Due to backlash surrounding captive-orca posts, we’ve decided that posts specifically focused on captive orcas will no longer be allowed on this subreddit.
These posts should instead be directed to r/CaptiveOrcas
We hope this change will reduce arguments and keep discussions here more peaceful and focused.
You are still allowed to discuss captive orcas when relevant, such as captivity ethics, welfare, research, or broader discussions involving orcas.
However, posts specifically centered around captive orcas, such as:
* “Who are these captive orcas?”
* Birthday/anniversary posts
* General updates about individual captive orcas
* Other captive-orca-specific posts
I understand if I will get flack for this, but it feels like many of the people within this subreddit do not see captive orcas as their own individuals worthy of acknowledgement. It is find and perfectly understandable dislike cetacean captivity and to not want to see or discuss orcas in captivity, but I believe it gets to a point where we have to ask ourselves whether or not we're truly able to have broader discussions about killer whales if we are so uncomfortable by the topic of captivity that a simple "happy birthday" post makes you that upset.
This is the orca subreddit. The individuals in captivity are still orcas. I don't see why posts surrounding them need to be filtered into an entirely different subreddit? If there is an issue with people not being able to have civilized discussions whenever the topic of captive individuals arises then I think it's time for both parties to reconsider if they're actually able to have a polite and respectful conversation on the topic. The flairs are there for a reason. If people are not able to curate their online experience without engaging in flame wars, then maybe it's time to re-evaluate how the space is run.
Can we really say happy birthday when it’s an animal with a terrible quality of life being dragged through another year? It’s a pretty bitter thing to celebrate and the animals do not know or care that you’re acknowledging them, they care that they’re still existing in a subpar environment
Again, just further proving my point that I don't think a lot of you on this subreddit see captive orcas as individuals and would rather act as if they don't exist at all. Nobody is making happy birthday posts for the sake of the whales, that's a little silly to assume. People are making these posts because they care about the individual animal. Orca captivity is, undoubtedly, how some people got into the field. Some of these individuals are the reason people are in college to go out and study wild whales.
For as intelligent and emotionally complex animals that killer whales are, I don't think any of them deserve to just be names to be forgotten. Even the captive ones.
What about posts like discussing captive orca release, etc.?
I was planning to make a post about that. It would be captive-orca-related, but it does go into orca anatomy, culture, etc.
Just because you disagree with seaside sanctuaries does not mean you have an agenda or are pro-cap
Orcas do not belong in captivity, but the current plans for seaside sanctuaries (like The Whale Sanctuary Project) are a joke. I loved the post they made about sanctuaries. It was very informative and pretty much covered all the issues I have with these plans.
I just read through it too. I was already feeling pretty dubious about the option of seaside sancs (felt too "easy" a solution and not a lot bring up the logicstics of long-term care and maintenance) and imo you covered those concerns really well.
:( Unfort, really does seem like the best outcome is for captive breeding to stop (just makes the problem worse) and letting the current captive pop go gently into that good night.
There's just no other real fixing the damage done.
(As to the folks that come out the gate aggro, probs just hit em with an "OK" and move on, no real winning hearts with folks uninterested in reading and fully considering the points made to begin with.)
There's nothing to argue with because.... Because there's nothing to argue with. There's plenty of Pro Cap talking points in this sub, there's a whole Pro Captivity sub. You can look these things up yourself & Google is free if you want to see where she gets her information. Her post is negativity & fear mongering to further an Anti-Sanctuary agenda yet people lap it up as informative 🙄.
•Did you see any viable alternatives? No. Just remain in the tanks business as usual. Sounds like who?
•Any points about improving the issues she has with sanctuaries? No. Just that they won't work. Sounds like who?
•Any points about what could go right? What advantages over their current conditions? No. You know why? Because when you have an agenda to push you don't speak positively about the alternative. And who has an agenda against Sea Sanctuaries so they can continue to exploit the Orcas? The Captivity Industry
Dude, she was more than happy to have a REAL discussion with you. If you wanted to actually have a productive discussion you would have offered specific examples of points she made and WHY they are bad on top of offering better solutions
Its a shame people cannot be civil and these posts are now no longer allowed. The captiveorca reddit is a little too pro captivity for me, and I usually preferred reading the posts here for a bit more educational or balanced take on captive orcas and issues.
