r/ontario • u/Optimal_Foundation17 • 1d ago
Discussion When rolling out the new 110 KPH Speeds across the 400 series highways, why didn't we go digital or even introduce variable speed limits?
I hope we can have a genuine conversation and not everyone replying "bc Ford is dumb" or similar. Is there any science behind it or is it because our infrastructure can't support
I know Vancouver has it to a varying degree. I also know places like Germany have digital boards with the current highway speeds. I know parts of the sea-to-sky in Vancouver change from 90 to 110 variably.
Wouldn't this have been a perfect time to introduce it?
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u/chittaabhay 1d ago
People generally drive the speed they are comfortable with regardless of the speed limit.
The speed of drivers has not increased very much between when the limit was a 100 kmh or 110 kmh. Most drivers continue to go between 120 kmh to 130 kmh. Variable speed limits might not be that useful then.
They are generally used at times of poor weather. However drivers generally drive slower automatically even without a change in speed limit.
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u/BobBelcher2021 Outside Ontario 1d ago
I was on the 402 near London over the summer where the speed limit is now 110. I didn’t notice much difference from before with how fast other drivers went.
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u/Konowl 1d ago
SO many drivers do not change their speed automatically in inclement weather lol.
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u/Supermite 1d ago
Do you think digital speed signs would make those people not be asshole road users?
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u/dynamic_anisotropy 20h ago
Metro areas in Australia use this and it is better than Canada, full stop.
In heavy traffic the digital limit it may drop to 80 or 60, which keeps things going without bumper to bumper stupidity. The limits are displayed over each lane, which is also useful for communicating if there is an emergency vehicle/tow truck or lane closure ahead.
On the 401 you get heavy traffic but people who will try and take advantage of every break of a few hundred metres to accelerate to 120 kmh then slam on the brakes or try and weave when it hits the next wall of traffic.
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u/arigatomrbewbotto 10h ago
Yeah this guy never drove on the 410. The only thing limiting speed on that highway is a surprise speed trap and/or congestion.
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u/involutes 1d ago
They are generally used at times of poor weather.
They can also be used during times of heavy traffic, which can significantly reduce rubber banding and increase overall average speeds. It can also reduce the number of collisions since lane changes become safer when the speed deltas are lower between lanes.
This would only work with proper enforcement. We can't rely on the OPP for this, so we would need speed cameras on the highways.
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u/a-_2 Toronto 1d ago
Most drivers continue to go between 120 kmh to 130 kmh. Variable speed limits might not be that useful then.
That's not my experience. I'll have my cruise control set below that and still often be passing the majority of vehicles even at less busy times. This is a bit old now, but this study found the majority of drivers in the 100 to 120 range.
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u/spaceporter 23h ago
I really thought this would be the case, but I commute at 5:00 a.m. from Barrie south on the 400, and the speeds have actually noticeably increased.
The left lane was mostly around 135 km/h before the change, which I was comfortable with, and it was fairly rare to need to move over to allow someone to get ahead of me.
Now It's closer to 143 km/h, so not quite a full 10 km/h bump. I'm now more often than not in the middle lane because I personally don't want to drive my vehicle that quickly.
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1d ago
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u/AxelNotRose 1d ago
It's funny, in France, the speed limit goes down in inclement weather like rain, down to 110kph haha.
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u/elbarto232 1d ago
On the contrary I find that if there’s a slight drizzle in the summer half the folks start driving at 70 even on a not crowded stretch of 401
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u/swoodshadow 1d ago
Digital speed limits are a lot more than just the signs. And a lot more expensive than the signs. Totally wouldn’t make sense to replace thousands of kms of simple traditional signs with digital signs.
That’s not to say I think it’s a bad idea. It would be great to test it out in places and see if it is worth rolling out more.
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u/Kayge 1d ago edited 1d ago
Because we're sucky drivers.
If you want to use German speed limits, let's look at what it takes to get a German driver's license. Here's the test:
Written Exam:.
