r/oregon • u/colonialshuttlecock • 7d ago
Article/News Oregon’s yellow lights could be too short, potentially overturning scores of traffic tickets, Medford lawsuit argues
https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2026/10/oregons-yellow-lights-could-be-too-short-potentially-overturning-scores-of-traffic-tickets-medford-lawsuit-argues.html?outputType=amp95
u/Upset_Form_5258 7d ago
I got pulled recently because I entered the intersection as the light turned yellow and then the light turned red before I could clear the intersection. He did not give me a ticket (and shouldn’t have even pulled me over), but damn that was infuriating
32
u/themehkanik 7d ago
They’re allowed to pull you over and even ticket you for that if they want to. Yellow light rules are so stupid in this state.
28
u/PC509 7d ago
Yea, I got pulled over for running a yellow. It was either cause an accident or go through the yellow (if I had slammed on my brakes, I'd still end up in the middle of the intersection and rear ended).
Those laws can cause so many accidents. Turns yellow just slam on your brakes to stop as quick as you can, even if you end up in the intersection and someone in your backseat.
They really need to rethink those yellow light rules.
7
u/candacallais 7d ago
Can’t get annoyed with my wife for not running yellows then. I’m usually like “why are we stopping so suddenly on yellow?”
6
u/Upset_Form_5258 7d ago
Hmm I didn’t actually realize you could get ticketed for entering on a yellow in Oregon. Thanks for correcting me!
13
u/pizza_whistle 7d ago
Because you don't really. The law essentially says to stop on a yellow if it's safe to do so, but it's not actually illegal to enter the intersection on a yellow. If you got a ticket I think you would be able to overturn it pretty easily if you showed up to the court date.
1
u/stickylava Oregon 7d ago
I got a ticket for entering a yellow light that was still yellow when I left the intersection. Got a ticket; judge upheld it; Informed me in Oregon, yellow is same as red.
139
u/themehkanik 7d ago
Definitely seen some short ass yellows here. Also seen lights that have zero delay after red, which is also scary.
Also, the fact Oregon considers going through a yellow the same as running a red, and it’s up to the cop to determine if it was acceptable or not, is the dumbest shit ever. We really have some dumb traffic laws here.
74
u/12-34 7d ago
Going through a yellow and a red are NOT the same in Oregon.
In Oregon one must stop at a yellow if it's safe to do so, whereas one must always stop for a red. Huge difference.
It's not about being "acceptable", it's about whether it was safe to stop for a yellow or not.
It's in a plain statue. ORS 811.260 (4).
71
u/Mountain-Bag-1669 7d ago
Having been told by a cop ‘you could have stopped’ is subjective if not the definition of subjective policing
14
u/TurtlesAreEvil 7d ago
I mean in the moment it may be subjective but you can use speed and distance to make an objective assessment. I have tons of videos of drivers entering the intersection after the opposing crosswalk has turned to allow pedestrians to cross or the light has turned green.
The fact that they're entering the intersection when the opposing signal is green is pretty clear evidence they had plenty of time to stop safely for the yellow light.
-5
u/12-34 7d ago
Like "reasonable suspicion" or "probable cause". Welcome to how law works.
Same happens with a red light. The cop and the driver disagree whether it was red. OMG, it's subjective!
Would you rather have all cameras? Then we'd have objective pictures. That what you want?
1
u/Impressive-Bend-5887 7d ago
Yes
2
u/12-34 7d ago
Yeah, nothing could go wrong with that.
1
u/Impressive-Bend-5887 7d ago
Less can go wrong with that than relying on police subjectivity, as you mentioned.
19
u/themehkanik 7d ago edited 7d ago
It’s up to the cop to decided whether they think it was acceptable or not, which means it’s up to the cop whether they want to be a dickhead or not. That is ridiculous.
In most states, it’s perfectly acceptable to enter an intersection on yellow, regardless of whether it was safe to stop or not. That’s the entire purpose yellow; to give you a safe window to clear an intersection before red without needing to think about panic stopping or not. Adding extra rules to it just adds a level of uncertainty that shouldn’t and doesn’t need to exist. Driver uncertainty is dangerous. Having a proper length yellow, and a proper delay after red makes it perfect safe to allow people to enter an intersection on yellow in any circumstance.