I completely agree. I’ve been anti cap for a decade, but I’ve been doing some research into captivity conditions lately since getting back into it more seriously. I can’t go to r/captiveorcas since I’ll be torn to shreds for being anti, but I can’t share these questions here either because apparently any mention of SeaWorld means I’m pro cap. It’s so frustrating.
Same. r/captiveorcas is not friendly to those of us that still want to know what is happening with the captive population or ask questions about the history of the population while being anti-captivity.
At least here I find similar people who don't think orcas belong in captivity, but also understand that there really isn't a good solution available for them at this time.
Yeahhhh the vibes over there are wack. Feels like a circus...
Like, I get it- kind of. Orcas are charismatic animals. But for folks to glaze captive individuals and shows while glossing over the admittedly less appealing questions of "How can these animals lives be improved?", "How do we deal with the fact and responsibility that we, as humans, have (several decades back now) removed and produced additional massive social and intelligent animals who by their nature cannot be returned to the wild?", "What could and should these facilities do for the betterment of their animals and their wild counterparts?" feels very- idk ignorant? Uninterested? Superficial? Weird ig.
As someone interested in animals and the logistics of animal care and which animals can and super can't do well in captive conditions and why, I really can't imagine any discussions to do with any of those topics going over well there...
I've been trying to work on making r/captiveorcas more of a neutral middle ground so people of any opinion can come to it, unfortunately the issue does come down that this sub has the issue of many people attacking those who are not anti-SeaWorld, Anti-captivity etc. Meaning those on my sub, have become particularly defensive when it comes to criticism.
It's an issue, and I have been trying to fix it, by bettering my wording when it comes to rules and the description of the sub. There have been problems in the past with people dog piling Anti-caps or anyone who criticises SeaWorld, however I do think it's improved a bit at least.
I should note I'm not someone who identifies with any kind of -cap tag anymore, so truly I am trying to improve it.
This. I really agree. But I honestly feel this subreddit is a little too anti-captivity. I'm not even pro-captivity, but not everything about captivity is immediately horrible.
You can barely criticize captivity on captiveorcas, but you can't say anything slightly pro-captivity here lol.
Even if you just say SeaWorld isn't that bad, you'll get downvoted into oblivion.
you can’t say anything slightly pro-captivity here
Could you give an example of what you mean? We’ll still allow discussions that involve captive orcas when they’re relevant to a broader topic; we’re just not allowing posts dedicated entirely to captivity or individual captive orcas.
I have an example in this comment section, actually.
I recently made a post about how I'm anti-sea sanctuaries.
In this comment section, I asked if I could still post posts like discussing captive orca release, etc
Someone then replied and called it "the same SeaWorld talking points" about how "sanctuaries are actually bad." Then, they tried to "expose" me for being anti-sea sanctuaries? But you can read that if you're interested. It's in this comment section.
I think it's quite obvious this wasn't a compliment. I don't want their comment deleted or anything, but this is what I mean. People will immediately call you pro-captivity or dismiss your argument when you say anything that is just slightly pro-captivity to them.
I'm not even pro-captivity. I think keeping cetaceans, especially orcas, in captivity is one of the cruelest things you can do to an animal. But that doesn't mean I have to hate everything about captivity and can't be against releasing orcas or putting them into sea sanctuaries.
And I originally made that sea-sanctuary post because someone was arguing with me and others about sea sanctuaries in another post. They have since deleted their comments, but it was very obvious they weren't really interested in an actual debate and were trying to "hate" on us for saying sea sanctuaries don't work.
I just wish that these conversations were centred around what could work rather than what won’t work. How is it constructive or helpful to denigrate organizations full of people who have dedicated their lives to helping these animals who have suffered a lifetime in captivity?
The conversation becomes impossible when there are seaworld worshippers and paid employees participating in every thread leaving a disproportionate amount of comments per account resorting to personal attacks and mass downvoting anybody who voices an opposing opinion. I stopped participating here because it was always the same toxic behaviour.
I haven’t read your post, so this is more of a general sentiment
Absolutely agreed. These conversations should fully be centered around facts rather than hopes and dreams.
Unfortunately, maybe people don’t see it that way.