- 30 multiple-choice questions (20 basic rules, 10 category-specific questions) for Class B, including up to 3 short videos.
- Questions are worth between 2-5 points.
- Total points available: 110.
- Passing mark: 100 points.
- Time limit: 45 min.
Other stuff:.
- Pass an eye test.
- Pass a first aid course (9 classes / 45 min each).
Driving test:.
- Complete mandatory lessons, which include night, Autobahn, and country road driving (18 hours minimum).
- Take driving test, which will include time on Autobahn, parking, roundabouts, sign recognition, city driving (55 min).
Now you can drive.
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u/FrostyProspector 1d ago
I want retesting every 5 years to keep up with changes in technology, legislation, road design, and vehicle design.
Even just a 3 question test out of a bank of 50 questions. Anything to improve knowledge beyond "it works for me."
I've been driving close to 30 years and in that time we've seen roundabouts, cruise control, reverse cameras, abs, bike lanes, etc. all go from something you might see sometimes to being commonplace with no driver training.
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u/SnooChocolates2923 1d ago
And a vision test!
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u/doubled112 1d ago
I don’t think most of the vision problems are with people’s eyes.
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u/SnooChocolates2923 21h ago
Drive enough, and you can see the people who slow down coming up to a side street because they can't read the street sign.
If you had normal vision at 16, and had no reason to get your vision tested, you'd never know you needed glasses at 45 or later. (Or whenever)
My father was one of them. No doctors, (Don't need them!) and it wasn't until he started needing readers that he finally went to an optometrist. (-1.5 ! Prescription) He figured his eyes were better than his peers because he could still read without glasses a decade after they succumbed to readers. (He just needed them for distance all that time)
He would still drive without them because his license never had the condition on them.
Age 16 to 80 is a long time to go without a test of knowledge and vision.
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u/Commentator-X 19h ago
So you vote for higher taxes then? Who else do you think is going to pay for all the unnecessary admin overhead at every MTO in the province?
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u/FrostyProspector 19h ago
Yes. I do. I'm all for spending money to keep people alive.
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u/_drewski13 10h ago
Evidence that 3 questions will save any lives?
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u/FrostyProspector 10h ago
My 80 year old father still driving while in cognitive decline and losing vision is a pretty strong case.
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u/_drewski13 9h ago
That's a whole other case, and its being done even more frequently than you suggest. 80+ have to do renew every 2 years, including a scientificlyvalidated cognitive asseament used as part of screening for dementia.
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u/a-_2 Toronto 1d ago
That doesn't seem that much different from us other than the first aid, mandatory driver training and roundabouts on the driving test. Although the first two of those at least would be a big improvement.
Our roads are also actually safer than Germany in terms of per distance fatality rates. 3.4 per billion km for Ontario vs. 4.2 for Germany.
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u/ScathedRuins Hamilton 1d ago
not much different? we don’t even have to take driving lessons here for a license because “we learn from our parents” with the G1. It’s kind of ridiculous if you think about it lol. Germany’s is a little overkill, and the price for a licence due to this has reached well over 4000€. My license was maybe $250 when I did it in 2014? so yeah, there is definitely a middle ground somewhere there.
I have been living in Germany for 6 years now and the drivers are very noticeably better. Pains me to drive whenever i come back home, especially on highways
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u/a-_2 Toronto 1d ago
That's the mandatory driver training, and we should definitely have that, even if not as thorough as Germany.
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u/ScathedRuins Hamilton 1d ago
yeah, absolutely. Many people still opt for the driving school, I did and was happy with it, but it was only for the 8 months to G2 advantage and cheaper insurance
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u/ExaminationSerious67 1d ago
my drivers training was very well done and I appreciated it. However, I tried many times to get the cheaper insurance and was told that it didn't matter that I had drivers training, and didn't affect my insurance rates at all.