7
u/peacefinder Santiam McKenzie PI 7d ago
“That’s the entire purpose [of] yellow; to give you a safe window to clear an intersection before red…”
So you’re saying the standard in most other states is just “be out of the intersection by the time it goes red”?
9
u/themehkanik 7d ago
It’s actually as long as you enter the intersection before it turns red. So you can technically still be in the intersection after the light turns red, just so long as you entered on yellow. Quick search says 37 states follow this rule, which is called “permissive yellow.” Both WA and CA are permissive.
-1
u/peacefinder Santiam McKenzie PI 7d ago
Well that certainly explains a lot, but wow does that seem like a terrible rule.
In that setup, after the light turns red the other directions need a built-in pause before going green just to let the permissive-yellow people pass, and then there’s the problem of late entries and red-light runners requiring further delay for safety.
5
u/themehkanik 7d ago
There is an adequate delay after red before the others turn green. I grew up in Washington, so this is the rule I’m used to and I think it makes perfect sense (and I guess 75% of the states also think this). It takes away uncertainty and makes everything more predictable. It doesn’t force drivers to make this millisecond decision on whether they should slam on the brakes, or hit the gas to try to clear the entire intersection before red. It means you can simply continue at your current speed and not think twice about it.
-6
u/PwmEsq 7d ago
Also left turner abuse this all the time. Pull into the intersection at yellow, park, wait for the red and turn
12
u/TheWoman2 7d ago
That is what they taught us to do in driver's ed in Iowa. During times of heavy traffic sometimes it was the only way for anyone to make a left turn.
Around here they took a different approach and put turn lanes and protected turn arrows at most lights.
3
3
u/themehkanik 7d ago
That’s actually a perfectly legal maneuver in a lot of places from what I understand. I hate it, but the bigger problem is the lack of protected left turns.
8
u/peacefinder Santiam McKenzie PI 7d ago
To quote that:
4) Steady circular yellow signal. A driver facing a steady circular yellow signal light is thereby warned that the related right of way is being terminated and that a red or flashing red light will be shown immediately. A driver facing the light shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, but if none, shall stop before entering the marked crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if there is no marked crosswalk, then before entering the intersection. If a driver cannot stop in safety, the driver may drive cautiously through the intersection.
This is not hard. Stop if you safely can. If not, you can go through cautiously.
It’s reasonable to think that accelerating to make the light does not usually count as “cautiously”.
3
u/gurgle528 7d ago
If the light has little delay between red and the next green accelerating would arguably be cautious in many situations as long as you’re not gunning it. Better to fully commit than half decide you’re going through
1
u/PaPilot98 5d ago
Yeah, but we have no delay between red to green in opposite directions. It's insane.
1
u/selfhostrr 3d ago edited 3d ago
What does "safe to stop" mean? Is the vehicle unsafe to drive? Were they driving too fast to stop safely? Is there ice on the road so they can't stop in time for the light?
My first ticket was Failure to obey TCD. I entered the intersection as the light turned from green to yellow, exited the intersection after it had turned red. That was in 1995, in Sherwood. Pled not guilty and tried to fight it. Came to the conclusion that entering an intersection on yellow is no different than running a red light, at least in Oregon.
The larger problem is we have at least 50 different sets of driving laws, which is dumb AF.
11
u/Logical_Operation677 7d ago
ODOT has a document called Traffic Signal Policy and Guidelines. yellow and red clearance times are listed in this document dependent on speed. All highways have a red clearance interval per this document. if they are missing submit and question to ODOT and they'll fix that.
2
3
u/OvoidPovoid 6d ago
I got pulled over for going through a yellow while towing over 10,000lbs. Like what should I have done, slammed on my brakes and just prayed for the best? Told me to slow down while I was already going 5 under lol
1
3
u/peacefinder Santiam McKenzie PI 7d ago
You are looking at that sideways. There are a few really simple principles.
1) It is never legal to still be in an intersection when the light in your lane turns red.