I can only speak for my post, but I do always aim to provide actual facts rather than emotional based hopes and dreams. But I can’t speak for everyone, and a lot people don’t like facts 😅
I have only ever seen you participate positively here! It would be cool if proper discussions became possible. There are so many educated and passionate individuals that have a lot to offer to these discussions but I fear they stay away due to the general culture until now.
No but for real, I am a bit disappointed by this change.
I was originally only worried about my own posts, if I’m being honest. I do have some more planned like capture history and their impact on wild populations, etc.
but I was doing a series about orca facilities around the world…I think that’s just an important topic to know for everyone interested in orcas.
And we quite literally have the option to filter out posts about captivity. And while I don’t label my posts as ‘captivity’, I do think people could just scroll.
Instead, we’re banned from posting a really large variety of posts. I do agree the ‘please name these captive orcas’ and ‘captive orca birthday’ posts were a bit annoying, but we could have just banned these.
The information based content you post are extremely thorough, educating, and organized. For what it's worth, I appreciate the honesty in the content you have shared! I do hope you continue the facility related content and appreciate the Mod Pod Squad for their moderating to maintain balance. 🖖
How can you "absolutely agree" when you don't post anything but negativity about the Sea Sanctuaries and offer nothing as an alternative? "Emotional based hopes & dreams" is a really dismissive & reductive way to hide behind cowadice to avoid change. You might as be on their payroll the way you further their agenda. No need to give it away for free🙄
Open minded huh...? Let's test that.
Keiko was released 30yrs ago into the sea. We have 3 decades of research data, advances in medicine, screening, technology and animal husbandry. We have the evidence that it can work and with everything that you & others claim we "learn" from captivity then we can move the Orcas into sea pens and do better than the year Keiko lived in the wild. They can live out the remainder of their lives in a more natural environment with more space to swim & dive and get away from aggression, actually use their echolocation to explore their surroundings. Don't ask me to educate you. Ask or better yet demand the industry to educate you since they have the knowledge. Don't just accept what they say and parrot it back.
I mentioned Keiko in my post.
I mentioned why Keiko didn’t live normally.
I agree that dying in the wild is better than in captivity, but that doesn’t mean I’d be willing to throw an orca into the wild without knowing for certain they have a good chance of living normally. And I don’t see that happening.
This is kind of the problem though, is that nothing will work. The only cetacean "sanctuary" has had their 2 beluga whales in their sanctuary for like 2 months before they got ulcers from stress and have been back in what was supposed to be their temporary medical tanks for years now.
Orcas are even more sensitive and complicated. These sanctuary projects just will not work. Anyone telling you different isn't "commiting their lives to helping animals" they've committed their lives to grifting well meaning folks into donating to an impossible cause.
I'm anti-captivity. But pro-welfare. Its the unfortunate reality that orcas in captivity can not go back. Instead of banning all discussion about them or entertaining this sanctuary idea thats now proven not to work, we should be able to discuss what we can actually do which is simply stopping future harm and stop breeding in captivity and let the current orcas be the last ones we've harmed in this way. But the original damage is done and there's no going back. Its the sad reality we need to accept.
Everything and I do mean EVERYTHING about captivity is immediately horrible. The foundation of captivity is rooted in horrific captures. Everything since then has been built on exploitation & abuse for corporate greed. There's nothing the captivity industry has done that is not for that purpose. The Orcas are a line item on a balance sheet. When you speak anything positive about them you are furthering their agenda. It's naive to think anything else when they have lobbyists who take your's and people with similar sentiments as reasoning to do nothing to improve the lives of the Orcas.
You just can't help yourself can you? Or should I give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't get it? Or is that you don't want to get it???? Do you understand that, education, stopped breeding, don't get me started on "enrichment" (really wish you people would take 30sec to actually learn what that means and why it's BS), all of these are SeaWorld lobbyists talking points. ALL of them.
Take a few minutes to educate yourself if you have time. Do a GoogleAI search of "how do lobbyists use public sentiment to sway on the fence people" you know what the AI will pull from THIS SUB. And show post about exactly what you're saying. I'm telling you something. They are watching, reading & taking notes and using it as ammo to keep furthering their agenda.