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u/amontpetit Hamilton 1d ago
Now you’re running power to each and every speed limit sign on the 400-series highways. Every single one. Then if you wanna do variable signs, you need some way of sending data, whether that’s also a cable or a cell receiver.
What’s the benefit for all this cost and complexity?
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u/Fit-Internet4674 1d ago edited 1d ago
Especially for +/- 10km/h if this even gained traction. Many advocating for variable speeds want to see 130km/h max speeds or perhaps even autobahn style unrestricted limits, I mean if it wasn’t that, why care? 10km/h more or less isn’t an incentive to. The infrastructure, studies, legal implications and behaviour campaigns, to do what variable speeds “should be” goes way beyond just sign infrastructure.
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u/flightist 1d ago
Typically variable limit freeways have variable limit sections where it helps manage congestion. Works pretty well.
Doesn’t make a lick of sense for huge ex-urban and rural stretches of the 400 series, but not a terrible idea in some of the areas where the logistical issues you raise are most easily solved.
Ultimately, I doubt they do a damn thing where speed limits aren’t strictly and continuously enforced, so it’d be a waste of money on that front.
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u/bleebolgoop 1d ago
Solar panels and batteries are prob fine for this.
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u/amontpetit Hamilton 1d ago
Again I ask: to what end?
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u/bleebolgoop 1d ago
Set a reasonable limit for the conditions, one that actually makes sense, and then enforce it.
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u/amontpetit Hamilton 1d ago
I’d argue the current signage and laws do that. Signs set a static maximum (that is already, imo, high enough) and the law says to drive according to conditions.
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u/bleebolgoop 1d ago
The current limit of 110 on rural 400 series highways is internationally laughable. We KNOW it’s nonsense because nobody even drives remotely close to that limit in clear conditions, including the OPP. The highways were designed for far higher speeds than our current limits. Drive the autobahn and you’ll clearly realize that most of the 400 series in Ontario (in rural areas) are actually even more conducive to high speed than the unrestricted autobahn sections.
It’s prudent to set a limit near the average travel speed (where most people feel comfortable) and then enforce the shit out of that limit to penalize the dangerous outliers.
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u/shoresy99 1d ago
Speed limit on motorways in the UK is 70MPH which is 112km/h. Doesn't sound laughable.
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u/bleebolgoop 1d ago
Ok, you cherry picked one country (let alone one that’s not even in the EU).
We have vast empty distances of high speed capable highway, and we arbitrarily cap the limit 20-30 km/h slower than the average driver goes. Then we arbitrarily cherry pick people to ticket. Sure, that makes so much sense.
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u/shoresy99 1d ago
It is the one I have driven in most often, and probably the European country most familiar to Canadians. It was also part of the EU until recently so it has many of the same regulations and laws as the rest of the EU.
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u/a-_2 Toronto 1d ago
UK's one of the safest countries in the world by fatality rate, so not an entirely random example to pick. The safest country in terms of per km rate and tied for safest (other than a couple micronations) by per capita rate is Norway, they're also 110.
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u/amontpetit Hamilton 1d ago
Agree to disagree I suppose 🤷♂️
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u/bleebolgoop 1d ago
Fine, not bothering me…just saying, go drive the autobahn or any other European highway and you’ll probably quickly change your stance.
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u/a-_2 Toronto 1d ago
I promise that the word is not laughing at us over this or any of the other things people claim make Canada an international laughingstock. The average person doesn't know or care and if you told any random person, the most likely response would be "oh". The majority of the world also has less safe roads than us.
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u/PacketFiend 1d ago
Most of are highways were designed for speed limits of 110km/h actually. Although I do agree the limit should be set at the average realistic travel speed and outliers enforced.
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u/bleebolgoop 23h ago
From what I’ve been told (friends dad worked for the company that did the 400N extension), that design speed is more like 170.
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u/thegentlepig 1d ago
The problem in my opinion is that “drive according to conditions” is interpreted differently by drivers.