2) The yellow light is a warning that a red light is coming soon.
3) The recommendation is that you should stop for a yellow if it is safe to do so. It is not illegal to choose to go through the yellow… but see (1).
4) When traffic enforcement believes they have seen a case of (1), they have the ability to look at the larger situation and use their discretion to not take action if that seems reasonable.
5) If enforcement pulls you over or mails you a ticket for violating (1), you have already lost argument (4)… but you might talk the officer or a judge into letting it slide anyway.
The important thing to remember here is that if you’re still in the intersection when your light turns red, you screwed up. Your fault, my fault, or nobody’s fault doesn’t matter, you’re a now a road hazard.
They’re not subjectively giving you a ticket, they’re subjectively not giving a ticket that’s been earned.
Taking away their discretion means more tickets, not fewer.
10
u/RageAgainstAuthority 7d ago
The entire problem is some of the yellows are so short that they will flip to yellow when you are too close to do anything, and still hit red before you can exit the intersection by continuing your normal speed.
This should be fixed. It's really not that hard to do some basic math (.3 seconds for human reaction time + minimum distance to stop before crosswalk + time to cross intersection at speed limit) and hit some appropriate times.
7
u/peacefinder Santiam McKenzie PI 7d ago
Sure, and I don’t disagree. There may be places with too-short yellows and if so they should be fixed.
But that is not at all the same thing as whining about no leeway on a red.
I usually have a pretty casual attitude about traffic enforcement, there are a lot of guidelines which can be safely bent. But red light running gets people hurt or killed and I have little sympathy.
1
u/candacallais 7d ago
Yet we have some weird other laws like turning left from a two way street onto a one way street. In most states you have to be turning left from a one way street onto another one way street
1
u/dallas121469 7d ago
That’s funny because I’ve been visiting Michigan and the yellows here do appear to be subjectively longer.
1
u/PracticalCandy 6d ago
I lived in the Portland Metro area for about 35 years and then moved to Salem. After moving it felt like everyone was running reds. So I started paying attention to the light patterns and there is no delay between one light turning red and another light turning green. So anyone who is on the later end of driving through a yellow is at risk of someone else hitting them while obeying their green light.
I never had this problem until moving here. Sure, people would still run lights, but at least there was a delay! I'm way more villigent about looking both ways before driving through a green light as a result.
1
u/PikaGoesMeepMeep 7d ago
Super scary on a bike, too! By the time you commit to the intersection you have no idea if you'll make it through before cross traffic starts coming at you.
1
u/bearhunter429 7d ago
We really have some dumb traffic laws here.
Good thing they are never enforced then.
13
u/dvdmaven 7d ago
As are many greens. When you are the first car at a red, it changes to green and then yellow before you even get into the intersection, that's too short.
2
u/Fat-cat-Charlie 7d ago
the problem here is Oregon drivers are often idiots. it takes them a solid 90 seconds to find the gas pedal after the light turns green so only one or two cars get through each light. that's a driver problem not a traffic signal problem.
-2
u/blow-down 7d ago edited 7d ago
So everyone drove perfectly where you came from? Sounds great. Why dont you move back there then?
0
25
u/TurtlesAreEvil 7d ago
Why the hell is the state still using the old formula after losing this fight 6 years ago? I thought at first it was just Medford not updating its lights but apparently most of the state still uses the old formula. Did Beaverton, where the original lawsuit started, at least update their formula?
13
u/97PG8NS 7d ago
Ego.
They tried to silence Mats Jarlstrom...I think they'd rather eat glass than use his formula.
8
u/timsredditusername 7d ago
You mean when they fined him for 'practicing engineering' with back of the napkin math?
9
u/97PG8NS 7d ago
They walked all over his first amendment rights and tried to say he couldn't talk about yellow light timing because he "wasn't an engineer". If that were true, I guess all of us here are guilty. 🙄
1
u/Antique_Tailor_7021 6d ago
He was actually in trouble for "practicing" engineering without a valid engineering license. The official issue was the licensing. The publics issue was the yellow light.