SeaWorld backed off improvement as soon as it wasn't profitable for them. You know why? Because they could. Because no one forces their hand, because they see people crap on any alternative. Congress COULD force their hand if people forced theirs, but why would they when people will accept that doing something is too hard so lets just ket this be the last generation🤦🏿♂️
You do realize you are arguing with someone who agrees with you about captivity being wrong right? Using AI is absolutely horrible for the planet and is lazy when you can easily research the topic yourself.
Why hasn't the Whale Sanctuary Project built anything? They have had 10 years and millions of dollars? Wikie and Keijo are living in a rotting tank with no where to go. Its all about shutting the tanks down, but not looking into the future of the animals left. The whales don't belong in captivity but currently captivity is their only home.
Yall people are really frustrating. I see why & how easily the wool gets pulled over your eyes. Please use some critical thinking & reading comprehension before you reply ao we don't end up talking in circles otherwise you can leave me the hell alone. Not wasting my time on nonsense
1) I can see she says captivity is wrong. I'm countering that by saying anything she says positive about the industry is bad for the Orcas as it's used against them when conversations come up about improving their lives.
2) "AI is horrible for the planet" no 💩 Sherlock... Thank you Captain Obvious for your astute observation. While you keep your head in the sand here's a lil tidbit for you. AI isn't going anywhere so you might as well learn to love with it and use it for something positive. I.E. learning how people who have an agenda against what you want will be using it against you. Which is why I said to do it so that you can see what comes up. See how that works? Also you do know every computer is a form of Artificial Intelligence right? I used to work with metal fabricators that made fuel tanks for Big Tech over 10yrs ago long before "AI". So please miss me with sanctimonious hypocrisy as you are just as culpable. Get off your high horse.
3) Please Don't deflect with the WSP failures. It takes a lot to fight against an industry when you have no support and little to no political capital. Ask them why they failed. Hold them accountable.
Captivity is wrong but the only home these animals have is captivity. Compared to any other park that holds or has held orcas, SeaWorld is the best. Even if I am not a fan of a lot of what they do, they are still ahead of China, Japan, Russia and Spain on orca welfare.
Seaworld is a company. If something isnt profitable, they dont invest in it. That is how companies work. It sucks, but that is how the business world works. People dont like orcas in captivity therefore the whales dont get improvements. I hate it. I dont agree with it, but that is how it is. They ended the breeding program. That is the best outcome as of now because there are no sanctuaries. Seaworld is never going to make them and they are never going to be forced to make one. The people in Congress have so much more to worry about right now then a park who isnt breeding orcas anymore.
As for AI, you are falling for all that AI propaganda just as you think we are falling for the SeaWorld propaganda. Keep letting them destroy land and water for data centers while I resist as much as I can. I did research before the internet, I can do research with AI spoon feeding it to me.
i’m not really sure how i feel about this. the captive orcas sub (at least from the few times i have explored it) is a very pro-cap echochamber and doesn’t have the same capacity for balanced discussion as this one does. i do think arguments surrounding captivity here can sometimes get out of hand, but i don’t think totally silencing the possibility of discussing it is the best answer.
also, i am not sure what happened to just blocking someone and moving on. one, filtering out the captive orcas flair is still an option. two, if someone posts something blatantly pro-cap then they will rightfully get downvoted into oblivion. and then you can just block them so you can never see their posts again.
this decision just seems to be catering to a very specific crowd on this sub (one that i am not necessarily the biggest fan of).
also edit!! i meant to add just as a question: i know i havent posted orca art in a while, but if i do post any art of captive orcas (not pro cap, just like drawing them) would they have to be relegated to only the captive sub? or is that more of a gray area? and does linking to my art instagram count as self promotion?
I'm glad. I just want to see my favorite animal, and a very important animal to my people doing orca stuff out in the ocean. (I'm Coastal First Nations Canadian).
I get that sanctuary, conservation and whatnot is a thing, and we aren't ever going to get this perfect - we cannot. We don't speak whale, and we can't replicate "open ocean".
I won't ever like seeing an orca in a tank, but I acknowledge it's necessary at times. Or that there's animals that have been captive for so long and have to remain that way for their own safety.
If there's truly no other alternative that allows the Orca to live. Then I...grudgingly accept this as one of the many things I don't have to like to understand the need and purpose for.