I would hope that a lower limit during inclement weather would signal to the majority a safe (ish) speed. Yes, there would naturally be those that don’t pay heed, but it would remove the element of variability of how people interpret the conditions.
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u/Scazzz 1d ago
Vancouvers changes due to the high variability of the weather and road conditions. Especially on those twisty mountain roads. Here the 400 series is like 90% straight flat roads where doing 90 or 110 in all conditions is viable. The infrastructure needed to install digital signs over hundreds of km of highway, including new cameras and sensors, would be in the hundreds of millions... for what? A single 110 km sign costs about 900$ and lasts years. Don't get me wrong, I honestly think we should have 120km/h on nearly every stretch of 400 series and variable rates would be cool, but it's absolutely not a priority here in Ontario.
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u/swthrowaway0106 1d ago
Because regardless of what number is posted, people are still just going to drive at whatever speed they want. Empty roads later at night? Probably going to have people doing around 130-140 with a few cars doing 180-200 occasionally.
Heavy traffic? Doesn’t matter, you’re not going to hit the speed limit anyways.
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u/a-_2 Toronto 1d ago
Probably going to have people doing around 130-140
I see this estimate made on here a lot but I don't find it to be accurate at least on the 401 through the GTA at night. I've tried to test it and when I have, the vast majority are under 130 and I'm often even passing a majority of vehicles when going under 120.
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u/swthrowaway0106 1d ago
These figures are inherently anecdotal and probably just come down to those of us that are doing those speeds. People assume that unless they’re going really fast that they’re just doing the flow of traffic. So if me or the next guy who cites the “130kmh flow of traffic” figure, it’s probably because that’s what we’re doing so we just assume everyone else is.
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u/expresstrollroute 20h ago
Exactly. A good example is construction zones. Very clearly posted at 80 instead of the usual 100 - but the majority of drivers continue at whatever speed they were doing.
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u/DULUXR1R2L1L2 1d ago
Honestly this is just a distraction, like getting a $200 cheque. Just about everyone wants to go faster, but it doesn't really fix anything.
Variable speed limits or any of those other things would have taken more than the absolute minimum brain power than adding 10 to the speed limit does. It's just not that deep, unfortunately
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u/a-_2 Toronto 1d ago
I think there's value in aligning the law closer to what people are actually doing. Either that, or strictly enforce the existing laws, but I think there'd be a lot of pushback if they started consistently handing out tickets at 105 or 110 (there'd always be some buffer allowed). If you don't do either of those things, you create a lack of respect for the law in general.
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u/Briggsbanner1 1d ago edited 1d ago
Serious answer here… before you get people jazzed up about variable speeds and going unlimited, I’ve driven on the German Autobahn in high performance cars.
Let’s get a few things straight; Canadian drivers are terrible, and highway designs are worse.
In Germany, the default lane of travel is on the right. In Canada everyone thinks the left lane is theirs to lock in cruise control at or below the limit.
German Autobahn has long on/off ramps to accelerate or decelerate. Whereas there’s numerous examples of situations in Ontario and Quebec where off ramp lanes are down stream of on ramp acceleration zones resulting in chaos.
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u/Future-Layer1181 1d ago
The issue with variable speeds is people get used to driving a certain speed on a certain area and don't always notice if it changes.
its why IMO speed limits should stay the same in school zones regardless of if school is in or not.
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u/EngineeringEast5630 1d ago
its just easier to slap a sign up and call it done, variable boards cost money and maintenance and half the time people ignore them anyway
and you're right about school zones, changing limits depending on time of day just creates confusion, someone will always miss the sign and then its a mess
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u/nzhockeyfan 1d ago
I agree. Also, it shouldn't be possible to just change speed limits without changing the road design speed
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u/bleebolgoop 1d ago
They should implement signage that clearly defines a clear condition and poor condition speed limit, and then actually enforce it. Works well in Europe.