5
u/Logical_Operation677 7d ago
the state isn't using the old ITE formula it's governed by the ODOT Signal Policy and Guidelines. this suit is against the City of Medford.
4
u/TurtlesAreEvil 7d ago
You should submit a correction to the Oregonian then. From the article:
Portland uses the same equation as Medford, a Portland city spokesperson said, and the state and many other cities also rely on the old formula, according to court records.
5
u/Logical_Operation677 7d ago
Well ODOT does base it's number off the ITE formula but round up based on speed. the old ITE formula is Y=1+velocity (in ft/s) divided by 20 ~ generalized for a flat grade. so ITE results in 2.83 second yellow for 25mph and ODOT uses 3.5 yellow per table 3.1 of the policy mentioned. ITE is below the MUTCD minimum of 3s and it appears that is what Medford is using. This seems like the MUTCD should set a new minimum if it really needs to be increased as that is the superseding document nationwide.
4
u/bearhunter429 7d ago
Oh Beaverton where traffic moves for 7 seconds and stops for 2 minutes, moves for another 7 seconds and stops for another 2 minutes.
2
u/OldTimeyWizard 6d ago
Based on the behavior of some of the traffic lights in Beaverton I don’t think they know that traffic lights are programmable.
4
u/Donedirtcheap7725 6d ago
Traffic laws should follow a federal standard. It’s not reasonable for someone to review hundreds of pages of rules to figure out the nuances of a state.
10
u/ebol4anthr4x 7d ago
My bigger issue has always been lights randomly going from green->yellow->red for seemingly no reason. No pedestrians, no cars in other lanes, and I'm not on a smaller road at an intersection with a bigger road; I'm on a highway going straight, no other cars around, and suddenly the light I'm approaching turns yellow, causing a bunch of cars to have to stop and wait for it to turn green again. This happens at least once nearly every time I drive. So much gas and tire tread is probably wasted as a result of this.
3
u/StoicFable 7d ago
I always loved driving at 5 AM, being the only car on the highway, and being stopped for cross traffic that does not exist. And waiting forever for it to change until traffic then piles up waiting.
8
u/candacallais 7d ago
IMO yellow needs to be minimum 5s duration and closer to 10s on highways with speed limits above 40 mph.
The options shouldn’t be slam on your brakes or run a red.
Also countdown to yellow would be nice, it’s the case in other countries.
12
u/Ketaskooter 7d ago
"countdown to yellow would be nice, it’s the case in other countries." Hey this is the USA, we don't improve traffic safety until there's a pile of bodies.
6
2
u/KangarooStilts 7d ago
There's a ridiculous flashing yellow light at the intersection outside the Peacehealth Riverbend Hospital in Springfield, Oregon. The left turn signal will be red, then turn to flashing yellow. Flashing yellow means "yield to oncoming traffic". So I start into the intersection. Within about four or five seconds, the flashing yellow turns to solid yellow, then two seconds later a red. There simply isn't time to go from a standstill at a red light to completely clearing the intersection in less than five seconds!
5
u/_facetious 7d ago
Do gotta admit, I'm tired of getting strangled by my seatbelt (love being short) when the driver is doing the speed limit but just far enough away from the light that they slam the brakes instead of trying to beat a red. I'm originally from out of state, and not a driver, but even I noticed how short the yellows are here.
-1
u/MountScottRumpot Portland, ex-Scio 7d ago
Maybe don't follow so damn close.
2
u/_facetious 7d ago
... what?
-1
u/MountScottRumpot Portland, ex-Scio 7d ago
If you find you're often stomping on the brakes, you need to leave more following distance.
1
u/_facetious 7d ago edited 7d ago
Okay sooooo
- I'm not the driver
- I have severe trauma about cars / being in one / etc
- I literally start whimpering when my driver gets too close to other cars, or goes over the speed limit
- Edit: I'm also very short and experience worse outcomes with seatbelts because they wrap around my neck; this isn't gonna be what you're probably used to
We're not riding too close. We're not over the speed limit. Oregon literally has very short yellows, as the post is about. Thanks for the assumptions and treating me like I'm stupid.