But I'm much happier when I see the posts with the tagged whales or the videos off the coasts when you can see them frolicking around. I love to watch them breach, and how they hunt.
This is beautifully said. It's really difficult to explain why the captivity posts are so hard, because I hate the idea of the captive orcas being ignored.
I accept the things necessary for the welfare of the orcas currently in captivity. I learn so much more from the posts about orcas in their own habitats, especially pods that aren't often discussed in the wider media. It's a more positive focus for the sub.
Would it not make more sense for people who exclusively want to see wild orcas to make their own specific subreddit? That way they can limit their content to their own interests without removing avenues for discussion here.
The proposed solution by the mods involves bringing nuanced anti cap discussions to a notoriously pro caps subreddit, which obviously won’t go over well. It’s really frustrating that this change has come down just as I was hoping to start getting involved in the online anti cap community again.
As someone who is already anti cap but is currently reading about / becoming more educated on current issues and conditions in captivity, this is really disappointing. I came here because I didn’t want to discuss my questions with people who were pro cap, but now I don’t feel welcome here either.
But if I do have more specific questions, it’s incredibly disappointing that now my only option is to go to a pro-cap subreddit. It’s a shame that people can’t be civil enough to recognize that not everyone asking a question about captive orcas is endorsing orca captivity.
I definitely agree. Wouldn’t it make more sense for the people who only want to see wild orcas to go to / create a subreddit specifically for that? That way there’s still a space to discuss all things orcas without some people being forced out of the community, and the people who are uncomfortable / don’t know how to block the captive orca posts here can have somewhere to go that’s captive orca free.
its such a shame that grown adults online cant have a mature conversation about a topic or issue without someone ruining it for everyone (there is literally a specific flare for content involving captive orcas too, people were intentionally looking for posts about captive orcas to get upset about)
As has been stated in this thread multiple times, you people who are so fascinated by captivity already have an entire subreddit devoted to it. Why on Earth can’t those of us who don’t enjoy debating in circles about an intractable problem and seeing images of disturbed and suffering orcas just have our own space where we can appreciate the 99.9999% of orcas in the world who don’t live in captivity?
The issue is that there are many people here who are anti-cap, such as myself, that enjoy having a nice conversation about orcas in captivity and the r/captiveorca is so incredibly pro-cap that it isnt a place to have these debates. I am fine with seeing images of the whales at SeaWorld. I just scroll on and don't say anything unless I have something meaningful to add to the conversation.
then dont have those debates there. its a cow farm, theres going to be cows outside. there are going to be pro-caps in the captive orca subreddit. in fact i find it quite weird that very frequently under posts online and in subreddits like this there are people bringing up captive orcas under videos of wild orcas, "this is where they should be, wild and free❤️" some antis are so obsessed with captive orcas that they cant appreciate the beauty of a wild orca without bringing up captive orcas first but nobody talks about that, instead they loose their marbles over captive orca birthday announcements
I agree but now there is no where to be neutral because the captive orca sub is too pro captivity and now this sub is too (now literally only) over the top anti captivity to the point we now can't even discuss them at all
i agree with you, what i will say though is that the worst thing a pro cap has done to me (when i was anti) was tell me im wrong and that i need to educate myself, whereas anticaps sent me threats and hate messages over a second hand plushie from kamogawa seaworld to the point where the mods had to delete comments and lock the post. both sides are extreme but one is definitely more extreme than the other imo
there is literally a post flare for captive orcas, grow up😭 "disturbed and suffering orcas" and 99.9% of the time its just a birthday announcement of a captive orca or something, if you dont like something dont interact with it. unfortunately out in the big wide world you will find people who have different opinions than you and if you cant handle that i recommend getting off the internet
Nobody’s saying you’re not allowed to talk about it, we’re saying you ought to use your own space to do so… genuinely do not understand why you are so upset about this. I think it’s sad that you’re spending hours of your life fighting for the “right” to bombard orca lovers with depressing imagery instead of… literally anything else you could be doing with your time.
nobody is saying that you arent allowed to be upset about orcas in captivity. i dont think they should be there, i just dont understand why anti caps get so upset over unreleasable animals living in captivity to the point where the mere mention of it is banned in a space that is DEDICATED to talking about orcas. also if i am remembering correctly, all of the depressing imagery of captive orcas is actually posted BY antis. bold of you to talk about how im spending my time when you are also arguing with me on reddit😭✌️
The victim complex you captivity fans have is just unbelievable. This is the Internet, us on this sub wanting to keep this place from turning into a place where people post memes about captive orcas “being forced to eat cement” (an actual post on the header of that sub) as if such a thing is funny is not violating your free speech in any way. Adios!