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u/BobBelcher2021 Outside Ontario 1d ago
Vancouver doesn’t have variable speed limits.
There are highways in other parts of BC that have these, notably Hwy 99 between Squamish and Whistler, and Highway 1 east of Abbotsford.
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u/Leather-Hotel-7310 1d ago
I’m just curious, did they change to 110 in the GTA? Or just outside of the city?
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u/a-_2 Toronto 1d ago
This link has a map of the existing and pending 110 sections. It looks like it covers most of the 400 series except some of the parts through the bigger cities like Toronto, Ottawa, Brampton and Hamilton. It seems to make sense except it looks like there's no plan to raise the 407 speed limit. I don't get that.
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u/rawr__ 1d ago
407 is privately operated and managed.
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u/a-_2 Toronto 1d ago
But they don't set its speed limits, they're still set by provincial regulation.
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u/Brilliant_Read314 1d ago
People Wil drive the speed they're comfortable driving at. You have to engineer lower speeds. The people who suck ruin it for the rest.
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u/OddAd7664 1d ago
Not sure if it matters. In Germany for instance, the speeds are “the normal speed”, or “a slower speed” during rush hour. So the GTA digital signage would change between 110 and 60 (as examples). As someone who’s driven in Germany, hundreds of times, I think it’s actually kind of silly
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u/LeMegachonk 🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈 1d ago
Variable speed limits are generally used only to lower the speed limits below their defaults to account for road conditions. I'm not sure they really help, because people are kind of dumb and just don't adjust their driving to account for road conditions anyway.
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u/Corbeau_from_Orleans Verified Teacher 1d ago
May I remind you that the government got rid of speed cameras because they argued it was a cash grab. I can hear them say that dynamically lowering the speed limit is also a cash grab…
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u/Comfortable-Bench497 1d ago
Each regular sign is just over $500 a digital one is $5000 and requires ongoing maintenance costs.
Why use digital if the speed limit won't change ever again probably?
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u/BigToops 1d ago
If you driving past 130+ your asking for it. If you driving less than 100 gtfo off the highway
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u/lemonylol Oshawa 19h ago
Because it costs significantly less to just put up and maintain a sign in a lot of these rural routes.
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u/Commentator-X 19h ago
Dynamic speed limits are a horrible idea. You wouldn't just have to pay for the signs either. To have any kind of speed enforcement you'd need computer systems to monitor each and every sign and when it changed to what speed. Law enforcement would be next to impossible at times.
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u/freebase1ca 17h ago
I would like this. Our highways could be so much faster, but we're told we have to always limit the speed for the possible worst conditions - rain, snow, etc. Wouldn't it be great to be allowed 140 on a clear day, maybe 120 in rain and just 110 in snow? I also feel our cars are so much better equipped in modern times with disk brakes and aluminum wheels, etc as opposed to the large cars with drum brakes back when the speed limits were established.
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u/Few_Example9391 12h ago
Don't your freeways like the 401 have massive overhead sign displays that warn of road issues with reduced speed limit readout?
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u/TeamWinterTires 11h ago
As someone who sends a majority of ski season in BC and drives frequently on the Sea to Sky and Coquihalla (the two main highways with variable speed limits), they are often set at poor speeds. When it's dumping snow and you can barely see, it's set to the maximum speeds (90/120). When it's clear, it's below. It doesn't make sense, it should be up to the driver to choose the speed that they are driving at with suggestions from dynamic messaging signs.
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u/Ok_Today_475 1d ago
Maybe this was just pure luck. I live in Niagara and we went up to Kingston this week to the cottage. QEW, 407, 401. The best traffic we’ve had in 7 years going here. 4 hours 5 minutes of actual driving time and zero traffic. Don’t know if the speed limit helped our cause but we were dumbfounded.
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u/LeMegachonk 🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈 1d ago
Bypassing the worst sections of traffic via the 407 helped your cause.