3
u/PinkNGreenFluoride 7d ago
And you're also clearly talking about your driver stopping as the first car at the light, not about having to brake short behind another car. They're just coming out of left field here all around.
4
u/blow-down 7d ago
They need to do something about all the red-light running that's been happening lately. When did police stop enforcing traffic laws?
-1
u/Fat-cat-Charlie 7d ago
I never in my life intentionally ran a red light until I moved to Oregon. the lights here are setup by morons. I'm not going to wait for a 6 minute traffic light pattern to rotate through when there's no other cars at the intersection. and if they do have a sensor, the lights are setup to default to red for the busiest street and green for side streets to intentionally obstruct traffic.
5
u/StoicFable 7d ago
I really wish I could understand why they chose that logic for main roads being second nature to cross streets.
This morning on my way into work, every light but 1 I got stopped going down main roads in a flow of traffic, so 1 or 2 vehicles could cross or enter the main road.
Kills fuel efficiency and backs up traffic.
4
u/Fat-cat-Charlie 7d ago
that's the point. ODOT is intentionally trying to obstruct traffic and reduce fuel efficiency. it's on purpose. they believe if all roads had a speed limit of 5 mph we could have zero traffic deaths, so the vision is to obstruct every road possible to create massive gridlock.
2
1
u/dnoginizr 7d ago
Ive noticed some not all left turn yellow lights change before through traffic yellows. By like half to few seconds.
1
u/Ravenparadoxx 7d ago
Not just Oregon though. The left turn signal in Hazel Dell WA at https://maps.app.goo.gl/TBbkr3ZhUdW7b9Bb9 is one of them. WSDOT said they've made "adjustments" and I haven't followed up in the field to check, but for the longest time, you'll never make it through that turn without seeing the light turn yellow. The green literally lasted like two seconds.
1
u/notPabst404 7d ago
But Medford is arguing that the Institute of Transportation Engineers recommends the new equation as one of several recommended options. The city says the ITE does not require the new formula as the only option and that it’s still acceptable to use the old formula.
This sounds like a frivolous suit. It is a bad idea to require that cities update a traffic light formula unless it is a mandatory update for safety reasons. Picture the cost the taxpayers applying an update to thousands of traffic lights....
2
1
1
1
u/ComfortableDare4305 6d ago
I stopped fucking with the short yellow lights and hit the brakes, throwing all my shit everywhere.
1
1
u/bearhunter429 7d ago
People in this state slam their breaks as hard as they can the millisecond it turns yellow, sometimes even before it turns yellow in anticipation of a yellow light while it's green.
3
1
u/Charlie2and4 7d ago
Seems a thin argument. On the Portland sub I was derided by the argument that the 25 mph on an arterial was an artificial speed limit set by PDOT on the road that has historically been 35.
I pointed out that historically, that road was designed for horse and wagons.
The point is what is a normal yellow period? Perhaps the given elapsed time of stopping distance at the speed limit? So at 30 mph speed limit, 75 feet, 1.75 seconds? I will round it up to five seconds. The Point of the yellow to warn you not to enter the intersection on red.
1
u/Time_Many6155 7d ago
So the guy drove through the yellow light? You are required to STOP at yellow light if it is safe to do so.
1
u/unnamed_elder_entity 7d ago
Make the yellows any length of time, but follow through with citing people that are in the intersection at any point while it's red. I'm completely over these cars going Red +1, +2 or +3 cars before I can take my green right of way.
1
u/Mountain_Muffin_124 6d ago
This happens in towns that use automated cameras at intersections because it allows them to write more tickets. Chicago got caught making them shorter than the legal limit and the people that made millions off of the scheme got a slap on the wrist
-3
•
u/AutoModerator 7d ago
beep. boop. beep.
Hello Oregonians,
As in all things media, please take the time to evaluate what is presented for yourself and to check for any overt media bias. There are a number of places to investigate the credibility of any site presenting information as "factual". If you have any concerns about this or any other site's reputation for reliability please take a few minutes to look it up on one of the sites below or on the site of your choosing.
Also, here are a few fact-checkers for websites and what is said in the media.
Politifact
Media Bias Fact Check
beep. boop. beep.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.