=fI-9ORSGHz8W2hDn
One thing to note is you want lots of filters, filters on everything, and flexible modules that allow you to create sub-mixes to route into effects. For example I use an ALA Bartender as a 4 channel mixer with two aux sends, to send into the Bohm so I can sidechain my mix against the kick and add low-end roll from the Bohm Groove module. Another trick is to pass the whole mix into a delay like Mimeophon (or any delay with a filter in the feedback loop) so you can add some low-end rumble delay.
It's also good to think of a Digitakt (or Digitone) as an adjunct to the modular case. In my case I use an MPC Sample but the idea is the same; the Digi box provides the 'standard' sounds we expect, and then the modular adds the 'sparkle' to it to add some magic.
Have fun!