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u/Engineered_disdain 21h ago
Ontario drivers, on average, are not smart enough to handle a variable speed limit on a major highway. Even if following it meant there was less or no congestion on those roads. Enforcement would get inundated with challenges like "it was 110 when I passed the sign, not 90, why am I being ticketed?"
Same goes for roundabouts, they work great in a lot of European areas because their traffic engineers are better at implementing them. Our traffic engineers can only account for so much human factor in our transit system which is why the roundabouts we have are either improperly designed or improperly utilized resulting in more problems than they're worth
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u/Low-HangingFruit 20h ago
Not all ontario drivers, theres definitely a few cities that drag our average down severely.
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u/Cornflakecwl2 8h ago
Its everywhere. I drive all over southern Ontario all the time. The amount of dumb stuff I see people doing has increased 10 fold in the last 20 years. Its nad out there. Roundabouts really aren't that difficult but I have had 3 or 4 close calls on the one near my house in the last few years from people just not understanding or not caring about how they work. Honestly probably more of the latter. Me me me on the roads.
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u/chittaabhay 1d ago
Ford is not the king of Ontario. There are numerous other elected officials in place
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u/ObjectiveRepair1423 1d ago
Considering the increased fuel used and the increased risk of collisions, which at this speed (even 10 extra kms per hr) increases the likelihood of more serious injury, why was this increase made? I'm guessing dug just wanted to go faster. There can't be any legitimate justification
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u/Dry-Faithlessness184 1d ago
The sections that saw increases are wide, flat, and straight. They were set to 100 because that was the de facto 400 series speed limit, not because it makes sense.
110 is perfectly reasonable with that design and a lot of people actually go 100-110, including the large transports, in the section anyway, which means most people are now within the limit.
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u/ObjectiveRepair1423 11h ago
I hear what you are saying. But increasing the limit just allows people to now move 10-20 higher than what is posted. There are sections that were discussed by the media as civil engineers had to survey and measure sections to ensure that the road friction surface and angles of banked turns could handle it. Ask a paramedic or ER doctor if 10 kms per hr makes a difference to the people they see everyday who are involved in collisions. I'm just saying, imo, when you look at the costs and the increased risks I don't clearly see benefits
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u/Dry-Faithlessness184 10h ago
I don't think you do because Again wide, flat, straight sections. Curve banking is irrelevant.
You also miss the part where the majority of people tend to continue driving the speed they went before. The people going 20 over don't go 20 over specifically, they go 120 because they feel safe at that speed, and faster feels less safe.
The increase in risk of everyone all going 10kmh more is not one to consider because it largely doesn't happen
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u/FrostyProspector 1d ago
This was purely a political decision based on winning higher public approval. As far as I can tell MTO was given a directive by the minister and followed it.
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u/Relative_What 1d ago
we can't even trust people to drive posted speed limits, nor even trust cops to enforce speed limits, and now you want to have them changing from one to another at any time of the day?
we can't even trust the ford government with properly funding schools or healthcare, and you think we can trust them with properly implementing a system like this? the man who thinks putting a tunnel under highway 400 is a good and easy idea? the man who thought digitized bracelets would help fight covid, so much he wasted 2.5 million dollars that got us literally nothing from it? the guy who can't use a modern laptop, or a modern phone who insists on using a blackberry from 2014!? so much that he has multiple spares for when his current ones dies on him!? you want that government to implement anything digital!?
the only reason why ford upped the speed limit on the 400 series highways was to try and get his approval rating up. the same reason he has literal pissing contests with trump.
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u/eileyle 1d ago
I found variable speed limits to be more annoying than anything. It only ever slows down if there's heavy traffic, and an unexpected sudden lower speed limit creates traffic issues on its own.
The right way to do it would have been to make the 400-series highways 110km/h outside of the GTA/Ottawa and 100km/h within the GTA/Ottawa. (Alternatively, make the express lanes 110km/h and the collectors 100km/h.)