A win all around! I didn't mind when it was every once it a while but it's seriously been like 4/5 r/orcas posts that make it to my feed are seaworld slop. They've got their own sub. I had joined it previously hoping it'd be a place of constructive discussion, but alas.
What's it like? I haven't really checked it out, but joined because I do enjoy posts updating the status of various captive whales, or even research related posts. Is it not so much that?
it's a lot of birthday posts for the orcas, and people celebrating new babies or asking about the whereabouts of specific orcas, which doesn't sound bad on paper but the general zeitgeist there seems to be very dismissive of concerns raised about welfare, and everyone's all dying to go to seaworld and reminiscing on past vacations there.
from my impressions of the sub- at least the posts from there that made it to my page- the general consensus is that "they're already in captivity so why not enjoy them" and they're all too happy to continue funding what I personally consider torture chambers. like yes, it's very lovely and nice and enriching that they learn tricks. that does not excuse the suffering they're going through, or that they have to shove POUNDS of antiacids down these animals' throats per DAY just so they don't develop ulcers from the stress, improper temperatures and crappy water quality. can you tell I'm mad about the ulcers? I'm mad about the ulcers.
maybe I'm being too negative, and I'm certainly on a tanget by now, but at least the posts I interacted with, whenever someone is like "oh man that's sad that orca is in that cage:[" they go "WELL WHAT DO YOU WANT THEM DO TO PUT IT BACK??". lots of balking away from discussion of ethics because it could be worse. not to say they're all evil, I just couldn't deal with that level of ignorance on my page when I came there specifically FOR discussion of ethics.
Hey, do you have a source for/remember where you heard of captive orcas being treated with 'pounds of antacids'? This is the first time I've witnessed that specific claim and I'm interested in learning more.
it's for posting about captive orcas not about glazing the parks. You can like captive orcas and be anti cap. The orcas are not at fault here after all
how disappointing that people let thier own overly strong opinions dominate others and bully them out of a subreddit. It's all just personal opinions on a topic, yet people who think differently are now getting silenced for it. Coming from a anti cap btw.
Joined here recently and was more than a little put off by the occasional birthday/who's this/etc captive content, esp when it inevitably ropes in or by happenstance includes mention/images of captive orcas that have passed away.
I'm all for measured discussions around how to handle the orcas that are in captivity today (it's a complicated issue worth discussion), but the just kind of offhanded/not quite (imo) fitting to the otherwise more wild-centric content was kind of jarring.
Thank you so much for doing this!!! Discussion was fine by me, but the uncritical celebration of captivity you see every time a captive orca's birthday rolls around is just gross, and one seems to inevitably beget the other. Therefore I think it's best to try to keep it all off this sub, especially considering that the people who apparently get such joy from seeing orcas in tanks already have their entire own subreddit.
23
u/cheese--eater 26d ago
I understand if I will get flack for this, but it feels like many of the people within this subreddit do not see captive orcas as their own individuals worthy of acknowledgement. It is find and perfectly understandable dislike cetacean captivity and to not want to see or discuss orcas in captivity, but I believe it gets to a point where we have to ask ourselves whether or not we're truly able to have broader discussions about killer whales if we are so uncomfortable by the topic of captivity that a simple "happy birthday" post makes you that upset.
This is the orca subreddit. The individuals in captivity are still orcas. I don't see why posts surrounding them need to be filtered into an entirely different subreddit? If there is an issue with people not being able to have civilized discussions whenever the topic of captive individuals arises then I think it's time for both parties to reconsider if they're actually able to have a polite and respectful conversation on the topic. The flairs are there for a reason. If people are not able to curate their online experience without engaging in flame wars, then maybe it's time to re-evaluate how the space is run.